SUPPLY-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
SUPPLY considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

(1.) Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £59,920, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1869, for the British Embassy Houses, Chapel, Consular Offices, &c. at Constantinople, China, and Japan."

was an enormous increase in the Civil Service Estimates this year. They were divided into seven classes, and there was an increase in every class except two. In the first class there was an increase of £198,000.

THE CHAIRMAN called the hon. and gallant Member to order. The Motion before the Committee is to omit an item from Vote 1, and the discussion must be confined to that item.

COLONEL SYKES said, he had expected an explanation from the Secretary to the Treasury in introducing the Estimates. Failing that, he had asked the Speaker whether he (Colonel Sykes) could make his comments when the first Vote was moved, and the right hon. Gentleman had told him that the Chairman of Committees would decide. There was an increase in the Estimates this year of upwards of £1,200,000, and the country should be made aware of the fact. THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! COLONEL SYKES: Then, Sir, I shall not speak at all.

MR. LABOUCHERE feared that the matter was not fully understood by the Committee. Not only at the Embassy house at Constantinople and Therapia, but at the Consulate houses, everything was in an exceedingly bad state of repair, and the real reason why Parliament was so often asked for money was that we had not adopted the best and cheapest course by pulling down the old houses and building new ones. His hon. Friend near him had spoken of the "sumHe (Mr.

MR. MONK called attention to the proposed expenditure of £9,920 for British Consulate and Embassy houses at Constantinople. A new Embassy house was proposed to be built at Therapia. A most extravagant system was being pursued with respect to the Embassy house at Constantinople; and it was the duty of Parliament to take steps for the reduction of the sums charged upon the country for the purpose of maintaining that establishment. He would quote the following figures to prove how the expenditure had gone on increasing, and to show the enormous sums which had been voted for our Ambassador's houses at Constantinople during the last few years. In 1863-4 the estimate was £4,352, subsequently reduced by a sum of £400; in 1864-5, £3,200; in 1865-6, £3,455; in 1866-7, £3,000; in 1867-8, £4,000; and in 1868-9 it has reached the grand sum of £9,920. He pointed out that last year Parliament had voted a sum of £350 for iron shutters for the building at Therapia, which, if the pre-mer palace" at Therapia. sent proposal were carried out, would be Labouchere) had had the misfortune to money thrown away. Twenty years ago live in that palace; and the fact was that upwards of £80,000 had been expended in so far from being in reality a palace the building an Ambassador's palace at Pera, buildings in question were simply three and since that thousands of pounds had sheds, nothing better than an old farmbeen spent in keeping it in repair. He house, and in exceedingly bad repair. had been at the palace at Therapia, which When he resided there he could hardly was very pleasantly situated on the Bos- sleep in consequence of the number of phorus. He thought it was quite unneces- scorpions with which the house was insary to spend so large a sum for a new fested. Those who had been much in palace, and he hoped the Committee would Turkey knew that when houses became not sanction the proposal. He begged to old and full of holes the scorpions multimove that the Vote be reduced by £6,000, plied with great rapidity. He believed, in the sum proposed for the new Embassy fact, that the thin sheds at Therapia were house at Therapia. by this time quite uninhabitable, and that instead of a few hundreds to buy shutters, it was far cheaper to spend £10,000 in one sum, not to build palaces, but a habitable house for the Ambassador's residence in summer. He would, however, ask the Secretary to the Treasury to defer the vote until after some communication with Con

Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Item of £6,000, for the Embassy
House at Therapia, be omitted from the proposed
Vote,"(Mr. Monk.)

COLONEL SYKES said, that the reduction now proposed was microscopic. There

tantinople, because he (Mr. Labouchere) | make a little display in the shape of a thought he could show how the necessary respectable dwelling for an Ambassador. house could be built without cost to this country. The Sultan had given to this country a tract of land, on which the present dilapidated sheds stood, with a large frontage to the Bosphorus. Now a frontage on the European side of the Bosphorus resembled in comparative value a frontage in a fashionable London street, and this particular frontage was a quarter of a mile in length. No Turk ever thought of occupying so large a frontage as this by his garden; he would place his villa on the borders of the Bosphorus, and let his garden extend in the rear. He thought he was not wrong in stating that when Sir Henry Bulwer was Ambassador at Constantinople, he proposed to sell a small portion of this frontage, which he estimated would fetch £10,000, and with that sum to build a new house. The only feasible objection urged against that plan was that the land was the gift of the Sultan; but he had consulted many Turks as to what their habit was when the Sultan presented them with estates, a thing which frequently occurred, as the Sultan, being heir to all who died intestate within his dominions, had annually a good many estates on his hands. They told him that they sold these presents; that it was the custom of the country, and that there was nothing in the act derogatory to the Sultan. On the contrary, they thought it would be complimentary to the Sultan to replace the three sheds by a handsome building, reared at the cost of a small portion of the outlying grounds. In fact it would be more complimentary to the Sultan to build the Ambassador's house out of funds so obtained than out of money sent from this country. He hoped, therefore, that his hon. Friend would not press his Motion, but that the Secretary to the Treasury would defer the Vote until he had had the means of communicating with Constantinople.

