cumstance, and to any extent, he could not see the grounds on which the committee could be refused A right reverend prelate (Ossory) had founded an objection to the measure on the misconduct and intemperance of some members of the catholic body. Of that misconduct and intemperance he was not disposed to be the apolo gist; but its very existence, in place of being an obstacle, was with him a strong recommendation for acceding to the claims of the petitioners. Might it not be presumed that these persons, under the guise of con ciliation, were the greatest enemies to the cause which they affected to support. If, then, the great question was carried, must not their adventitious and unnatural conse. quence disappear. Take away the pretext, and the opportunity of which these demagogues availed themselves would be at ouce removed. Another objection arising from the same quarter, was founded on an alleged contrariety of opinion in the catholic body. If such did exist, parliament had no business with it. It was bound to legislate without any such reference or such conditions as appeared to its wisdom important and necessary. He was disposed to hold all those securities equally cheap with the noble secretary, The simple enactment of extending equal civil rights to the catholic as to the protestant, was, in his judgment, the easiest and most concilia tory course. tablishment went together. It would at state. But unless the noble lord (Liver last become a question, whether the faith pool) and the house were determined to which had been pledged to the maintain-deny catholic concession under every cirteance of a protestant establishment should be preserved or broken. Was it wise, then, with such a prospect before them, to weaken the establishment by stripping it of part of that influence and power which might be essential to its defence? The practical effects of exclusion were only felt occasionally, and by few. Neither ought it to be forgotten, that the Roman cathoJics themselves were the greatest exclusionists in the world. To prove this, it would not be necessary to appeal to the councils of Trent and Lateran, but to modern recent decrees, in which it was expressly declared, that toleration was not consistent with the principles of their church. Could it then be doubted, that if by any succession of events or combination of circumstances they should acquire the ascendency, either civil or religious, they would exclude protestants? This was the result of the best founded consideration he had been able to give the subject; he admitted that it was a case of difficulty: much of the policy that had been pursued in that country he regretted; but they were under the necessity of providing for circumstances as they actually existed. They must take things as they found them. At such a period as the present, he conceived our best security would be found in supporting and keeping together the church and state as established at the revolution. All the indulgence and all the liberality It was, with sincere plea that was consistent with this fundamental sure, that he heard the noble eari (Harrow. principle, he should feel happy to support; by) so justly demand specifically the danbut he could not help regarding the designgers against which, in the event of yielding of bringing all religions to a level, as tending to unhinge the minds of all classes of the people; and, by unsettling opinions, to render society liable to receive every ac cidental prejudice or impression; thus impairing the ancient foundations of a constitution under which we had long enjoyed happiness and security. to the wishes of the catholic body, parlia ment had to provide. To that question no answer had been given.—And surely it was a monstrous proposition to suppose, that the stronger interest the catholic had in the privileges of the constitution, the more disposed he would be to endeavour to effect its subversion. He ever considered the Earl DARNLEY could not help consider-repeal of these penal laws as the sine qua ing it irreconcilable in the noble lord (Liverpool), after the expression of his willingness to correct anomalies that could not be denied in the penal laws respecting catholics, and to allow a modified concession to that class of subjects, that he notwithstanding determined to oppose the motion of his noble friend (lord Donoughmore) for going into a committee. Did he not feel that it was in a committee that what he was disposed to do could be best accomplished? He had, indeed, expected to have heard from the noble secretary some specific argument against the motion, but, to his disappointment, he had heard nothing but the indulgence of declamation on the dangers to the connexion of church and non in the wise government of Ireland.Until that result was obtained, Ireland could never enjoy the advantages that na ture conferred on her, neither could Eng. land avail herself of that efficient co-operation that otherwise she could obtain. It would come at length in its proper course before the legislature, recommended by the wishes of the executive government. When the catholics, therefore, reflected on the support they now experienced from some of the leading members of the cabi net, and from such a great proportion of theleading public characters on both sides of the house, though perhaps disappointed at present, they had no occasion to despond. Lord GRENVILLE