tary of state appears to have done every Mr. Henry Dundas commented on the papers, with a view to shew that the plan was a wise one; that it was attended to in the execution with assiduity and ability; that it was a plan of junction of co-operation, not a junction of the bodies of the armies; and that the noble lord had given orders to every officer to attend to that co-operation. Sir Richard Sutton thought the papers did not warrant the committee to agree to the proposed Resolutions, and that therefore they ought to be thrown out. Mr. Powys thought there was an impropriety in the measure, because general Burgoyne was absent. fairer prospect of success? Could the minister imagine that sir W. Howe would not give his assistance; or that general Burgoyne, finding himself disappointed in that expectation, would still persist, and not secure a retreat? The general speaks of his peremptory orders; they passed through sir Guy Carleton; and express, that general Burgoyne and col. St. Leger are to be put under the command of sir W. Howe; and until they receive order from him, they are to act at discretion; but they are never to lose view of their intended junction with sir W. Howe, as their principal object. They are to act at their discretion-is that peremptory? They are to have in view their junction with sir W. Howe; but until that junction is established, they continue to act as their discretion dictates. But, Sir, had the orders been the most peremptory that language can convey, they could not have been compulsory, when dangers and difficulties arose which could not be foreseen. Orders are given according to the appearance of things at the time they are issued; they cease, therefore, to be peremptory when affairs totally change. No general Lord North said it was proper for him would undertake an expedition, unless to rise, although the charge was not persomething was left to his discretion. Or-sonal against him as nothing was done by ders must be conveyed in general terms; and must be applied according to the intention of those who give them: they can be no otherwise interpreted, than to regulate that which is inconsistent with the general plan, and dangerous in itself, and to adopt such a line of conduct as shall most conduce to the end proposed. What was the end proposed by this expedition? By crossing the country, to produce a junction of the armies. The general's duty, therefore, was to obtain the end. The mind of man cannot furnish a reasonable ground to conceive that, at all events, however the face of affairs might change, let what difficulties might arise, let a situation be supposed, in which it was impossible for his army to escape being cut to pieces; yet that he was to proceed at all hazards. Such an interpretation would have destroyed the intent of the expedition; and it is not possible to imagine, that the general could consider himself bound to obey such orders, though he had received them from the secretary of state. Much more might be said; but I should precipitate myself into a condemnation of those I do not wish to mention. The expediency of the measure is apparent, the practicability of it obvious, and the secre Lord John Cavendish said, it would have been better if general Burgoyne was present; but thought there was matter enough in the papers to justify the resolutions. Mr. Burke supported Mr. Fox throughout. the noble lord, that had not the concurrence of all his Majesty's ministers, he must consider himself as included; and it was his duty to take his share in the crime, if any such was proved, and in the censure, if any such was passed. Lord George Germain followed lord North exactly. Mr. Dunning said, the noble lord had promised to send to general Howe the same orders he had given to general Burgoyne, but he positively asserted his lordship never did send them. After a long debate, the Committee divided: For the Resolutions 44; Against them 164. Mr. Fox, in great warmth, declared he would not make another motion; and taking the resolution of censure out of his pocket, tore it in pieces, and then went out of the House. As soon as Mr. Fox was gone, The Solicitor General moved, "That it does not appear to this Committee, that the failure of the Expedition from Canada arose from any neglect in the Secretary of State." The Resolution was agreed to by the Committee, but was never reported to the House. Debate on the Duke of Richmond's Mo+ test. tùm for withdrawing the Forces from America.] March 23. The House being in a Committee on the State of the Nation, The Duke of Richmond rose. He began with enumerating the several benefits which had resulted from the inquiries of the committee, namely, the ascertainment of the state of the army, the state of the navy, the general expenditure in consequence of the American war, and a particular investigation of a part of that expenditure; he declared that he thought it was owing to the committee that ministers had so far been brought to their senses as to set about something like an attempt to accommodate matters with the Americans, and to prepare a plan, which, however inadequate it might be, was certainly a plan of conciliation, inasmuch as it gave up many of the most obnoxious points in conThe main object he had in view, when he moved for the committee, was to lay a foundation for such measures as were most likely to promise respect and reputation abroad, and a re-union with our revolted colonies. The inquiry, so far as had yet appeared, went clearly to prove that our land force was totally inadequate to the purposes of either an offensive or defensive war; our trade had been most materially injured; such of our dependencies as we still retained possession of were in a most ruinous and defenceless condition; and our naval force on different sides of the Atlantic, he feared, was far from being in the flourishing state it had been so repeatedly described. He was