MR. KARSLAKE said, that as one who had spent much time in Constantinople, he knew of no Vote which the Committee should more readily sanction than this. If the Turks had been left to judge of England's power by what they saw among themselves before the Crimean War, their estimate would have been very low. England had nothing in the country to compare with the handsome buildings of the Russians; and though England's prestige had been lately re-established in the East, he thought it would be only prudent to

LORD STANLEY said, that the sum spent on the iron shutters would not be thrown away, as the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Monk) complained, because they would be used in the new building. Touching the question generally, he quite agreed with the hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Labouchere), that the buildings referred to could not be called a palace; they simply formed a country residence of most unpretending character for the British Embassy; and, in answer to the question why they were not pulled down, and replaced by an entirely new and substantial building, he answered that this was precisely what the Government proposed to do, although the operations might extend over two years. At this distance from the locality, which was from personal experience quite unknown to him, he was prepared neither to accept nor reject the proposal referred to by the hon. Member for Middlesex ; but he pointed out that, however worthy of attention the suggestion might be, it had no material bearing on the question at issue, because if, on inquiry, it was found prudent to sell surplus land and devote the proceeds to building the houses required, the sale could be effected at any time hereafter, and the Treasury could then recoup itself from the sum realized; the building must be paid for out of a Vote, and then credit might be given for the proceeds of the surplus lands in the Estimates next year. The question before the Committee naturally divided itself into three branchesWas a house at Therapia necessary? Was the present house in a proper state of repair? And, presuming these questions to be answered in the affirmative, was the proposed mode of dealing with the question sufficiently economical? Respecting the first point, he believed there could be no doubt. We had always had a house at Therapia; because Pera was very unhealthy during the summer, and because it would be extremely inconvenient if our Embassy remained at Constantinople during the summer, when the Government of the country and all the other embassies had removed to Therapia. the second point-a Report received last autumn from the English Ambassador at Constantinople, stated that it would be hardly possible for the gentlemen of the Embassy to continue to inhabit the buildings unless something was done to them; and, as regarded the servants' portion of

On

the building, it was simply unfit for human | Engineers, his opinion being that officers habitation. A recent Report, by Colonel in the Royal Engineers were incompetent Gordon, clearly showed the present house to erect buildings of this character; also, at Therapia was past all repair. With whether an opportunity would be afforded to regard to the manner in which those re- Members of acquainting themselves with the pairs were to be executed, all he could say details? was that a gentleman had been sent out from the Treasury, especially charged with the duty of investigating them and other kindred matters, and the Government had simply abided by his Report.

Gordon he presumed was his own drawings; at all events, he was responsible for it. He did not think there were any specifications at the Treasury; but an estimate had been sent home by Colonel Gordon, and they were acting on his advice in the

matter.

MR. SERJEANT GASELEE contended that a large expenditure of this nature ought not to be sanctioned before the assembling of the new Parliament. He despaired of the present Parliament doing anything really practical or useful with respect to the Estimates.

MR. AYRTON suggested, that perhaps his hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Monk) would be satisfied if the Government engaged not to embark in this expenditure till they knew its extent. The history of those buildings at Constantinople was a somewhat curious one. Some years ago a statement was made to the effect that it was necessary to take some means to secure the Ambassador against the danger of being burnt in the conflagrations which sometimes took place in that city. Upon that a house was begun at a sum of £14,000-enough to build a fine mansion; MR. CHILDERS said, that the House but the work went on until the Government having, in 1863, negatived the Vote for had spent £80,000 and upwards. Then the employment of a civil architect at Con- there was £10,000 for furnishing, and stantinople, the buildings there were prac- finally the expenditure reached £100,000. tically not under the charge of anybody The amount spent annually in keeping the with professional experience. When he house in decorative repair was as much as came to the Treasury in 1865 he found the salary paid to some of our diplomatic that very large estimates of work to be agents at minor Courts. We had appealed done had been sent home, yet there was to the eye of the Turks by providing the nobody to whom application could be made largest Embassy house in Constantinople, for information, the clerk of the works fine Consular buildings, a prison, and a hos having of necessity been brought home and pital, and if in addition to all this the Ampensioned off, at considerable cost, in ac-bassador was to have a country house rivalcordance with the Vote of the House. After careful inquiry Colonel Gordon, then Major Gordon, an officer of Engineers, who had other employment at Constantinople, and who was certified to be perfectly competent to superintend these buildings, was appointed with a salary of £300 a year, and was instructed to go thoroughly into all questions of repairs, and see whether it was proper to preserve the old palace at Therapia or not. Having made that appointment, he left the Treasury long before Colonel Gordon's Report was received, and knew nothing of what had happened since; but, knowing that if Colonel Gordon had not been appointed there would have been no one to do the work at all, and presuming that the Government had acted upon his Report to the best of their discretion, he could not oppose the present Vote. MR. MONK asked, whether the noble Lord would not postpone the item till plans and specifications were before them?