began by saying, that as the house must feel that his mind had long been decided on the great question before them-that as on many preceding occasions he had endeavoured, with his utmost energy, to press his eager wishes to have this mighty boon conferred on England and on Ireland, it would not be from any change in his views of that necessity, if, in that late hour of the discussion, when the minds of their lordships were in possession of every argument, when the sense of the public was so fully enlightened on the subject, he should decline again to proteed into that wide and comprehensive view of the question which on former occasions he felt to be his duty. Nothing, in deed, that he could add-weak and less impressive as he must appear after the speech of the noble earl (Harrowby), could be necessary to strengthen those unassailable inferences, which proved that with the sagacity of a sound politician he had cast his eye over every part of this most important subject The noble prelate (Norwich) who spoke third in the debate into the minds of some where those doubts have entered. But on this question of penal relaxation, it has been nevertheless true; and the practice consequently has been in every discussion of their repeal, if by any nice and subtle argument a prospective danger could be made to appear, to consider such a presumption sufficient to put an end to further proceeding. As if in all questions of legislation directed to the progress of human affairs, difficulties and dangers were not of necessity to be balanced-as if in the provisions of human government, nothing was to be adopted or set in action, unless he that proposed it could first prove to demonstration that nothing save fate or providence could extract evil from it. The evils, with the existence of which every man, however disposed to apply the remedy, was impressed. They have sprung, first, from the relent less intolerance of the penal code. They have been aggravated by your pertinacity in refusing that, which could not injure you, and which those that are aggrieved believe you refuse, lest they should be excepted-Amidst the other anomalies of these laws there existed one that has not been adverted to as fully as the fallacy de a man with whom it was his pride to have lived from their childhood in the most intimate friendship, and of whose friendship there was no man but should be proud-mands. It was assumed that the enjoy had justly described it as a question-not ment of civil rights was denied on the of an abstract and polemical character grounds that power should not be given to nor a subtle and metaphysical speculation, those who might be supposed to exercise still less a question of a religious and theo- that power to the destruction of the state. logical nature-but a question arising out There never was any foundation for such of the varying and mixed mass of human an apprehension-there never could be one. circumstances, and on which statesmen But even if it could be justified, how can and legislators in such capacities had to it bear upon the present condition of the decide. It was, indeed, from the legisla- catholic. Were not all these dangersture the evils that at present claimed the where they could be most operative, alconsideration of their lordship's sprung. ready risqued? Were not the catholics A legislature that had on so many other in possesssion of all those trusts the most great topics of public policy so wisely pro-likely to be dangerous, and therefore the vided, but whose system of intolerant and heartless restriction, for the continuance of a century, had left upon record enactments that would have degraded the deliberations of the most barbarous men in the most barbarous nations. In endeavouring, therefore, to discuss the great interests involved in such a question, he would not descend into trifling disquisitions on abstract points--they were too narrow-too little for legislative decision, compared with the great and gigantic considerations that were at issue. Such metaphysical and nice distinctions might suit the preciuse in the closet, but could bear little on the motives of those who were called to legislate on the actual condition of a country. It was for them to consider all that experience had established, and wisdom could anticipate, in the removal of those evils that in their operations went to weaken the public security, and diminish the nation's prosperity. He could not therefore imagine how doubts could have entered ORTHOD. JOUR. VOL. V. most to be apprehended in their perversion? Has not the colonel of a regiment, from a number of circumstances, greater means of improperly influencing the minds of his men than a general? Has not the governor of a fort or castle, a situation open to the catholic, fuller opportunity to enter into the designs of the enemy? Might not the same be said of the navy? It was truly stated by his noble friend (Harrowby) that you had granted the bar-a profession where an influence most dangerous to the 'government might be created, and most particularly in a country whence the legislature was removed. With respect to parliament, he must ever consider the danger of admitting a few catholic noblemen and gentlemen as altogether visionary. It was true indeed, as the noble secretary (Liverpool) stated, such an incorporation would not allow it to be longer designated a protestant parliament. But to apprehend danger from such a source-giving to the apprehension the fullest extent to which 2 K the wildest imagination could carry it, he must think that the noble earl alarmed himself with fears manifestly void of any foundation.