wealth must either be applied in trade to produce more, or it will be lent at intereft, fupplying their calls, in the one cafe, or in the other creating an increafing fund of money to the aggrandifement of the nation, and confequent fupply of their demands. Let me alfo tell them that if by any fatality trade meets a check, and the balance turns against us, away goes all the foreign money to pay it, the benefit of it is loft; the evil of it is, a perpetual drain of intereft remains. It is their bufinefs, it is the bufinefs of every landed man, to pursue the trade as the only fure and permanent means of obtaining wealth for raifing the value of land, and making money plentiful in the kingdom.

Every thing then concurring, and there not appearing the fhadow of a danger from reducing intereft, I think this a happy moment for adopt ing the measure.

Before I fit down, I cannot avoid taking this opportunity, the only one I have had, or perhaps thall have, of bearing my teftimony to the good fenfe and utility of the meature of my right hon. Friend, for lowering the intereft on our funded debt. He paid off a large annuity of near nine thousand a year, without the cost of one farthing to the nation. The measure has been often mentioned in the debate, and the man who has done it, deferves the thanks of the community.

Mr. Forbes rofe, and spoke a few words in explanation.

Mr. G. Ponfonby replied to the arguments of the Speaker.

Mr. Colville, Sir J. Blaquiere, and Mr. Kearney, fpoke against the bill--but as the fubject was exhaufted, no new or interefting matter was adduced.

The question was at length put, that the Speaker do leave the chair, when there appeared,

61. 94

hon. Gentleman would make it, to bring in a bill to quiet the minds of the citizens of Dublin, and of the county land-holders, freeholders, and farmers; and he declared, that if Mr. Gardiner perfevered in fo odious a meafure, which even his own conftituents condemned, he himself, though now well difpofed to him, would vote againft the right hon. Gentleman at the next general election, and hoped that every man, who regarded health, liberty, comfort, property, and good roads, would do the fame. He added, that the bill was upjuft, unneceffary, oppreffive, and ruinous to rich and poor.

Mr. Gardiner faid, if his hon. Friend would indulge him till Saturday next, he would pledge himself to bring in the bill, let its fate be what it may, on or before that day, and obferved, that he would return the compliment to the hon. Baronet, and join him in bringing in a bill to quiet the minds of his friends and conftituents in the county Wexford, whofe withes and intereft, he said, the hos. Baronet never loft fight of. Upon which it was agreed, that Mr. Gardiner thould bring in his bill on Saturday next, at furtheft.

Mr. Browne of the College, moved a claufe to the committee on the Police bill, in respect to the detaining in cuftody the whole night reipectable persons, who might be charged with offen ces of a trivial nature.Ordered.

The House refolved itself into a committee, to take into further confideration the petition from the inhabitants of the city of Dublin, paying taxes relative to the Police.

Sir Nicholas Lawless in the chair.

Mr. Duquery, in fupport of the allegations of the petition, proceeded to call a great number of witneffes, who underwent a very long examina tion on oath; and the evidence went principally to prove that feveral of the private Policemen behaved in many inftances, with infolence, cruelty, and oppreffion, and in forme cales of the inactivity and negligence of fome of the Divisional Juftices and Commiflioners. The witates were perfons of very refpe&table character, and four of them were clergymen of the established church, one of thefe latter gentlemen, a Mr. Ouver Miller, being asked if he did not think that the Police preferved the peace of the city fufficiently well, gave for anfwer, that they were the cause of more riot than the prevention of riot.

Sir L. O'Brien in this place, bore teftimony likewife to the infolence and cruelty of the Police, inftanced in their feizing by force a young lad of about 17 or 18 years of age, and dragging him into Mary's watch house, and cutting him in a defperate manner, and for no other crime than because he pepped into the watch houfe-he bowever interfered, and on his applying to the Alderman of the divifion he had the lad difcharged.

Mr. Burton informed the committee that there remained a very great number of witnesses fill to be examined, yet he should not take up any longer the time of the committee in producing any more witneffee, thinking he made the cafe of the petitioners fufficiently strong, and he fhould here clofe his evidence.

Mr. Burton then spoke to the cafe at large, and went very fully into the subjec, from which

it clearly appeared that the citizens of Dublin are taxed moft enormously to fupport this Police eftablishment, which is burthenfome and oppreffive in its nature, and totally infufficient to the purposes for which it was inftituted, and he trufted that the Legislature would substitute and carry into effect the 'principles of an act of the 17th and 18th of the present King, which was to establish wardmotes, by which means the city would have a constitutional watch, at less than half the expence of the prefent Police eftablifhment, and after making every point of his cafe exceedingly ftrong, he trufted that the hon. Committee would give the petitioners fuch relief as their wildom fhould think fit.

Mr. Hartley ftated the receipts and disbursements of the Commiffioners of Police as follow.

The Police Eftablishment for cafb received from the commencement to the 25th of Dec. 1787. DE BIT.

To Deputy Vice Treasurer

To the four Divifional Juftices

To certificates of houfes licensed,

pawn brokers, &c. &c.

To caft horses

16000

545 4

233 14

7

57 3

135 O 219 O II

To carriages, &c. for licenfes

By tradesmen's bills paid, building offices, ftables, fitting up watch houses, &c. &c. &c. By fecret fervice paid, gratuities

and rewards

By Stationer paid him for printing the Hue and Cry, stationnary, &c. &c.

By newspapers for advertising
By house of correction paid for

54 8

598 15 591 18 3h.

215 5 6h.

100 O

227 10

23867 3 9h.

Balance

477 16

2h.