LORD STANLEY said, he was anxious to consult the convenience of the House, but he did not think this was a case for postponement. The feeling of the Committee seemed to be that the preservation of the house at Therapia was desirable. It was admitted that the premises were tumbling to pieces, and it followed that some part of the expense of re-building ought at once to be voted.

ling the other palaces on the Bosphorus let Parliament first be satisfied that the estimated cost would not be exceeded.

MR. M'LAREN said, they could not have an estimate without a specification. An officer of Engineers had sent in a plan, and, according to his idea, the house would cost £10,000; but another man might have quite another idea-might think the house should be finished and decorated in quite a different way, and the house might cost three or four times the amount now talked of. Without a specification the estimate was a sham.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, he presumed that the estimate of Colonel Gordon was made upon certain data, though the specifications might not be in the Treasury; and it would be a most unusual thing for a Committee of Supply to require a specification to be made out in detail for any public buildings. The Government had no intention of exceeding Colonel Gordon's estimate.

MR. OTWAY said, that although it was not usual to ask for specifications, it was the duty of the Minister before proposing a Vote to ascertain that the charge was a proper one. Officers of Engineers were the most expensive gentlemen to be found for the construction of any work, and their employment had cost the country millions. When a Royal Engineer was appointed to

superintend a work another person had to accompany him to take out the quantities. They had no reason to suppose there was any specification in this case, and from the experience at Constantinople they might look for an expenditure of £40,000 instead of £10,000. He should recommend the hon. Gentlemen to divide against the item.

Question put.

portunity of criticizing it. He believed they were retaining Consular establishments in Japan which were outrageously extravagant. With respect to this Vote he thought the House ought to have further information before it voted so large a sum. It was almost impossible to express an opinion upon a lump Vote of £179,000.

SIR HARRY VERNEY said, that the Government ought to be prepared to fur

The Committee divided :-Ayes 20; nish some information as to the places Noes 37 Majority 17.

:

Original Question again proposed.

COLONEL SYKES wished to have some explanation of the item respecting Consular buildings in China.

where and the objects for which the expenditure was to be incurred. There was one source of expenditure of which the Committee ought to be made aware. We had succeeded in getting China thrown open to foreigners, and some of the most MR. ALDERMAN LUSK also wished to disorderly characters from Europe had gone hear some explanation respecting the sums there. It was absolutely necessary that asked for Consular buildings abroad, espe- there should be some British authority to cially in China and Japan. He objected control these persons. If by admitting to the present arrangement of the Esti- them we destroyed the authority of the mate, which was very puzzling and pre- Native Government, we ought in some devented hon. Members from knowing pre- gree to replace it, at least to the extent cisely what they were asked to vote. He of keeping our own countrymen in order. doubted the propriety of laying out the money which was asked for Consular buildings in Japan, and as an illustration of the necessity for mature consideration in regard to expending money in the country he referred to a paragraph in The Times' City Article of that morning, which mentioned that there was a town near Yohokama which was magnificent for a settlement, and was on the shores of a lake as large as the Lake of Geneva. Unless details were forthcoming he should divide the Committee on the item respecting Japan.

MR. CHILDERS observed, in reference to a remark of the last speaker, that the Estimates were now arranged in accordance with the provisions of an Act of Parliament passed a few years ago, and in accordance with the advice of the Public Accounts Committee. As to this particular Vote, in 1865 the Treasury, finding that large demands were made from the Foreign Office for Consular buildings in China and Japan, determined not to sanction at that time any additional expenditure; but merely took a Vote to finish the works then in hand, and sent out an officer to visit the different stations and report as to the requirements of each. That being so, it was much to be regretted that the old fault had now been again made of not giving distinct details in the Estimates of the sums required in each case. He might add that when the consular Vote came before the Committee he should take the op

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH said, he held in his hand a list of thirteen places in China and three in Japan at which the money would be expended. Of the total of £179,000, £50,000 was the estimated cost of new buildings at Shanghai alone. In addition new buildings were required at Canton, Foochow, Ningpo, and other places. The principle of this expenditure had been already sanctioned by the Treasury and by previous Votes of the Committee; and the total Vote was submitted this year on the principle that if the expenditure was to be incurred, the sooner the money was spent the better, for then the Government could dispense with the services of the gentleman who was superintending the outlay Major Crossman, who had proved himself to be a useful public servant, had been sent out to Canton, and was responsible for the way in which this money was spent in China and Japan. There was every reason to suppose that he would conduct the business with due regard to economy. He might remind the Committee that large sums had been realized by the re-sales of land at Shanghai, at prices beyond its original cost; the aggregate gain would perhaps be £50,000 or £60,000, and therefore this outlay was not altogether one of money out of pocket.

MR. CHILDERS thought the Secretary to the Treasury was mistaken in one respect; for he did not believe that the House was committed to this expenditure. On