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most essential claims of this country upon America, that they will not be indecently tenacious of objects which are certainly of infinitely less importance, though not less necessary to be relinquished, if parliament hope to keep or to acquire some friends in America, or conceive that for less than independence any part of the 13 provinces will now submit to make peace with Great Britain: "That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, to beseech his Ma

the other half. It was long, too long, thrown out to the public, that those who contended in parliament for equal liberty and equal happiness in every part of the British empire, were an American faction: whilst peace was attainable on such terms, ministers were accustomed to allow that America could only depend on such a faction for performance; a faction, Sir, who still must have the credit of not being apt to give up their opinions of public justice, nor affect to change their princi-jesty that he will be graciously pleased to ples; a faction, who warned these ministers over and over again, not to delay a treaty till such time as it should be necessary to exchange unconditional submission in America for unconditional submission in Great Britain; and most of whom I believe still look with astonishment at persons who seem to persevere in persuading Majesty, that nothing is inglorious for a king to be reduced to consent to, except to change his ministers.

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instruct the Commissioners, whom his Majesty may name for the purposes of carrying into execution the Act, entitled, An Act to enable his Majesty to appoint Commissioners, with sufficient powers to treat, consult, and agree upon, the means of quieting the Disorders now subsisting in certain colonies, plantations, and pro'vinces of North America,' that in case the said commissioners shall find that the continuance in office of any public minister, or ministers of the crown of Great Britain, shall be found to impress such jealousies or mistrust in one or more of the revolted colonies, as may tend materially to obstruct the happy work of peace and sincere conciliation between Great Britain and her colonies, that the commissioners may be enabled to promise, in his Majesty's name, the earliest removal of such minister or ministers from his Majesty's councils."

Mr. J. Johnstone seconded the motion. Lord Beauchamp objected to the mode of proceeding; asserting that the only parliamentary one was, to address his Majesty to dismiss those ministers who were odious to the people, or suspected of maladministration. But there was no occasion for such address, as he believed the present ministers were highly approved by the whole people of Great Britain and Ireland.

By every intelligence from America, and by the nature of man, I think it appears that America is not blind to past injuries. I think it is evident, that these ministers are odious, mistrusted, and abhorred there; and from that I infer, that the Americans will refuse to enter into any negotiation with the commissioners, if such ministers are to remain in power. Then, what will be the use of the conciliatory plan, even suppose it to be ever so perfect? Sir, is it not reasonable to believe the Americans will refuse to put any future confidence in men who have already betrayed them, murdered them with savage cruelty, abused them with the tongue of hatred, and appear to be rewarded instead of punished for having so done? May not the confidence with which such ministers trample on the subjects, cause them to go farther than mistrust of the minister, and materially affect his Majesty's honour? Must we force the Americans to give us more fatal proofs that they are neither cowards nor fools? Will they not justly attribute to a want of spirit in this country, not a want of spirit in that country, any idea of putting future confidence in zuch a ministry? And the delay of explanations and altercations would only tend to cement their connection with the House of Bourbon, and tempt all America to be unanimous for independency. In order, Sir, to counteract such misfortunes as much as is now possible, I shall move the fol-" lowing Address, trusting that as ministers are grown so very liberal in giving up the [VOL. XIX.]

Mr. Rigby said, that he liked to hear gentlemen speak out, as they now did; crying out against men, and not measures: that if they had not told him, they looked more to men than measures, he should nevertheless have been sure of it: that the Americans respected no one set of men more than another, and had as soon enter into treaty with the present ministers, as with those who passed the Declaratory Act.

Mr. For observed, that he thought, that since the time of old Cato, the doctrine of peccata omnia sunt paria" had been exploded: that he should not have thought the hon. gentleman had so particularly been [3 M]

given to the maxims of that order, as implicitly to adopt them; for that he himself saw great difference between the grievances, if there were any in the Declaratory Act, and those which had been the cause of the present war.

