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profound peace. His grace, after informing their lordships, that a minute investigation of the various articles which formed the divisions and subdivisions under the great heads of public expence, would take up too much of their lordships' time, and, in fact, would swell his detail to a much larger size than it would be possible for their lordships, with their utmost attention, to comprehend at once, declared he should content himself with considering the standing expence of the nation at all times under the three great heads, namely, the army, the navy, and the ordnance, comprehending under each of these heads, the ordinaries and extraordinaries, the navy debt, &c. His grace then took out a manuscript sheet from some papers which he held in his hand, and stated from it to the House, the gross sums which the army, the navy, and the, ordnance cost upon an average in times of peace; what they cost in 1775, and what in 1776. With respect to 1777, he was obliged, in some sort, to rely on calculation, as the increase of the navy, debt was not yet reported to the lower House but that in every matter relative to the enquiry which he had troubled their lordships about, he had taken the greatest care to state the number and value of each article considerably under the proper quantum and rate, and on the present occasion he had pursued the same rule, and so unwilling was he to mislead their lordships, that if any of the lords in office thought he erred in any one particular, he would readily give up his own sum, and let that which they declared to be the just one, take its place in the account. From the state of the year 1777, when the seamen voted were increased to 45,000, and there was a vote of credit for a million, the duke reported that the excess was 6,977,000l. With regard to the present year, he should take that up as to the number and expence of the seamen, upon the ground of the votes, and regulate each other article by an average of the expence of the year 1777, which he conceived their lordships would think at least a moderate calculation. The seamen voted for the service of the present year were 60,000; the increase of expence on which account, as well as the increase occasioned by the new levies of 16,000 men for the army now raising, added to the presumed amount of each of the other articles, together with a vote of credit of a million, which he supposed would take place as usual in time of war, this stated

would increase the excess to nine millions. Adding together the amount of the excess of each of the four years, as stated above, the duke said the amount of the whole would be found to be 23,894,000l.

Besides which, his grace bid their lordships recollect, that if peace was so far forwarded, that the preliminaries were to be signed as that day, nevertheless there would remain a tail of expence which would amount to a considerable sum. In order to explain this, the duke referred to the accounts of the state expences for the four years following the close of the last war, from which it appeared, that the bringing the soldiers home from Germany, and other expences, swelled to the enormous sum of eleven millions. Were peace made with America, many and obvious would be the causes of expence. We had much farther to bring our army home than from Germany; transports, &c. would cost a great deal; and, add to this, the Hessian soldiers were not only to be paid for, as if in actual service, to the moment that they were delivered in Hesse proper, but a year's subsidy was to be paid that prince after his men had been so delivered. These, and a great variety of causes, would, the duke said, co-operate to create expence; and, as the tail of expence after the last war had amounted to eleven millions, he conceived he might fairly estimate the tail of expence which would fol low our war with America at nine millions, which, added to the 23,894,000l. already incurred, would make the expence of the war, were it ended this day, near 33 millions.

His grace added, that every additional year it was continued, would at least cost nine additional millions; and after reasoning some time on the incapacity of the state to bear the burthen, said, he hoped, as the resolutions of fact which he meant to move would essentially serve the project of making peace, about to come under their lordships' considerations, as they would open the eyes of the public, and convince the people at large, of the necessity of putting an immediate end to the war, that they would not be opposed, and meet the fate of the others, which he had moved on prior occasions. His grace then moved, "That it appears to this committee, that the expences of the Navy, Army, and Ordnance, as voted by parliament, and taken on an average of years of profound peace, have not exceeded the sun of 3,371,000",

would be a public declaration of our national weakness; for the truth was, that our weakness was already known to every body but ourselves, and that long before the present committee was formed: but if a doubt remained, the moving the resolutions in the House, where they must stand recorded on our Journals, and from thence make their way to the public, as so many acknowledged facts by those very persons who put a negative upon them at once, annihilated the pretence of concealing either our present dangerous and defenceless state from our enemies, or the nation at large. It would be much more consonant, therefore, to the noble earl's candour, and that haughtiness and explicit tone affected by ministers, to declare, that the reason which induced them to put a

The Earl of Suffolk said, in his opinion it was highly inexpedient to admit the resolution now urged, and he, for one, should certainly give it his negative. He could not at all agree to the doctrine, that resolutions being founded in fact, was any argument why they should be agreed to. There were many truths that might be easily ascertained to their lordships, which it would be extremely improper to declare, or give a parliamentary sanction to. He said, if he had foreseen the manner the committee was to be employed, he should have opposed it in the most direct manner. The noble duke had alluded to measures proposed in another House; and supposed, that the information brought forth in the committee would furnish ministers with a reason or apology for changing their plan. For his part, he was of opinion, that pro-negative on the matters of fact alluded to posing to resolve matters of fact, declarative of our weakness, would operate in a manner directly the reverse, and render the plan of peace, which his grace seemed so desirous to accomplish, much more hazardous and difficult. The noble duke, though he had stated facts, had proved thereby nothing consequential; the decrease of commerce, loss by captures, fall of stocks, increase of expence, and loss of lives, which the noble duke had brought forward to surcharge the picture of our national distress, were not unusual; they were uniformly the concomitants of a state of war. But if he had no other objection to the resolutions but the uncertainty of the calculations, that would be sufficient to determine his vote on the present occasion. It was impossible yet to determine, what the extra expences of the army for 1777, would amount to. The account of the navy debt of the same year was not yet before the House, though the noble earl near him (lord Sandwich) computed it on memory to be 1,300,000l. The difficulty was still greater in respect of the extra services of the present year, which could not be estimated till the next year. So that if he had no other reason to oppose the resolutions, their want of certainty and accuracy, as to the sums specified, fully justified him in his intended motion, which