-There was, however, one danger on which that noble lord laid considerable stress-it was, that if you remove all the present grounds of grievance, will there not yet remain the grievance of the establishment? If there be danger to our establishment arising out of the circumstances of the case, and whatever be its amount, would it not be more consistent, as well as the more judicious course, to soothe those other feelings of discontent, and not allow additional grievances to irritate and aggravate that which cannot be removed? Would not the catholics feel the value of that obligation, which at the same time that the establishment was secured for ever, guaranteed to themselves the enjoyment of every civil privilege. He would go farther, and by incorporating the catholic gentleman in the protection of church and state, feel that he adopted the very best means to counteract the danger which the noble secretary dreaded. But he has asked, supposing all that was sought conceded, can it rest there? To that he could not give any direct reply. It must depend on the course of things; and must be left to the superintending wisdom and power of the legislature. But this he would say, that if there was any one measure calculated above all others, to impart satisfaction and harmony to Ireland-if there was one still more likely to guard against the mischiefs which a long train of untoward events and of a mistaken policy had generated, it was that measure which had been represented as tending to shake the security of church and state. That was his solemn and decided opinion-an opinion which every hour of his life had confirmed, which every circumstance of the present time, and he believed every event of the future, will strengthen and fortify. One circumstance there was, that no preceding discussion on this question could be introduced, but on which he was anxious now to communicate bis reflections to their lordships. Forty years have now elapsed since first this country began to relax from that odious system of commercial, religious, and political restriction which had disgraced the legislation of nearly a century before. It had not reached farther back, and there never was a grosser misrepresentation than to identify that inlolerant and persecuting system with the glorious revolution. There were few brighter names in the page of history, than our illustrious deliverer William the third: -there never existed a man to whom mankind were under more sincere obligations : but if there was one greater and more superminent quality in that great and supereminent character, it was that he was the | first statesman that acted on the prirciples of universal toleration — and to that great cause were directed and devoted the energies of his whole life.It was hard, indeed, therefore, that when they had to consider one of the most bigotted, one of the most persecuting, and one of the most intolerant systems that ever disgraced any country; an attempt should be made to date its origin from his reign, and to fix it as a blot upon his great and illustrious character. The fact was that the opponents of the catholic claims made an obstinate resistance to every attempt at bringing back the policy of the country to what it was when the revolution took place. He was about to observe that it was now forty years since the legislature had begun to remove those disabilities under which the catholics of Ireland laboured. Since that period much had been done; nor could he subscribe to the censure which had been bestowed upon the last of those concessions in 1792. The principle of that measure was a sincere desire to do all that the state and condition of the country at that period, all that the prejudices of the inhabitants, all that the opinions and disposition of the Irish parliament, enabled them to do, towards the completion of the great work. It would be a high gratification to him at the close of his political life, to look back upon the large share which he had in making that greatest stride that was ever made at one effort, towards accomplishing what he knew, indeed, that measure alone could not accomplish, but which he felt was eminently calculated to prepare the way for a final and complete toleration. There was one circumstance in the history of the catholic question, which deserved to be considered. From the first concession in 1777, down to 1782, and from thence down to 1792, they had all been made under circumstances of greater or less political distress and difficulty. And though no one would venture to say it was an unwise or unfit policy, when we were entangled in a civil war with America, or when we were menaced with a fo reign war with France, to endeavour by conciliation and union to strengthen our resources at home, yet, it might be suspect ed (most unjustly he readily admitted,) that those concessions were not the result of legislative wisdom-not the offspring of justice and liberality-not the Conse quences of an enlarged and comprehensive policy which embraced the general welfare of the whole empire-but a benefit extorted from us under the influence of fear and apprehension. The same objec tions, it