thought the boldest disciple of that great master of paradox; and nobody, indeed, could justly deny him the honour to which he aspired. His arguments had the merit of being new and ingenious, but yet they did not seem likely to make converts. Paradoxical they might be, but they did not equal or come near the extravagance of an assertion which he was sorry to hear fall from his hon. friend (Mr. Rice)" that the debts of the crown were the debts of the public, and however incurred, must be paid by the public." If this doctrine were true, what had the House more to do, than to come at once to the vote? No one that walked the streets could doubt the existence of such a debt, and whether it was produced by necessity or by the most scanlous profusion, was an object above their consideration. The ministers of the crown had incurred the debt; the representatives of the people were under an obligation to pay it out of the purse of their constituents. He could not, however, persuade himself that, upon recollection, his hon. friend would continue to support that position and indeed he thought he perceived by his countenance that he wished to retract it. He then proceeded to consider the motion itself as made by lord John Cavendish, which he said, would be found to be the constant practice of the House on messages of this kind, except in the precedent of 1769, when the message was at once referred to the committee of supply. He thought there could be no suspicion of a want of respect for the crown, in following the former precedents, which had an appearance more becoming parliament, as they implied a desire to examine into the causes of the debt. The mode proposed at present was to pay the debt, and in crease the revenue without any such investigation. He dreaded the principle upon which we were going to increase the Ciyil List more than the vote itself. For it was assumed, that the revenues applicable to the late king's Civil List being improved, the King had a right to what was called an indemnification for what his Majesty had casually lost, by accepting of the annuity of 800,000l. Now, he did not conceive that it could be supposed that those duties having been given upon a supposition that they would amount to 800,000l. a year, or thereabouts, the crown had a right to the further amount of them, let them increase ever so much. That this argument was still more extraordinary when we considered, that one of them, if not more, had been increased by acts of parliament subsequent to the Civil List Act. The revenue he alluded to was that of the Post-office, which was improved by restraining the privilege of franking. According to that principle, the people were to pay the crown for the additional burthens that had been laid upon themselves. He was not sure that there had not been more alterations in other revenues, which were formerly appropriated to the King's Civil List: if there were, the same argument would apply to them. Another branch which had increased of late years was the seizure of uncustomed goods. He was at a loss to know how to account for that increase. Smuggling, to be sure, is of late years much increased, to a very dangerous height: but as the public lose a great deal more by the customs being defrauded by the smuggler, than they get by the seizures, he could not think it very just that they should pay for that loss. This matter would have been easier to ascertain, if the account of the amount of the duties formerly applicable to the Civil List, had not been made up in a very extraordinary manner: and what is more extraordinary, is, that pains must have been taken to make it unintelligible. In 1726 those accounts were produced to shew the amount, and likewise the deficiencies of those duties; every branch of revenue was thus stated separate, as it was received from the office of customs, excise, post office, exchequer, &c. but in the present instance all those branches were lumped together, and set down without distinction in one column. The sums given by different acts of parliament, and which must always be the same in every year, were indeed separated into four columns; by this means all investigation of the separate articles of the duties was carefully prevented: and if it was not for that purpose, that the account was made up in this whimsical manner, it was not casy to assign the true reason. He then observed upon the applications to parliament, on account of the Civil List, in the reigns of queen Anne, George the 1st, and George the 2nd. As to queen Anne, when it was considered that she had contributed 100,000l. a year out of her Civil List, to the expence of the war, as well as that the parliament had diverted some of the Civil List revenues to public services, it was unnecessary to say how just a clain that princess had to the assist [134 ance of the public. In George the 1st's diminished, indeed, his own patronage by time, it is sufficient to say, that after it, which might be held as an objection to various endeavours of his Majesty to the practice, but he made a considerable extricate himself from the debts of the saving, by striking off useless places; the Civil List, that purpose