Sir Cecil Wray, though he wished the ministry should be removed, and even re moved out of the world, for the mischiefs they had brought on this country, if it could be done legally and constitutionally, yet opposed this motion as unconstitutional; if carried, it would not effect the purposes intended, of promoting a conciliation with the colonies. That to remove a minister, it must either be on the petition of the people who conceived themselves ill governed or oppressed, or on the address of the Houses of Parliament; but to give a power to a part of the empire to do this against the opinion of the rest (for that the ministry had acted in conformance to the opinion of the people he inferred, from the impossibility they would have had of prosecuting their plans if contrary to it) would be perfectly unprecedented, and might be a most dangerous example to futurity; as on every disgust in our own dominions, every ambassador to foreign parts might negociate away the undoubted constitutional rights of the executive power. Nor did he think it would be attended with any good consequence, in respect to the treaty now to be negociated with the colonies, if they entered into a treaty; what they would expect would be good terms, and good security for the perform ance of them. That he apprehended

America would demand better terms for herself when treating with her most avowed enemies, than she might from those whose general sentiments had been in favour of her proceedings; but that a removal, perhaps temporary, of any minister, could give no security for the performance of them. Had the motion gone not only to the removal, but to the utter exclusion, of all those who had poured poison into the ears of Majesty, with an appointment of men, and adoption in the King of different principles, some security might be desired from her; but that the security of the terms to America must be from the removal of the British armies, and the appointment of her own governors, and to this he apprehended we must agree. He did not apprehend we had given up any thing, in the laws lately passed, which of right belonged to us; that we never had any right to tax, or regulate the charters

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of America, without their consent; that the motion tended to give up the honour of this nation, in its essential points, without any possible advantages to ourselves.

Mr. Aubrey said, that he believed the last hon. gentleman who spoke, might find commissioners having power of dismissing ministers, and that of negociating for the repeal of all acts whatsoever, in the same page of the Journals; that notwithstanding what a right hon. gentleman had said, of all sets of men being alike to the Americans, he could assert from authority, that the Congress had repeatedly declared, that they never would treat with our present set of ministers, which was a strong implication, at least, that they would treat with another; that whether, indeed, they did this in imitation only of the magnanimous resolutions of our ministers that they would never treat with the Congress, he could not tell; that however, as the delenda est Carthago had been a favourite maxim on the Treasury-bench, when England had the superiority, he thought it might be reasonably expected, that the cry of the Americans would, in return, be at least the dismission of our ministers; that policy directed us to take every step to regain the affections of the Americans, but that it could not be hoped for, while our affairs were entrusted to those hands by which their country had been ravaged, and their friends and relations put to the sword. What reliance would the Americans put in the most pacific and most amicable declarations, when uttered by those mouths who had hitherto never talked of any thing less than checking the growth of the colonies, which he took to be only a milder and modester expression for what they afterwards, in fact, attempted, the starving and extirpating them. That it was with the concurrence of this ministry that lord Hillsborough pledged the faith of parliament, as well as the honour of his sovereign, that no alteration should be made in the system of taxation: a promise, which, as soon as it had served the purpose of allaying the discontents of America, they no longer regarded, or thought of, when interest prompted them to break it. And that interest was so trivial that it demonstrated they either thought very lightly of their honour, or else meant to introduce by degrees an important and an oppressive taxation: the very reverse of what they had so solemnly promised through the

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Here his lordship took an opportunity to complain of the very slovenly manner the accounts were drawn up in; whether through negligence or design he would not pretend to determine; though, he believed he might be well justified in saying, that they bore the strongest appearance of being rendered loose, inaccurate, intricate, or confused, in order to defeat the ends of the enquiry, which was to procure certain premises, whence con

Debate in the Lords on the Enquiry into the Conduct of the Transport Service.] March 12. The House went into a Com-clusions might be unquestionably drawn mittee on the State of the Nation.

to the satisfaction of every side of the House. This was evident throughout the whole; and had, indeed, been so successfully effected, that it would baffle the industry of almost any man, at least, one of his size of abilities, within the time limited, to arrange, connect, and fully digest the papers from the state they appeared in when laid on the table. He would mention a single instance; which was, that the clerks so far forgot their duty, or purposely with-held the performance of it, that they omitted to cast up a single account, or state a single total. This omission he was under the necessity of supplying, by getting a Mr. Heard, who would be called to authenticate the totals, to cast them up, in order, as he observed before, to found his resolutions on certain premises. Having then stated the tendency of the questions he meant to propose, he moved, that sir Richard Temple, a commissioner of the navy, be called in.