could not be denied, were appli cable, at all the various periods when the question of catholic emancipation had been agitated. But now, they had at last arrived at a condition, when they lost their force; they had now reached that state of security and peace, when it could not even be insinuated, that whatever boon might be granted, was extorted from our fears. We had now the enviable opportunity of convincing the Irish catholics, that as they had yielded their resources with an unsparing hand, and had shed their blood for us, during a time of great peril and exertion, so it was now our wish to promote their union and prosperity. We might now convince them, that our disposition to alleviate their grievances did not rise merely with our difficulties, and sink with the return of our security. And he could not but regard it as a blessed occasion, which the current of human events had placed within our reach, when we were enabled to confer á lasting benefit upon those who could not misinterpret our motives; upon those who must know and feel, that what we did, was done, 1st, because it was our duty; 2dly, because it was our interest; and, 3dly, because the sentiment of every heart declared that the present was the time for discarding every petty jealousy, and obliterating the remembrance of all past injuries. We might now prove to her, that the interests of both countries were the same; that they were insepara bly blended together; and that, as they were united by nature, so they ought to be united in the sacred and indissoluble bonds of law, and amity, and affection. Earl BATHURST asked for what purpose they were to go into a committee, without having certain settled principles on which they were to proceed? To go into a committee without some specific plan would only be to excite expectations which could not be fulfilled. The veto and domestic nomination had been mentioned as specific plans at different times: but the veto which had been proposed by the ad. vocates of the claims, had been withdrawn by the same persons. It was understood to be an article of the union, that there should be no bar to the discussion of the sent existed between the catholics of Ireland and foreign powers; but this argument was of no great weight, unless it was also shown that the catholics of Ireland would be completely satisfied with what was proposed to be granted to them. Would they not want more? As to the incapacities under which they at present laboured, he thought more than necessary emphasis was laid upon them. Surely there was something visionary in the idea that a man was injured, because he was prevented by law from obtaining certain situations which it was almost impossible he should ever obtain; yet such was the reasoning of one class of the advocates of the catholic claims. The peasant quietly tilling his potatoe ground, and who had no thought beyond it, was represented as a debased and injured man, because he could not become a colonel or general on the staff. To another class of advocates, who conceived that great additional concessions might still with safety be made to the catholics, he was ready to give his acquiescence-that is, if a fair line could be drawn between what should be granted and what should not, and if he could believe that the grants so limited would be satisfactory, he would be one of the first to give his vote in support of them. But then let the advocates of such concessions produce their bill at once, and let the specific objects be fairly described: for why should the house go in the first instance into a committee? His noble friend (lord Harrowby) had asked whether we can stand where we do? To this he (lord Bathurst) would answer, yes; I think I can stand, because I have stood; and I do not choose to go from the spot where I do and can stand, till you prove to me that the spot to which you recommend me to move is quite as good as that which you ask me to leave: but he thought this argument proved too much; for if the concessions were so dovetailed that they must go together, and that we must either repeal the past or go on to more, then he would ask when and where they were to stop? If the catholics of Ireland were put on the same footing as the protestant dissenters, they would go farther, and ask also for a church establishment? These were the grounds on which he felt it ne❤ cessary to resist the present application; for these reasons he would not by his vote catholic claims: well, we had discussed and enquired, and we found that it was not expedient to grant those claims; and surely it would not be said, that because the act of union did not bar discussion, it was to be considered as having taken away all bar to concession. Suppose there had been no union, were there lordships prepared to say, that the Roman catholic religion would have been established in Ire-give a notice to quit till he was sure of land? No, it would not; because it was contrary to the very principles of the constitution, that a religious establishment should be set up in opposition to the protestant establishment: this would be to take away the very key-stone of the arch of our system. The great argument on the other side was, that concession would do away that boud of union which at pre having another house over his head.