was accom- persons who lost them were placed upon plished without any additional burthens the king's bounty list, and succeeded to being laid upon the public. The grants other employments upon vacancies. But to the London Assurance and Royal while lord Talbot was striking off places of Exchange companies, raised 300,000l. 2 or 300l. a year at one end of the palace, The Civil List bore the weight of the rest at another, new places and pensions of of its own debt. He was surprised to 500l. 1,000l. or perhaps 2,000l. a year were have heard it asserted, that the debts of the added to the civil establishment. From Civil List had been paid by parliament in this source rose originally the debt of the the reign of George the 2nd. His late ma- Civil List, joined to the necessary exjesty had, indeed, two sums granted him pences of coronation jewels, funerals, and by parliament, upon the account of the marriages of the royal family. During Civil List; 115,000l. in 1729, and 456,733. the period of the first eight years of the in 1747. The first sum was granted upon reign, ministries were of so short a duaccount of the arrears of the Civil List re- ration, that it was impossible for any one venues, and was to be replaced at his de- minister to make the necessary reducmise out of the out-standing arrears of tions after the debt was once incurred. those revenues, if those arrears, together The noble lord in the blue ribbon was with the 115,000l. should be more than the first who had it in his power; he sufficient to make up the produce of the has been seven years at the head of the said revenues, 800,000l. a year for his Treasury. Great additions have been majesty's reign. That sum was accord- made to the royal income, by the deaths ingly replaced to the public, at his majes- of the princess of Wales, dukes of York ty's death, out of those arrears. The se and Cumberland, and other branches of cond sum of 456,733. was the deficiency the royal family. His Majesty, at the of the Civil List duties for the 7 years pre- beginning of his reign, paid 157,000l. a ceding 1747. To this the king had a year to the different branches of his famistrict legal right, by the Civil List Act ly: his royal predecessor paid, for the passed the first year of his reign. In nei- greatest part of his reign, from 130,000l. ther of these cases was the Civil List debt to 140,000l. a year, and besides kept table laid before the House. The king asked at St. James's for many of them and their for no benevolence from his parliament, attendants. His late majesty, during the but strict justice. In fact, the Civil List life of queen Caroline, lived in splendour was in 1747 in debt very near 200,000l.in the summer at Hampton-court or more than the sum voted by parliament; Windsor, and since her majesty's death, but for that his majesty thought he had at Kensington. no claim upon his people. It is observable, that from that period to the resignation or dismission of the duke of Newcastle, the payments of the Civil List were never six weeks in arrear.. After that noble duke's dismission, there was great talk of economy, but practice did not keep pace with professions; if we except the lord steward of the houshold, upon whom much unjust censure has been passed; he professed economy, and practised it. The noble lord had declared, that none of the expences were incurred for the sake of influence. Another gentleman had mentioned the period of sir Robert Walpole's administration, as a time when that evil existed in a much greater degree than at present. Mr. T. differed widely from the latter; he believed, that when that gentleman considered the vast increase of all our establishments, the increase of In conseour possessions in every part of the world; quence of his reductions, the tables which the numerous and advantageous contracts remained were better served than they under government; the patronage which were before: many tables were abolished; ministers have gained, through the mebut those for whom they were designed dium of the East India Company; to had board wages, by which they rather which may be added, the increase of debt, gained than lost, and a considerable saving and of officers in the collection of the rewas made for the king. Lord Talbot like-venue, he would be inclined to retract his wise did another thing, which he recom- opinion: perhaps he would join with him mended to the imitation of others; he in thinking, that the influence of the crown was nearly trebled since the time of sir R. Walpole. He observed, upon a comparison of the suspicious articles of Pensions, Annuities, and Secret Service, in the last eight years of the late king, and the eight years in which the present debt has been incurred, a considerable exceeding in the latter period of 257,7031. It is observable, that the last eight years of the late king included the greatest part of the late glorious war, during which there certainly must have been occasion for no small sum of secret service money for purposes truly national. If the noble lord would set himself seriously to work at a reduction of expences, he was confident, it might be effected without meddling with any