The Earl of Effingham opened the nature of the business he meant that day to agitate, namely, to shew that there had been a most scandalous want of œconomy in one department of the management of the public finances. The whole of the sum expended under the head which he was about to consider, the noble earl stated to be only 600,000l. which, as their lordships had been of late used to talk of millions as trifles, would probably to some of them appear so very a trifle, as scarcely to be worth their notice. He begged leave, however, to remark, that if a large part of so small a sum as 600,000l. was disposed of extravagantly, as he doubted 'not he should make appear, he was fully justified in argument, and if not otherwise satisfactorily cleared up, to conclude in fact, that the waste of the public money, upon the gross sum expended, must be enormous; and therefore every point which served to elucidate a matter of so much importance, was well deserving their lordships' attention. He proceeded to observe, that during the present fatal war, the Treasury, contrary to precedent, had assumed to itself a power, which he had ever understood to belong to the Navy board; the power of taking up ships for the Transport Service. As there ap-public dock-yards surveyed the ships, peared from the papers on the table, to be a considerable difference in the amount of the sums expended by the Navy board, and by the Treasury, upon this kind of service, he meant to call witnesses to prove the custom of taking up ships for transports by the Navy office, and the price that office paid for freight; others to

Sir Richard Temple proved, that it was customary for the Navy board, when ships. were wanted for the public service, to advertise in the news-papers for so many tons of shipping as were necessary. That the contract was always made with the person who sent in the cheapest terms. That when it was made, an officer of one of the

measured them, and reported whether they were such as were described in the contract. That the Navy-board had paid 10s. a ton for freight in the beginning of the war, but that in April 1776, they took up 25 ships, for the purpose of carrying the cavalry to America, for which they paid 12s. 6d. That those ships were of a par

ticular make and dimension. That the Navy board could at that time get no ships fit for the horses at a smaller price; but, that they had not since paid any more than 11s. That about the end of 1777, or the beginning of 1778, the Treasury had applied to the Navy-board, to know if they would undertake to provide for the transport service. That the board declined it, because they not only did not think it any part of their business, but had already more to do than they could well execute. That if they had undertaken it, it would have been impossible for the officer they employed to survey ships, to have done the whole duty. Upon his cross examination, sir Richard said, that he had heard, thit in the reign of queen Anne, a special conmission was issued, appointing commissioners to execute the business of taking up transports during the war, at the end of which the commission ceased, and the power reverted to the Navy-board. That it might be about four months since that application was made from the Treasury, to know if the Navy-board would undertake the service, which they declined. That the ships taken up for the purpose of exporting horses, were necessarily different from those used for other purposes.

Mr. Atkinson was examined. He began with declaring, that at one time, when the stores were to be conveyed to Boston, he contracted with government to send them there, but that he had since acted merely as an agent for the Treasury, procuring them ships for the transport service and receiving commission money in the same manner as was customary, when the same business was done for private merchants. His house had long had a connection with most of the ship owners in the kingdom; that whenever government applied to them for ships, the mode was, to write down to their correspondents in the several sea-ports, and when they had found such ships as were likely to answer the purpose of the Treasury, to have them measured and surveyed by a person they employed for that purpose; then to enter into a charter-party with the owners, of the same nature with the charter-parties drawn up by the Navy board; that the mode of payment was to pay the owners two months in advance as soon as the ships were taken up, and two months more at the end of four months. That for some time he had only paid, and been repaid, at the rate of 11s. per ton freight, but that government wanting several ships

in Jan. and Feb. 1777, he was under the necessity, in order to procure ships, to promise such owners as refused to contract, from a hope that the price of freight would be advanced, that if they would enter into a charter party at 11s. they should be advanced as soon as the Navyboard advanced in the price they paid for transports; that when the price for the 25 ships to carry the horses was raised to 12s. 6d. per ton, the owners insisted on his paying the same; that he contended, the 25 ships were for a particular purpose, and were not to be regarded as an example; that the owners, nevertheless, insisted on their bargains, and even threatened him with law suits, unless he paid them the advanced price; that as the service pressed exceedingly, he was under the necessity of complying; that at the desire of the Treasury, he had since written circular letters to the ship owners, endeavouring to get ships at a smaller price of tonnage; that he laid the answers he received before the lords of the Treasury; that it appeared from their answers, to be the resolution of the majority of the shipholders, not to contract for less than 12s. 6d. per ton; that if the Treasury had not continued to pay that price, the public service could not have been executed; that so many transports had been wanted, he had even been obliged to send to every ship-builder in the kingdom, and contract for such as were nearly finished and fit for the service: that he had also sent over to Holland and bought ships there; that although he paid ready money, in a manner, for the freight, and the Navyboard paid in navy-bills, which at certain times bore a considerable discount, the ship owners preferred a contract with the board, alleging, that when in their service they lay a considerable time in port, and were not wearing out their sails, tackle, and ships, so much as they were when employed by the Treasury, in continual voyages to and from America; that he had argued with the ship owners in order to persuade them to take less freight, and at last got them to accept of 12s. per ton. That they said they did not get much more by the Treasury at 12s. than they formerly had got at 11s. for that seamen's wages were raised 14s. per month, and as they must necessarily have seven men to every 100 tons, they consequently only received 2s. for each ship more for the freight than the addition of the seamen's wages amounted

