were crushed; for it was the policy of the of an equality. And as the ability of propresent day to forego the excellent and ceeding will increase in the same propornoble maxim of the Romans, “ parcere tion, in the progress of the one and of the subjectis et debellare superbos,for the in- other, the same proportion of advantage famous proverb of British growth, “ Proud will still remain. The Irish will be able to the humble, and humble to the proud.” to follow the English at an equal dis

He then went into a particular detail of tance in every stage, both in the outset the arguments of the hon. gentlemen re- and in the continuance; but they will lating to commercial advantage. The never be able to accelerate their motion annual revenue of the two kingdoms, he so as to overtake them. said, had been exultingly, but most in- He said, the supposed operation of the equitably, drawn into comparison, to prove cheapness of labour with respect to manuthat Ireland paid no proportion of tax. It factures was totally unfounded, and the was not the number of inhabitants that arguments founded thereon nugatory; and constituted the specific difference in the that until the instant that the price of article of taxation between two countries ; labour was equal in both countries, the but the distinction of internal opulence superiority of manufacture would remain and external advantage. Compare the with the English. That the price of two countries by that line, and it will be labour rises with the growth of manufacfound that Ireland is taxed in a quadruple ture, and is highest when the manufacture proportion more than England. The in- is best. And that the experience of every ternal wealth, and the external advantage day tells us, that where the price of labour of trade and commerce are forty times is highest, the manufacturer is able to sell greater in England than in Ireland. his commodity at the lowest price. He There is, therefore, no ratio of propor- observed, that the difference of duty on tion in the mode of taxing the latter. some of the enumerated imported articles, She is taxed without enjoying the means was so abundantly overbalanced by the of payment. There are several excises other advantages enjoyed by this country, which England is subject to, and wbich that without it, there could not be the she is not. Suppose them laid: they smallest degree of competition in manumust be laid for the sake of oppression, facture on the side of Ireland; nor could not production ; and for the benefit of the that in any degree hurt England. They officers, not of the revenue. Leather is had, he said, a strange opinion of the ex. taxed in England—but what would be the tent of the world, who believed that there product of such a tax, where such innume- was not room enough in it for the trade rable multitudes of the people never wear

of two such islands as these. shoes? You tax candles in England. But

He observed, that most, if not all of the there are two hundred thousand houses petitions on the table, tended to express in Ireland, in which probably a candle, the utmost fears of the consequences that such as you tax, was never lighted. The would arise from granting a fr exportataxes must follow wealth, and not precede tion of sail-cloth and iron to the Irish. At it. If any attempt against this rule is the same time the real matter of fact is, made, there will neither be wealth nor that the Irish have long possessed, withtaxes. This, he said, was the order of out being able to turn it to any advantage nature; which must be followed. And worth mention, the free exportation of as to the judgment of the proportion, it manufactured iron and steel, as well as of must be left to themselves, or they are not sail-cloth. From hence it is evident, that free; and surely the fault of the parlia- the petitioners have not felt from the reality ment of Ireland has never been illiberality what they dreaded in the idea ; and it is in its grants. Restricted from trading, she fairly to be inferred, that the other matters enjoys no opportunity of acquiring wealth of apprehension contained in the petitions to defray and discharge the taxes imposed are as groundless as these; and are only upon her. Enlarge her means of pay-founded, like them, upon mere conjecture. ment, and, in proportion to her ability, she It also appears evidently, that the advanwill enlarge her taxes. An equality of tages possessed by the English are so far commercial advantage could not be esta superior in these respects, that the Irish blished between the two countries. The were not able to prosecute these manufacopulence of the one is a great obstacle to tures to any purpose, nor consequently to the other. The great disproportion of turn their liberty of exportation to ac. capital effectually destroys the possibility count. And this, he said, was so truly the [VOL. XIX. ]


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Yeas {mor. Robinson
Noes { Sir Thomas Egerton



fact, that every species of iron manufac

Tellers. ture, in particular, was actually exported in incredible quantities to Ireland.