thing, in which his Majesty's private comfort, the dignity of the crown, or the service of the public were concerned. The foundation of his confidence was this; that Mr. Grenville, in office, as well as out of office, declared the 800,000l. to be sufficient. Being called upon to know if he intended to increase the Civil List, that minister treated the report as a calumny. He said in the strongest terms, that while he continued minister, he never would ask for any augmentation, or for any sum on account of the Civil List: perhaps that declaration might be among the reasons of his dismission. The noble lord chuses to avoid that consequence, and says, "God forbid that I should lose my office." When he is questioned upon the subject of the increase of expence of the Civil List, he answers undoubtedly in a much more becoming manner than Mr. Grenville did, "If you will contrive, that nobody shall be desirous of places and pensions, I will cease to Jay burthens upon the public, to provide for suitors for places and pensions." This answer never occurred to Mr. Grenville; perhaps it was not so well suited to those times, as to the present, any more than to the grave character of that minister. Upon the whole, Mr. T. was of opinion, that resolving the House into a committee on the Message, was a more parliamentary measure, than referring it to the committee of supply: that in the latter, the House could only consider of the sum to be voted; in the former, the whole question would be open to discussion. A minute discussion was necessary in times like these. The public burthens were increasing rapidly; the power of the crown gaining ground upon the people in the same proportion. Economy, real œconony, by retrenchment of expences, was the only method by which those evils could be restrained. The noble lord would, in a few weeks at farthest, call upon every gentleman in England, to contract his expences; let him set us the example. In a committee upon the Message, the House might see where savings might be made. If the noble lord was serious in his intentions of lessening the expences of the crown, the authority of parliament would strengthen his hands, and furnish him with a weighty answer to unreasonable solicitors. Mr. Grenville, whose memory the noble lord sometimes affected to treat with veneration, was not more conspicu-ously serviceable to the public in any part of his character, than in the steadiness and perseverance with which he gave his negative to the importunate demands of rapacious and insatiable courtiers. If the noble lord was not sincere in his professions of œconomy, the committee could, and ought to controul him. With the assistance of parliament, an honest minister might do great good. Without parliament thought this was an object of enquiry, he foresaw little good would be done. The principle upon which this sum, and the increase of the establishment were demanded, was a progressive one: he saw plainly, that in making this demand, a foundation was laid for making further applications. Parliament ought to be wil- more likely for them to regain the confi- Mr. Fox, after describing what he termed the wanton profusion of ministers for a series of years back, in the several great departments of the state, and the shameless prodigality which prevailed in the disposition of the revenues of the Civil List, predicted a day of reckoning, when probably ministers would not be permitted to pass such accounts, as those lying on the table. He told the House, that he should ready mentioned; and to which, there had not go over the items that had been al not as yet, even so much as the colour of an answer been given. There was one article however, which he could not pass over without mentioning; and presumed, it struck every gentleman present as well as himself with astonishment. It was the sum of 513,000l. stated under the head of the Board of Works, in the course of the last eight years, without telling to whom the money had been paid, on what account it had been paid, or on what palace, house, park, garden, or place, the money had been expended. He observed the conduct of the minister, in 1769, though the noble lord now disclaimed the appellation, was much less reprehensible than now. He then acted openly, and came boldly to parliament to demand a round sum, without account." I want the money; I cannot wait; grant it now, and you shall have the account next year." On this occasion, parliament had the option to grant or refuse; to take his word, or disbelieve it. New men, new measures; the noble lord tells you this day, very gravely, that he was not then first minister; but that since, he has become one entirely on his own bottom; that accounts ought to precede the grant; but when the accounts come to be examined, what do they turn out? No accounts at all; but a detail of arbitrary sums, for ought we know, set down according to the fanciful ideas of several persons who wrote them; and all consolidated into one round sum, which we are called upon to grant out of the purses of our constituents, without being satisfied that a single item is fairly or perfectly stated; unless we trust to the integrity of