happy, however, to discover, that our military force within the kingdom was much strengthened since the returns were made, on which, in the early stages of the committee, he had framed his resolutions. By the last returns on the table, it appeared that the old corps were become nearly complete, consisting of 19,000 men, and the new levies already amounted to 8,000, and would probably at a very short period be quite full, which would amount to an additional force of 15,000 men: The public, he observed, were much indebted to a noble duke (Bolton), for that part of the inquiry into the state of the nation which he had undertaken, namely, the navy. His grace then mentioned the King's Message on the French ambassador's Declaration, and repeated, that he was sorry to see the Message couched in terms of warmth and anger, and still more sorry to see their lordships take up the business in the same style of resentment. More fully to support this opinion, the duke desired their lordships to look back to their own history, and see what had been done on similar occasions. Queen Elizabeth, the most zealous for the preservation of the national honour of all the crowned heads who had possessed the throne of these kingdoms, assisted the Huguenots with 100,000l. and 6,000 men, although the Huguenots were actually the subjects of France, and were then in open arms against their sovereign. A remonstrance took place, but no war ensued. The same princess, when in perfect peace with Spain, assisted the confederates with a large sum of money, who were then endeavouring to throw off the Spanish yoke; and, what was more, Elizabeth, in her notification of this fact to the Spanish court, expressly said, that she lent the confederates the money, and assisted them with the men, out of her love and affection to her good friend, the king of Spain, having no other view but to preserve the states for him, and prevent their throwing themselves into the arms of France. This pretext, his grace declared, was not much relished by the king of Spain; however, that monarch thought it prudent not to take any serious notice of it, and no war broke out between the two kingdoms for some years. His grace said, the treaty entered into between France and America was certainly a defensive one, as it stated that France was determined to protect her commerce with America; a matter so obviously the consequence of her treaty, that it was exceedingly unnecessary to have stated it in her notification to the King's servants, and he heartily wished it had not been stated. If we attacked France, America was bound in honour to assist her against us; and if we could not conquer America singly, when joined with France, there appeared to be but little hopes of our success: he begged their lordships, therefore, maturely to consider the conse quence of a rupture with France, on the ground of the treaty; repeating, that commencing a war upon such a ground would not only confirm the independency of America, but put an end to all hopes of reconciliation with her on any terms. His grace next came to a consideration of what was proper to be done in the present situation of affairs; and earnestly pressed the ministry immediately to put the nation into a respectable state of defence. He highly applauded the measure of calling out the militia; but many other and of them a very large number were of necessity returned. Here the duke recurred to his former arguments respecting the independency of America; urging our acknowledging her independency, as the only probable means of accommodating our impolitic and destructive differences, and declaring that this country had still many friends there, who, upon our taking such a measure, would be furnished with a strong argument in our favour; and, by being enabled to convince their brethren that Great Britain had done every thing which throughout the quarrel they had said they desired, would, he doubted not, wean them from all thoughts of a connec tion with France, and induce them to make an honourable and lasting alliance with Great Britain. His grace concluded with moving, "That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, to desire that he will be pleased to give orders that all his ships of war and land forces be imme diately withdrawn from the ports and territories of the thirteen revolted provinces, and disposed of in such manner as his Ma matters were also necessary to be done. As the best way of learning what was necessary, he had looked back to the time of queen Elizabeth, and seen what measures were taken when this country was threatened with an invasion by the famous Spanish Armada. At that time we had an army of 40,000 men in the kingdom; and yet it was thought prudent to take a great variety of other measures for the public security. Engineers were sent down to fortify the vulnerable parts of the sea coast, forts were erected at certain distances, beacons put up in order to give signals to the army, the militia divided into different bodies, and marched to various parts to be ready at a moment's warning, and special directions were given to lay the country waste for a considerable extent wherever the enemy attempted to land, in order to check their progress, and to prevent their receiving any other subsistence but from their ships. Had any measures like these been taken? Had engineers been sent into the different maritime countries to mark out entrenchments, and to plan such sort of fortifications as the situations of the re-jesty in his wisdom shall think best calcuspective places made necessary? A general officer ought to be deputed to assist the lord lieutenant of every county; for a civil officer, however willing, however able in other matters, could not so well judge of the proper measures to be taken by an army as a military man, accustomed to service. Much remained to be done besides merely calling out the militia. His grace said he