He showed from other instances, as well as the present, how hastily and erroneously

: 77 manufacturers are liable to form their opinions upon subjects of this nature; and Sir Cecil Wray's Amendment was conupon what slight grounds alarms are sequently lost ; and the Bill was read a raised, and apprehensions propagated second time. After which, Counsel were amongst them. Particularly, when, some heard on behalf of the Petitions against the years ago, a Bill was brought in for the Bills. They were again heard on the 13th. free importation of woollen yarn from Ireland, an universal alarm was excited, and May 19. The House went into a Competitions were sent in from every quarter, mittee on the Irish Importation Bill. stating and complaining of the ruinous Mr. Gascoyne, when the enumerated consequences which it would produce; the articles came to be necessarily mentioned, Bill, however, passed into a law, and now, in order to fill up the blanks, moved, upon a full experience of its effects, they That woollens, woollen cloths, whole or both feel and acknowledge its beneficial mixed cotton, and cotton goods, whole or tendency. But it was absurd, he said, to mixed painted and printed linens, gun. think that a participation of manufacture powder, and several other articles of infewould be detrimental to this country. Had rior consequence, be exempted.—He next we not seen the woollen manufactory moved, That whatever goods or merchanplanted in different parts of this country'; dize, &c. which should be permitted to be and had we not also seen that it throve by exported under this Act, should have the competition ?

duties laid upon any of them, or the inHe concluded with lamenting that it gredients which composed them, equal to could happen in any one instance, that his those already subsisting in Great Britain, conscience should direct him to take a and likewise of any of the said export part contrary to the opinion of his consti- duties. This clause being agreed to, sir tuents. It had been his invariable aim to W. Bagot proposed a clause, that no iron, protect their rights and interests, and to manufactured, should be permitted to be act at all times as became the senator and exported under this Act, till a duty of representative of the people. In this in- 21. 10s. per ton be laid upon all foreign stance he had dared to act contrary to iron imported into Ireland. These clauses the wishes, though, he was sensible, not being agreed to, sir T. Egerton moved, to the interests, of his constituents. And That the liberty given by this Act to ex. if, from his conduct in this business, he port checks from Ireland, do not take should be deprived of his seat in that place till the parliament of Ireland shall House, as he apprehended he miglit, his take off the duty of one halfpenny per, conduct being disapproved by many of his pound on all linen yarn exported from that chief friends and supporters, as well as by kingdom. all who had opposed him at his election, The question being put, the committee he had the satisfaction of being perfectly divided ; Ayes 33, Noes 79. assured, that he should suffer in the very cause of those who had inflicted the pu

May 25.

The House resumed the adnishment. He should not blame them if journed debate upon the motion made on they did reject him; the event would af- the 15th instant, - That the Bill to permit ford a very useful example ; on the one the importation of certain goods from the hand, of a senator inflexibly adhering to British plantations in America, or the Brie his opinion against interest, and against tish settlements on the coast of Africa, popularity; and, on the other, of consti- into the kingdom of Ireland, be comtuents exercising their undoubted right of mitted." rejection; not on corrupt motives, but Sir George Yonge moved, “ That the from their persuasion, that he whom they debate be further adjourned till this day had chosen had acted against the judg- two months.” ment and interest of those he represented. Lord Newhaven said, he was anxious to

The question being put, That the Bill embrace the first moment to convince the be now read a second time, the House House, that his dividing the House about divided :

a week ago on this question did not pro.

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ceed from a desire to give trouble, but to the commerce of the western world; but comply with the conviction of his own all this shall avail you nothing; America mind; thinking it much better to deter- shall be exempt from taxationi

, they shall mine the fate of the Bill there than to feed be the arbitrary despots of their own soil ; the hopes of the people of Ireland for ten but Ireland must continue for ever to days longer, and then reject it; which smart under the proscribing hand of Great could only aggravate the disappointment, Britain. if it did not pass into a law. That, if it The House divided, on sir G. Yonge's did not pass, he must lament that it ever motion : the Yeas went forth. came into the House; for, as it had not the most favourable reception, the expec. sir. P. J. Clerke:

Tellers for the Yeas, sir G. Yonge, to the highest pitch, and would now be Lord Newhaven was appointed one plunged into the deepest despair. That, of the Tellers for the Noes; but no other while nothing was done, they still had hope member remaining in the House to be a to cherish them, that some time or other second Teller for the Noes, the Yeas re. something might be done; but if this Bill turned into the House; and Mr. Speaker was rejected, the curtain of despair must declared the Yeas had it. So the ques. be drawn on their hopes for ever. That tion was resolved in the affirmative. the evidence at the bar and the counsel who pleaded for them urged, that if this June 2. Earl Nugent declared it to be his Bill passed it would take something from intention, early in the next session, to England; though in the same breath they move for the Irish Importation Bill; and for tell you that something ought to be done this plaiu reason, because the Export Bill, for Ireland: but that that something must without it, would avail them nothing. Irenot be any thing taken from England. land could not afford to give long credit, Arguments too absurd, futile, and ridicu- which, however, she must be necessitated lous to be seriously refuted. He said, he to do, unless in her commerce with our had read all the petitions upon the table plantations she was permitted to barter for, against this and the other Bills, in which and import their commodities : contendwere enumerated various articles in which ing at the same time, that their present the petitioners thought they would be in national necessities demanded this indul jured; but at the same time they sum up gence of the English parliament. the whole of their apprehensions and ter.