to, and then it was to be considered, that provisions were increased in price.-Upon the duke of Richmond's asking him, what he received for commission, he said he used to receive 24 per cent. which was the standard price for such business among the private merchants; but that last July the lords of the Treasury sent for him, and after arguing upon the great number of ships taken up, desired to know, whether he could not do the business for less; that he said, he would leave the matter entirely to their lordships, and that they had since paid him only 1 per cent. commission. He was asked by lord Shelburne, whether he did not think the Lords of the Treasury had not been too hard upon him? he said, if he was to answer that question to their lordships, he must say he seriously He informed the House, that the mode of his settlement with the Treasury was, for him, once a month, to take to the board an account of all his contracts as they then stood, with the charter-parties and certificates of such ships as had fulfilled their contracts, and to receive what was due to him upon the whole. Thus, he had on Tuesday been paid all that was and would be due for the month of March. Mr. Heard proved that the totals of the accounts upon the table, to which the Resolutions intended to be moved by the earl of Effingham referred, were exact.

either or both services; and on that supposition strike off 28,000l. of the excess of expenditure, 150,000l. would still remain, which was in fact a waste of the public treasure to the amount of 25 per cent. the total being but 600,000l. When this was attentively considered, it must produce very melancholy reflections in the breast of every man, who had the interest of his country at heart. These premises fully authorised him to brand this transaction with its true name, a job; and that of the most disgraceful nature. It carried about it all its proper marks; it was a most beneficial contract, made in the dark, with a favourite contractor. Why not advertise as the Navy board had done? Why not try particularly when they found that the Navy board had lowered the freight? The Navyboard, said Mr. Atkinson, was the first occasion of raising the price; why not copy them throughout, and lower as well as increase the freight in imitation of them as they did so early as June 1776, and down to the latest accounts on the table. The witness has said in answer to this, that the Navy board took up but two ships in June, and eight in the ensuing December; therefore that the decreased demand from that board caused the freight to be lowered. He was ready to meet the objection, taking the argument either way. If the smallness of the demand could enable the Navy The Earl of Effingham then rose, and board to contract lower, the same cause after paying Mr, Atkinson an ironical should surely have produced a similar efcompliment, by declaring that his speech fect on the Treasury contract. If on the was the ablest defence of the Treasury other hand, the demand for transports conthat he had ever heard, descanted for some tinued equally pressing at the Treasury, it time on the evidence that had been given afforded the best possible opportunity to by the several witnesess. He then drew a transpose part of the business to the Navy comparison between the amount of the board, who had their hands quite empty; money expended by the Navy board, and the latter not having taken up but ten transthe amount of the money expended by the ports in full six months. This could be Treasury, stating each as referring to two effected without an increase of officers, distinct points-the contingencies and the which was the only shadow of an objection price of freight. In regard to the first, it he heard urged, and the foundation of alappeared that the contingencies of the ac- most every thing that had been offered by count from the Treasury for the transport the very plausible gentleman at the bar service exceeded the contingencies of the [Atkinson.] The rest of what that genaccount from the navy board for the same tleman said having gone only to an exteservice in the gross sum of 131,000l. In nuation of the conduct of himself and his regard to the article of freight, though the employers; not to justify it in any other excess paid by the Treasury per ton had manner than the ground of necessity, been no more than 1s. 6d. the difference which remained yet to be proved; for he was 45,000l. which, added to the excess in never could be persuaded, that either the the contingencies, made the whole differ- necessity of the Treasury contracts for a ence amount to 178,000l. Supposing, high price, or the necessity of the Treahowever, that he should make an allow-sury board being obliged to take that buance for some particular articles, over-siness upon themselves, had been even charged, wrong charged, or omitted in plausibly, much less clearly made out.

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