should now come to the subject matter of his motion; which he said the necessity of the times called for so pressingly, that he hoped it would at least meet with no resistance from any one of their lordships. The want of frigates, in case of a war with France, was so obvious, that it needed no argument to shew the propriety of getting some of them home: indeed, without them we could do nothing; for notwithstanding there might be many large ships fit for sea at home, he was well assured there were not seamen enough in the kingdom to man our navy; the reason was evident-so great a number were now on board our fleet in America, and on board the innumerable transports there, which had been sent out partly to carry the army, and partly to victual that army. As a proof of the difficulty of procuring seamen, his grace said there had last week been an exceeding hot press on the river, when he understood no more than 500 were got, [VOL. XIX.] lated for the defence of the remaining parts of the empire, in the difficult situation in which we are unfortunately placed; humbly beseeching him to take into his particular consideration the condition of England and Ireland, to repel a foreign invasion; and imploring him to take the most speedy and effectual measures for providing for the security of these kingdoms." The Earl of Sandwich said, that there were many objections to the motion at this time; whether it might not be proper hereafter to adopt the measure recommended by the motion, was more than he could pretend to determine. He differed widely from the noble duke, as to the manner, as well as the time; for granting, in argument, that the troops ought to be withdrawn, this House was not the proper place to declare it. Such a measure, thus publicly recommended, might furnish the means to our enemies of defeating it; therefore, he should oppose it, on the ground of inexpediency, and move that the chairman do leave the chair. ready to acknowledge, that there was a great scarcity of seamen, though no means whatever had been left untried by him to remedy that defect. It might be asked, how it happened that seamen came to be scarcer now, than at any former period? He knew but one, which was what had [3 Q] He was been asserted in argument by several noble lords on the other side; that we had not, as on former occasions, any American sailors, those, including the prisoners taken by the American privateers, with the crews of those privateers, amounting to 18,000; which, if we considered that those men were employed against us, made a real difference of 36,000 men. He was still of opinion that we had ships enough ready for sea, but was ready to acknowledge that ships without men were of little service. With regard to the want of frigates at home, there was no denying it; they were wanted extremely: but would declaring that want to all the world make it less? He censured the observations of the noble duke, as to the declaration which his motion carried in it, that England and Ireland were not in a fit state to repel an invasion. Is it, said he, politic to state to our enemies where our coasts are vulnerable? Is it prudent to declare that we are unable to repel an invasion? And, if the fact were so, is it wise to court an invasion? His lordship declared that the declaration from France was insulting and offensive; that ministers would have been highly culpable, had they not shewn a spirit of resentment; but that nothing had been done on their part, since the receipt of the King's message, which wore the face of irritability, or could be construed into a design to provoke a war with France. The Duke of Richmond replied, that the noble earl's speech confirmed, in so many words, almost every syllable he had said in behalf of the present motion. What, again, was the noble earl's repeated boastings relative to the formidable state of our navy come to? That we had ships, but that we could not procure seamen to man them-most melancholy tidings, indeed! The noble earl had thanked him for saying so little about the state of the navy. The reason of his being so short upon that subject was merely because the noble duke (of Bolton) who had managed the enquiry into the state of our navy a few days since, had gone so fully and so ably into the subject, as to leave him little or nothing to add upon it. The only appearance of a national objection made by the noble earl, was, not against the motion in point of necessity, but on the ground of policy and expediency-the mode in which it ought to be carried into execution-under the impervious colour of secrecy and silence. His grace laughed at such mock caution; as if our fleets and armies could be ordered home, or to other stations offensive or defensive, without the previous knowledge of the French court. He called upon the noble lord at the head of the Admiralty to declare, whether our navy was in such a state as to protect our several dependencies; because, if it was not, most certainly it was alone a full reason for strengthening those parts which_immediately called for protection. For instance, he would be glad to know, if our naval force in the East or West Indies was equal to the united force of France and Spain in those parts. If it was not, those places were at this instant at the mercy of these powers. He had strong reasons to believe, that the first blow would be struck in the eastern or western world. A considerable number of additional troops had been sent to the French West-India islands the year before last; and he was assured, by a person of veracity, lately returned from the East-Indies, that the French navy was much superior to ours in that quarter of the globe. The whole argument then turned upon the confidence ministers were entitled to. They have hitherto deceived us; they have brought us into our present lamentable situation; but they must not be directed or advised; because their past