Sir George Yonge said, he should oppose rors in this one sweeping objection; that the Bill

, because the present necessities of from the cheapness of labour the Irish Ireland were created by her voting sums would underself them at all foreign mar- of money to government which they were kets. He urged, if this argument was ad. unable to pay; mitted, and at Ireland was never to re.

Lord Newhaven said, he should move ceive any benefit till Great Britain could early in the next session for the Import work as cheap as her, it must strike every Bill to be brought in, not even excepting man that Ireland_can never receive any sugars, though he found the noble lord indulgence from England; and without was inclined to give it up. advantage in trade Ireland must ever re

Mr. Gilbert said, he should propose an main in its present state of indigence, and enquiry into the trade of both countries, Jabour be for ever cheaper than in Eng. before he voted for any more commercial land. All which shewed clearly that the Bills at all.** postponing the Bill could gain it no advocates ; for the argument of the petitioners between the supporters and opposers of the

* “ In consequence of some compromise against it would be the same next year as Irish Bills, although the former shewed a this, and so on for ever, while the poverty great superiority of strength, it was not with of Ireland and the jealousy of England standing thought necessary to give up, for the existed, That if this Bill was rejected, it present, most of the advantages that were ori was at once telling the people of Ireland, ginally intended for that country. Some en. You have soil, you have climate, you have largement, however, was given to the linea millions of inhabitants that you could turn trade, particularly in the article of checks; and to lawful industry, you are blessed with India trades which did not before exist.

some openings given in the African and West

Thus harbours where your fleets of commerce the measure, at its final transit through parliamay ride in safety, and your isle, by the ment, might be rather considered as an open. haud of Providence, is better situated for ing to future service, and an earnest of good

was in

Debate on Sir George Savile's Motion for | which it would now of necessity throw the Repeal of the Quebec Government Bill.] in the way of accommodation between the April 14. Sir George Savile made his pro- provinces and the mother country, he anmised motion for the repeal of the Act of the ticipated the grand objection which he ap14th of his present Majesty, intituled, “ An prehended would be urged against the imAct for making more effectual provision mediate expediency of its repeal. It for the government of the province of would probably be said, that no form of Quebec. Among a variety of arguinents goverument had yet been planned for us adduced in support of this motion, he to establish in its stead; and that it would urged that the Bill for regulating the be most irrational to put an end even to a government of Canada had from the be- bad government before there was a good ginning been considered, by the other one ready to replace it.' But this evil provinces in America, as inimical to their would be avoided, and yet every other liberties, both from the discordant seeds purpose fully answered, if the effects of of religion and government, which it was the repealing Bill were not to take place to sow between them and the inhabitants till after the next session. The Ameof Canada, and from its evident object ricans would be instantly satisfied that the in extending the limits of that province injurious measure would be done away as beyond its former bounds. The jealousies soon as possible, and before the Act raised by this Act had produced a peti should take place, a mode of constitution against it two years ago from the tional government could be laid down for oiher provinces, which unhappily for this them, and ready to be carried into execountry ministry had too rashly rejected. cution, so that no interval of anarchy The revolted provinces had considered any respect to be apprehended. this measure of government as the first He concluded by a warm exhortation to link of those chains which were intended the House not to treat this motion with to bind them in the most ignominious the same indifference that they had so slavery, therefore it was absolute folly long persevered in shewing to every ad. to think of their listening to any terms vice that came from that side of the of accommodation till that link was bro. House; for that the fate of it would ken. Whilst that Bill was unrepealed, bear a very near relation to the fate of it was impossible we should ever per- our proposed treaty of accommodation. suade them that we were earnestly dis- Mr. Joluiffe objected to the propritty posed to leave them in the undisturbed of repealing an Act, whose operation was enjoyment of liberty. He strengthened so extensive, without any petition or evihis deduction by quoting the opinion de dence offered against it, without any comlivered a few days ago in that house by plaints from the inhabitants of the progovernor Johnstone, one of the commis- vince, without any kind of proof that it sioners now going out to America. That was injurious in its effects, or disagreeable gentleman, even after his appointment, in any degree to that people for whom had declared that the Quebec Act ought it was framed: in short, that he had not to be repealed. It was one of the most heard a single argument to induce his necessary concessions to be made by this assent to the motion; and he thought country. Besides the consideration of that as people without doors were so ready our other provinces, he insisted that the to find fault with their representatives, it Act was never a popular one, even among should be their study within doors not to the Canadians themselves : it had indeed give an opportunity for its being said, given pleasure to the little noblesse who you make laws ignorantly in one session, derived a few superior privileges from it; which you repeal in another.” but he had been assured, that it was far

Mr. Fielde wondered it could be asserted from being agreeable to the generality that no argument had been adduced to of the people.