was, because those facts contained the most full and unequivocal proofs of their misconduct; and informed the nation, that its present ruinous and alarming situa tion was brought upon it by a set of ministers who had wantonly plunged it into an unjust and unnatural war; who had spilt its best blood, and already wasted 24 millions of its treasure; and now, after persisting in these weak and wicked measures for more than three years; after refusing so much as to hear of any terms, but such as would have rendered the colonies mere slaves, were now preparing to sue for peace, and make the most humiliating concessions. He remarked, it was no great discovery the noble earl had made, when he said, a state of war was attended with expence; the assertion was granted before it was made; but when the objects of war were considered, even with a foreign enemy, which implies a neces sity, offensive and defensive; and was compared with the present, which was wantonly made on our own subjects, he was astonished how the noble lord could offer to amuse their lordships with a general assertion, every way inapplicable to the occasion and event. If we went to war even to obtain a just object, had we obtained it? No! We had spent every drop of blood, and every shilling, not barely to no purpose, but to the worst purposes. We had lost, in the first instance, one third of the empire; we had lost America.

His grace observed, that it behoved the country gentlemen to look to the melancholy situation they had brought themselves into, by the implicit confidence they

reposed in such ministers, and that in pursuit of a mere trifle. In order to obtain a penny, they had risked a pound; both were lost, and now they had the comfort to reflect, that they had contracted for a debt of 33 millions, which was saddling themselves and their posterity with a perpetual land tax (for by the lands this burden must be ultimately borne) of 4s. in the pound.

The noble earl threatened a dissolution of the enquiry, on account of the improper manner in which it was conducted. Why did not his lordship, or some other of the King's servants, take a part in it? The committee was as open to them, as to any other noble lord. It was meant to be a general, not a partial enquiry. The very title of it imported so much. Did not an enquiry into the state of the nation invite every one of their lordships to contribute and take a share in it? For his part, if the noble earl wished to dissolve the committee, he had no personal reason, at least, to wish for its continuance. He had gone through as many heads as came properly within his knowledge, habit of life, or application. He hoped some other lords would take up the enquiry where he ended; and that, particularly, those papers on the table, relative to the navy, would be taken into consideration. As there was a Bill, however, now before the other House, containing a plan of conciliation with America, which must of course come before their lordships in the course of the ensuing week, he recommended to postpone further proceedings in the committee till that Bill should be disposed of.

whom the exercise of the executive powers of the state were intrusted.

His lordship then proceeded to consider the state of the nation under these several heads. In point of population, experience had proved beyond question, that our numbers were visibly on the decrease. The great load of debt, and the consequent difficulty of procuring a comfortable livelihood, from the enhanced price of the necessaries of life, had produced a spirit of emigration; he perceived the decrease of numbers in his own neighbourhood: he did not think it fair to draw conclusions from local effects, operating in this or that neighbourhood, or district; but, he said, he was fully justified, by the tardy and unsuccessful manner the recruiting service had been carried on, to maintain his proposition as a general one. Recruits were not to be had on almost any terms. Ministers said, the war was a popular war; it might be so: if it was, it afforded an additional proof of the truth of his assertion, that our numbers were on the decrease, which was one of the most certain indications of the decline of national prosperity.

Riches was the next test of the true state of any country. He heard a great deal of the opulence of individuals. He was daily a witness of the increasing luxury and dissipation of the times: but were those marks of national prosperity? He believed not. If individuals were rich, was not the state poor? Who could say where the property was, in which every man almost counted himself a partner? Was not a great part of this property ideal? The Earl of Coventry said, the great Could those who were spending their forcharacteristic marks of national prosperity tunes in folly and debauchery, and either were population, riches, respect with fo- robbing the public or beggaring their own reign powers, the dignity of the crown, families, be said to be rich? Certainly and union among ourselves. When any not: and he even had many doubts, as to of these were confessedly wanting, it was individual riches. He allowed, there were a demonstrative proof, that, let the cause a great many persons, perhaps more than originate where it might, the nation did at any other period, who carried on consinot enjoy that state of prosperity which derable mercantile and other trading busiwas deemed desirable. When they were ness but was it because this or that man all wanting, it was no longer a doubt, but, could write his name on a slip of paper for besides radical causes, that the govern- 3,000l. that such men were to be deemed ment of the country was placed in impro-rich? By no means. It shewed no more, per hands; particularly if the transition than that our credit was immense; that was sudden, from a state of the greatest our very inability to pay furnished us with and most justly envied prosperity, to one the means of appearing opulent: but when the most humiliating and degrading. If it was considered, that more than a hunno probable cause of such a sudden tran-dred millions of the standing property of sition was apparent, then the evils, of the nation was ideal, and only due from whatever magnitude or extent of effect, ourselves to ourselves, that paper in other might be fairly laid at the door of those to transactions was the chief medium of trade