ministers, and the fidelity of their subordinate instruments. Well, taking it for granted, that the sums are truly stated, why trouble the House with such an account at all, unless to add mockery to contempt, and blend insult with derision. When we had no account, we trusted to ministers. Now that we have an account, we are equally compelled to be satisfied with their bare word. So, that taking the matter in its true light, the present proposition is neither more nor less, than a demand the minister makes on parliament for 618,000l. which he says was expended in the public service; but of the reality of such expenditure, we properly know no more than we do of any sum of a like amount, expended by any prince in Europe. We are precisely as well informed now how this debt was incurred, by the curious account lying on the table, as we were in 1769, without any account.He next attacked lord North on his denying he was minister when he brought a like message, eight years since, and obtained the object of his errand. This he treated as the most shameful and barefaced evasion. He declared the senti ments of that administration, which from his post of Chancellor of the Exchequer, of which he formed a part, he stood therefore doubly bound, both as an individual, and a member of the cabinet. In the next place, as he was the bearer of the message, he stood pledged as the messenger, or the representative of the sovereign. The message was to demand a certain sum of money to pay the King's debts; the condition that accompanied it, though not contained in the message, was, that no applications of a like nature would be made hereafter. Who was to impart them to the House? The bearer of the message, and no other. But, allowing that the noble lord was neither bound, as a member of the cabinet, an individual, or messenger representing his sovereign, he stood nevertheless in a mixt official and ministerial situation, from which it is impossible for him to recede; he came to parliament, as the minister of the House of Commons, and Chancellor of the Exchequer. He was responsible as minister, for his ministerial assurances, as much then, as at present; and as Chancellor of the Exchequer, he was bound by the nature of his office to know that his assu rances were founded in truth. Take, then, the matter in the noble lord's own way; does he not stand on the precise ground he did then? Did he not come in 1769, as well as in 1777, as minister of the House of Commons and Chancellor of the Exchequer, not as first lord of the Treasury, and prime minister? But convict the noble lord on any or all of these grounds, and he still imagines he can evade his pursuers. He says he never gave any such promise. Will his lordship rest his justification on that alone? If he does, I pledge myself to prove he did; if he will not, but will contend, that he is not bound in one event by a promise, which he denies in the other, I submit whether in the opinion of all impartial men, the noble lord be not in fact convicted on both grounds. If, however, he should still rest his defence, on his not being responsible for any acts of his, ministerial or official, he would nevertheless on the present occasion, out of regard to his own honour and character, recommend to his lordship, to consent to the proposed Committee of Enquiry; because, if any malversation in office, any waste of public money should have happened, the blame would fall of course on his lordship, as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Not supposing that there existed the least ground for any such imputation, he looked upon it to be peculiarly incumbent on his lordship, cheerfully to go into an enquiry, which, he presumed, would turn out so much to his lordship's honour. He perceived that the charge of ambassadors was a very heavy one; besides, envoys and ministers were sent to every petty state; he knew the disagreeable predicament a minister, willing to make a reform, would stand in, were he to attempt it on his own strength. It would be prodigiously irksome to be obliged to say to a secretary of state, who has so few appointments in his gift, "I must strike off such and such envoys who are in your department, the state of the Civil List requires it, &c." While, on the contrary, if a parliamentary enquiry was set on foot, and arrangements made to take place in consequence of such enquiry, in order to reduce the expenditure, the blame would be shifted from the minister, and the superfluous branches of the Civil List might be pruned, or totally lopped off, without giving any direct offence to those who might, on the mere personal interference of the minister, look upon themselves pointed at, and ill treated. The House then divided on lord John Cavendish's Motion: County, Wm. Plummer, Thomas Halsey. KENT. LEICESTERSHIRE. LINCOLNSHIRE. MIDDLESEX. County, J. Wilkes, J. Glynn. London, J. Sawbridge, Rd. Oliver, Rd. Bull, G. Hayley. NORFOLK. County, sir Ed. Astley, T. W. Coke. Norwich, sir H. Harbord. NORTHAMPTONSHIRE. County, T. Powys. Peterborough, Rd. Benyon. Northampton, hon. Wilb. Tollemache, sir G, Higham Ferrers, Fred. Montague. NORTHUMBERLAND. County, sir Wm. Middleton, |