After he had stated the warrant the repeal of the Bill, or that do various disadvantages produced by this complaint had been made against it. He Bill; the effect it had in promoting the asked the hon, member, if the opinion of revolt in America, and the impediments governor Johnstone, one of the commis

sioners going out to treat with America, intention, than as affording any immediate was no argument? Did not the petition benefit, or even as holding out any future ad- presented two years ago contain comvantage, of any great importance to Ireland.” | plaints? And had not the hon. gentleman Annual Register.

who made the motion given reasons suffi

cient to evince the good policy of the re- | opinion upon the measure in agitation ? peal he moved for? The Americans, he He was as sensible as any man to the milisaid, were alarmed at the first passing of tary merit of that great man; he admired the Bill. They looked on it as a sample his virtues, and felt the strongest indignaof that despotic mode in which they should tion at the ungrateful treatment he had be hereafter governed themselves; and if received at the hands of administration ; this Act was one of their first incentives but, notwithstanding those sentiments, he to revolt, was it to be presumed in the could not help considering him as a prejupresent state of affairs that they would diced judge on this occasion, as the Bill not insist on a repeal of it? or that our re- which was now to be repealed was framed fusing to do it now would not confirm in- by the advice of that gentleman ; it was a stead of allaying their alarms ?

favourite Bill of his, and his former incliSir George Howard was against the mo- nation for the principle of it might bias his tion, as he had been assured, from the best present opinion of its operation. Besides, authority, that in the present disposition though he allowed much to the judgment of the Canadians it would be highly dan- and experience of that governor, yet he gerous. Such was the opinion of sir Guy had a strong instance of his being deceived Carleton, a man for whose understanding in his ideas of the Canadians, which he and abilities he had the greatest respect, begged leave to recall to the memory of and who from a long experience of the the House. He had been examined at the habits and temper of that people should bar about four years ago,* when the Bill be supposed well acquainted with the sub- was about to pass that House; and he ject. The Americans, he said, had in then declared that he had very little relivaded Canada at the beginning of the con- ance on the English settlers there, but he test. They tried force and persuasion in had great confidence on those who were vain to gain them over to their interest; stiled the Croix de St. Louis, and improwould it now be prudent or generous in perly the noblesse of that country. Yet us to sacrifice the inclinations of that pro- on the invasion of that province by the vince to the wishes of the others? It was Anglo-Americans, those English, of whom allowed that the noblesse, at least, approved he was so diffident, were the only persons of the present mode of government, though who saved Quebec from falling into the the rest of the people disliked it; was this hands of Montgomery. It had been urged then a crisis to hazard experiments ? In a that there was no petition against the Bill; word, so far was he from agreeing in the but had there not been a petition against expediency of the motion, that he appre- it two years ago, when the repeal of it was hended there were but two things likely moved for by the same hon. member? to cause the loss of that province to this There was indeed no petition now before country; the one was, the repeal of this them, for the ill-treated Americans were Act; the other the recall of sir Guy Carle- no longer our petitioners. Those who ton from the government of Quebec. As wanted argument in favour of the motion, to the circumstance of recalling that ge he referred to the opinion of a man whom neral, he had no kind of certainty whether ministers themselves shewed their reveit was determined on or not; but if it was, rence for, by appointing him their comhe should fear much for the consequence. missioner, though he had always opposed

Mr. T. Townshend avowed the greatest their measures, and denied their abilities to respect for the merits of sir Guy Carleton, govern: it was a disgrace, to be sure, to as well as for the last speaker, though he enact laws ignorantly, as the hon. member was not so happy as to agree with them in had said, but it was the more honourable. that instance. He also saw the danger to to repeal them. which our possession of Canada was ex

The House divided : posed by the recall of that general; but he was surprised to hear that his recall was

Tellers. yet a matter of doubt with any person.

Mr. Thomas Townshend Was not general Haldimand appointed in



Mr. Fielde his stead? And had he not delayed a few days too long on a visit to his friends in

Sir George Howard Switzerland, would he not this day have been in his government of that province, So it passed in the negative. whilst sir Guy would probably have been then at the bar of the House, giving his

* See Vol. 17, p. 1367.

Noes{ Mr. Robinson


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