24345 O O

He faid that in this account the falaries to the Commiffioners and other charges were omitted, which amount to near 3000l.

Mr. Hartley then moved the following refoJution.

"Resolved, that it appears to this committee that the establishment of the Police in its protection of the inhabitants of this city is infufficient, but its charge on the public has been enor mous,"

Mr. M. Beresford faid, that the evidence produced did not establish the allegations of the petition.

Mr. Stewart of Killymoon-Mr. Toler, Mr. Molyneaux, and 'Mr. Griffith spoke on the fub ject. The latter gentleman oblerved, that from the inftances of violence which the evidences had established in the committee, he was certain that the right hon. Secretary (Mr. Fitzherbert) must have been induced to think that these transactions had happened at Conftantinople, where the peuple are feized without warrant or law, but at the will of a defpot, by the ruffianly hands of the Janizaries.

Mr. Hartley wifhed for three days to prepare an unexceptionable plan for the protection of the city.

Mr. Beresford and Mr. Mafon fupported the prefent Police establishment.

Mr. Forbes faid, the expences of Police eft blishment appeared to amount for one year and a quarter to upwards of 23,000l. exclufive of the charge of falaries to the Commiffioners and Divifional Juftices for the like time, which was not inferted in that account, but which swelled it to a fum exceeding 25,000 l. befides law expences. He asked if there was any member in that committee, who would deny that' part of the motion, "that the charge on the Public was enormous ?"- -Having waited some time, and no answer being made, He said it was now. clear that no perion could be hardy enough to rile in its detence. In answer to the objection of the right hon Member [Mr. Beresford] that the committee, by voting the refolution propofed, would be fubject to the imputation of proceeding on II PARTE evidence, to condemn the officers of Police, who had never been heard in their defence, nor has notice of the charges that were to be made against them, Mr. Forbes faid, he could not confider that objection as well founded; there had been an order made that the petitioners against the Police a&t fhould be heard by their counsel, and have liberty to fubftantiate the allegation of their petition, by evidence of the nature and tendency of all thofe allegations; the officers of the Police, in common with all the other citizens of Dublin, were perfectly in formed; therefore, no objection could be fupported on the ground of want of notice; but he faid that the officers of the Police had not offered to produce any evidence in their exculpa tion; and Mr. Forbes faid he could anfwer for the hon. Member (Mr. Hartley) who made the mction, that he would content to withdraw it, i that the committee should be adjourned, in order to afford the magiftrates and officers of the Police an opportunity of examining witneffes to rebui the evidence which they may confider as affecting their character and conduct. If this offer was not accepted, he hoped that the argument of proceeding EX PARTE would not again be relorted to, In antwer to another objection of Mr. Beresford's, that the evidence produced at the bar did not warrant that part of the mou"that the Police ettablishment, as a piotection of the inhabitants, has been infufficient." As the evidence only proved, that the inhabitants had been reated by the officers of Police. He laid, the argument was the moß fin

on,

gular he had ever heard-the Police establish was formed for the protection of the inhabes. -it had been proved, that instead of prote@ing them, the Police officers had violated their i ty, perfons, and properties-and could any fon feriously deny, that this establishment a protection of the inhabitants has been inf cient ?

Mr. Burgh, Accountant General, maved, th.. the chairman do leave the chair

The Attorney General feconded the moti Mr. Grattan. I cannot paf over the fo lice of Dublin, without animadverfion. ther the old Watch, or the modern Pot: most infufficient to every purpose of prote the lives and properties of the citizen why body molt departed from the object of it im tution, and most eminently failed in the exca tion of justice, I cannot prefume to determine it is that dull and uleless conteft and emulader. of worthleffness and infufficiency, which I t confign to men more experienced in the oppr on of the city than myself. I perceive from .. evidence before you, that robberies are comu as ever that midnight outrage, &c. &c. on the fame footing, as under the dominion the old watch. I perceive that the diforder your city, are in as perfect and unintertur vigour, as at any former period.

I recollect, that upon the first appointm of the Police in 86, that there was withi certain diftrict a fufpence impoled on catr and robbery-but both foon returned. The no fecurity, no regulation under the pref Police, which you did not experience befc when the city was left entirely unprotected; if I were to judge from the evidence before y I fhould fay, that neglect was a principle at office.

.

I find from that evidence, that fome of prefent divifional Magiftrates, do business o at certain times, that is-before dinner: Th., after that hour, the citizen, who is so imp tunate and untealonable as to call on a Divifio Justice about the bufinefs of his office, is fare be denied, or perhaps infulted. This wa t cafe of Mr. Hone, who was robbed, with connivance, as he thought, of the Police, a who was rath enough to call upon an Alcermaa at an unleafonable hour; the moment of resaxetion, when magiftracy is difpofed to delight it a with fomething more amusing than the busine!. juftice; in one of these moments, Mr. Hoi who was robbed, called on one of the Divifion Juftices; the fervant defires the importunate tizen to go to the Devil, the citizen nor choosing to follow his advice, and expoftulating a t on the fubject about which he came, faw, the door opened, the Divifinal Juftice who hur been denied; but the chizen, who had bee robbed, miltook his time for calling on a Div fional Juftice, he called in the evening, wh virtue relaxes ittelt, and does not relish interroj tion tom complaint of robbery, and tobjects & that fature ;- -this is one of the many initas ces which have appeared before this commitee, of the neglect and tupinenets of the Divifiera Juflices, who are paid by the public for theg Extacrdinary activity. From the many inflance which appear in evidence, from what we know ourtelves,