mismanagement, ignorance, blunders, and incapacity, is a sufficient pledge to us for their future ability to rescue us from the threatened ruin which is now ready to burst upon us. He concluded with complimenting a noble lord in a red ribbon (lord Amherst) on his being called into the cabinet; and congratulated the nation on the circumstance, as the most likely to promote its most essential interests. As he understood the noble lord would command the army in England, and would probably have the command of the forces to be employed against the enemy, if a landing should be effected; notwithstanding he had the highest opinion of the noble lord's wisdom, experience, and ability, he would take the liberty of giving him a piece of advice, and that was, not to suffer his judgment to be run away with by the vulgar idea of fighting the French the moment they landed, and driving them instantly back by a battle; but to consider that if a battle was lost, under such circumstances, the kingdom was lost; and that by wisely delaying to come to an action, he might, like another Fabius or Washington, prove the saviour of his country. a noble lord (Amherst) high in his profession, and who had performed such essential services for this country in the course of the late glorious war, under a Whig administration, was appointed to the command of the forces, and called into a situation to advise in his Majesty's councils, in all matters relative to his profession. He knew the noble lord was in principle a Whig, and he took the liberty of recommending to him, to be influenced by no extrinsic consideration, nor suffer himself to be thwarted or over-ruled, contrary to his own good judgment. The Duke of Manchester said, that men who had by their treachery to their country, or their blunders, plunged it into so calamitous a situation, ought not to be trusted a moment longer. His grace declared, that from the fullest conviction of what he now affirmed, he had been reduced to the necessity of standing in the odious light of a personal accuser; and had accordingly moved to address his Majesty, to intreat him to dismiss his servants, as no longer worthy of remaining in their public stations: that the same reasons which had induced him to make the motion still pressed upon his mind with additional force; for he could not entertain a momentary hope, either of reconciliation with America, of an honourable peace, or successful war with France, while those men, who had broken the ties of affection and duty which united America with Great Britain, remained in office; and he should conclude with an observation, often made, but of which every day's experience afforded some fresh proof, which was, the irresistible and all-powerful influence, which was sufficient to maintain such men in place, against the feelings and discernment, the hearts and understandings, of an insulted, disgraced, and, he feared, an undone people. The Marquis of Rockingham said, though it had been asserted that our fleet now ready for sea was fully equal to the protection of our coasts and the channel, was it so in respect of our dependencies? Had we at present a force sufficient in the East and West-Indies? Or, besides defending our coasts, for convoys for the security of our trade? So far from it, that he had heard one of the East India directors lately assert, in another place, that the chairman had been instructed by the court of directors to apply to a noble viscount in high office, Weymouth) by letter, stating their fears for the Company's possessions, and desiring an additional naval force: but the answer was, that none could be spared, or that none was wanting; and that but a very few days before the offensive Declaration. He was severe on lord Sandwich's affected secrecy and prudence relative to recalling the troops. Did the motion point out any particular destination for them? Were they to be ordered home to Europe, or did the motion express a wish of the kind? But supposing that it had, could the noble earl who moved the previous question point out the danger? The marquis said, he was well pleased to hear that The Duke of Grafton said, the crisis was such as justified the interference of every honest citizen who had any stake to lose. The public were intimately concerned in the event of the present measures. Every thing dear to them, as men, or citizens, was committed. The consequences of those measures would decide whether they were to possess their liberties and properties. If ministers were continued in power, who had proved themselves weak, wicked, and detestable, the people were justified to call on that throne [pointing to the upper end of the House] for redress, for a dismission of such ministers, and for the punishment due to their crimes. It was the duty of the sovereign to dismiss such men. The nation was patient, he feared too much so, under the various ills they suffered; but the time would come, and he believed was not far off, when their resentments would blaze out with a vigour proportioned to their former forbearance and repeated provocations. He would ask the most zealous friends of the present administration, if there was the most distant prospect of any one mea sure succeeding in their hands? Ministers were indeed honest enough not to pretend it. They had, in this instance, given one proof of their modesty and candour; they were silent. Are you able to conquer or conciliate America? Are you able to defend the several dependencies of the British empire? Are you more than a match for France and Spain in the European seas? Have you one ally on the continent of Europe? The answers to all this are reducible to a tacit No. They virtually reply, no, because they decline to answer. His grace observed, that the language of the noble earl was the most extraordinary he ever heard. It amounted fairly to this: We have been mistaken in every opinion we formed in private or declared |