-He was not prepared for that fundamental change in the establishment of the country which the proposed measure would effect, -He was disposed to look with gratitude to the period of the reformation: he did not mean to that bloody and licentious reign which started that blessing, but to the mild and solid virtues of the succeed ing monarch, who placed the church upon a rock, from which he hoped in God it would never be displaced. Earl GREY said he had been so completely anticipated in every thing which be could wish to express upon the present subject by his noble friends who had preceded him, that he felt it was a superfluous task to address their lordships, and in attempting which he had much apology to offer them. Yet, though his opinions were perfectly well known, he felt that he could not reconcile it to his sense of duty to give a silent vote. The omission of some things in the course of that evening's debate had given him considerable satisfaction. He bad not heard repeated, as on former occasions, the charges which were so pertinaciously urged against the catholics, that the doctrines of their religion exempted them from the obligation of keeping faith with heretics. That, together with other equally monstrous doctrines, it appeared was no longer imputed to them by their opponents. But though he had derived no common satisfaction from observing the abandonment of those prejudices, he had heard others advanced in their stead, which gave him equal pain, and excited equal astonishment. The noble earl who presided over his majesty's government, and the right reverend prelate behind him, had ventured to assert that the protestant religion was of that character, that it could not admit of a complete toleration with respect to the catholics in this country. They contended that there was no danger to be apprehended from a catholic government admitting protestants into its councils, but that it was impossible for a protestant government to extend the same liberality towards catholics. He confessed he heard that assertion thus broadly and unequivocally delivered, with considerable pain; because he always thought, if the protestant church had one distinguishing characteristic which more than another discriminated it from that church whose errors and prejudices they deplored, it was, that its doctrines and principles shrunk from no examination, however rigid and severe. It was related of the duke of Guise, that when his assassin was brought before him, he addressed him in the following words (which a poet of our own country had put into the mouth of Tamerlane): "Mark now the difference 'twixt your faith and mine "Yours prompts to deeds of violence and blood, | the reformed church of England was as intolerant and persecuting in spirit as the church of Rome could be. Reverting to the general question, he had no hesitation in saying, that in his judgment no one could conscientiously vote against it, who was not prepared to declare, that in the present state of the penal laws, as affecting the catholics of Ireland, there was nothing which required alteration. But who would say that the remaining exclusions under which they laboured, were not severe and heavy grievances? Who would say, that the penal statutes against them, which still disgraced our statute-book, ought not to be repealed? He, for one, could not admit that their exclusion from power, or rathes from the capacity of power, was complete toleration. He contended, that all such exclusions, if not justified by some great state necessity, if not called for to obviate some positive danger, was unjust, and irreconcilable with any principles of equity. What was the answer to that argument? That the constitution of this country was essentially protestant, and could not be altered without subverting its whole fabric. He denied that proposition; and perfectly agreed with his noble friend near him, that the revolution was equally founded upon liberality in all that concerned religion, and upon liberty in all that related to political conduct. He concurred also in the just and discriminating panegyric which his noble friend had pronounced on William III. Even in the speech of the noble earl opposite (lord Liverpool), he had not heard a single word in answer to the repeated calls which were made upon every discussion of the present subject, to shew any distinct and positive dangers that were likely to arise from conceding the catholic claims. He begged the noble earl's pardon; there was one danger which he mentioned, and to which he earnestly called the attention of their lordships. The danger which so vehemently excited the apprehensions of the noble earl, was, that if the catholics were admitted into a full participation of all the privileges of the British constitution, the parliament of this country could no lon ger be called a protestant parliament.— The noble earl foresaw the greatest perils from the loss of that distinctive appella. tion; but it was the first time he had ever heard the name of a thing prized beyond the substance. Of all the imaginary dangers that the wit of man could devise, he thought that the most futile. His lordship observed upon what he considered the visionary nature of the alleged dangers that would attend the conceding the claims of the catholics, and remarked that on the other hand, having given them the means of acquiring wealth, and a certain degree of power, it was out of the nature of things to imagine that they would be contented as |
