other year. effect

"To-morrow? oh that's sudden :
Spare him, spare him!"

The noble Lord had said in | racter of the policy of the Government. It
was very difficulty to discover what were the
arguments in support of the Irish Church
Establishment. Protestant gentlemen of
high rank and station had held meetings
in Ireland in its favour. What did they
demonstrate? That the Protestant popu-
lation of Ireland possessed a sufficient
amount of wealth to be able to maintain
their own Church if deprived of the advan-
tage-if an advantage it were-of State
support. But the only argument adduced
by these gentlemen was that of "No
surrender," which was now abandoned by
the noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn
the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
It was said that his right hon. Friend the
Member for South Lancashire was not in
a position to bring this question forward
because he had not dealt with it while he
was in office; but the propriety of dealing
with questions of this kind depended very
much on the state of public opinion, and in
respect of the Irish Church public opinion
had ripened with extraordinary rapidity.
Whom might they thank for that rapid
ripening of public opinion? The right
hon. Gentleman at the head of the Go-
vernment. That right hon. Gentleman had
given the House during last Session a very
remarkable illustration of how rapidly, un-
der the process of education, an opinion of
one character may change and become an
opinion of quite a different character.
Public opinion demanded an immediate
consideration of and decision upon this
Irish Church question.
It had been sup-
posed that, owing to the famine and to emi-
gration, the proportion between the num-
bers of the different creeds in Ireland had
been greatly altered, and it was asserted
that the Established Church had made a
great number of converts. In 1860 when
the Bill for the decennial Census was be-
fore the House, his right hon. Friend the
Member for Oxford proposed that Returns
of the number of members in each of the
religious communions should be included in
the Census of Ireland. That proposition
was acceded to by the right hon. Gentleman
who so ably represented the minority of
Dublin, doubtless from an anxiety to arrive
at the truth, and believing that the facts
would turn out to be as he supposed. What
was the result? By the Census Returns
of 1861 it appeared that the whole of the
members of the Established Church in Ire-
land numbered only 693,000 out of a
population of 5,500,000. The House had
heard a great deal of Protestant Ulster;

He did not know on what this doctrine
rested that the present House of Commons
was not competent to pronounce an opinion
as to whether the Irish Church was to
cease to exist as an Established Church.
It was a convenient doctrine for the Minis-
try, but was it a constitutional one? The
present House of Commons was as com-
petent as any House of Commons could be
to decide the question. The House had
agreed to abolish flogging in the army, de-
spite the opposition of the Government.
They hoped before long to deal with the
Irish and Scotch Reform Bills in such a
manner that their authors would scarcely
know them, as they had done with respect
to the English Bill. He wanted to know
why the question of the Irish Church was to
be isolated from all other questions? If the
Government had hitherto avoided a condem-
nation of their policy it was because they
had no policy to be condemned. Upon this
question the Ministry seemed to have no
policy but that of delay. They appeared
not to have made up their own minds so far
as to tell the House what they themselves
intended to do. Was the policy of ascen-
dancy to be upheld by the Government or
were they prepared to act on the policy
which had been inaugurated in 1829 ?
That was a question which the House of
Commons were entitled to have answered.
The Executive seemed very anxious to
avoid responsibility in this and other mat-
ters. They had delegated the greater part
of their own responsibility to Royal Com-
missions, and the rest they placed at the
disposal of this House. The noble Lord
the Secretary for Ireland in the discus-
sion on the Motion of the hon. Member
for Cork (Mr. Maguire) announced to
the House that a part of the Ministerial
responsibility was to grant a charter to the
Catholic University. [The Earl of MAYO:
To a Catholic University.] If the noble
Lord wished him to substitute one article
for another he would readily acquiesce,
and give the Government any benefit they
might derive from the change. Well, a
charter to a Catholic University having
been announced as a part of the Ministerial
policy, in a few nights afterwards the noble
Lord, replying to a question from an hon.
Member, said the Government was quite
in the hands of the House as regarded the
Catholic University. That was the cha-

Froude tells

con

but what did the same Census show? That, it would have that effect.
though the Protestants and the Roman
Catholics were nearly equal in Ulster, the
Roman Catholics were actually in a small
majority. The hon. and learned Gentle-
man the Solicitor General had asked,
whether the disestablishment of the Irish
Church would be a message of peace to
Ulster? Did the hon. and learned Gentleman
know that the members of the Established
Church were only 20 per cent of the popula-
tion of that province? In Leinster they were
12 per cent, in Munster 5 per cent, and in
Connaught 4 per cent. Looking at this
question either as one of justice or one of
statesmanship, ought the Church Esta-
blishment to be maintained in any one of
those four provinces-even in Ulster, where
the members of the Established Church
amounted to what was said to be the large
figure of 20 per cent? After the Census
of 1861 was published public attention was
turned to this question, and recently almost
all Roman Catholics of position in Ireland
had signed a declaration denying that they
were by any means indifferent to the
grievance involved in the existence of the
Established Church, and demanding re-
ligious equality. He regarded the ques-
tion of the Establishment less as a ques-
tion of money than in its bearing on
the social and political relations of life
in Ireland; and he maintained that those
relations could not be placed on a sound
basis so long as the principle of ascen-
dancy was maintained, and exclusive
privileges given to a small proportion
of the population. It could not but be
a grievance to Roman Catholics, in
a parish where they were numbered by
thousands, to see a Protestant clergyman
installed as rector, and entitled to treat
their priest as an intruder, although the
Protestant congregation might be numbered
only by tens or even less. The existence
of the Establishment moreover introduced a
taint of rancour into almost every question
that was discussed in Ireland. In case of
an election of a surgeon to a dispensary or
a clerk to a union, the question always
asked respecting a candidate was whether
he were a Protestant or a Roman Catholic,
his creed and not his fitness being regarded
as the important point. The disestablish-
ment of the Church would not only take
away this taint, but would, he believed, be
of incalculable advantage to the vitality of
the Protestant religion. Indeed, he would
not for a moment favour such a measure
did he not conscientiously believe that

us, in the 10th volume of his History, of
a shrewd Devonshire man, named Tre-
mayue, who was sent over by Cecil, to re-
port on the state of Ireland. His report
in substance was, "Give the Irish good
laws, do not meddle with their religion,
and leave their lands to themselves, and
they will be good subjects.' Unhappily
this advice was not followed. The Es-
tablishment was associated in the minds
of the people with persecution, conquest,
and confiscation, and nothing could be
more calculated than such a feeling to
impede the spread of Protestantism. The
House had been warned to beware of
alienating the affections of the Protes-
tants of Ulster; but surely this consi-
deration was not entitled to any weight
unless it could be shown that the main-
tenance of the Establishment was
sistent with justice and expediency. If he
might venture to address his Protestant
fellow-countrymen he would exhort them
not to embark in a struggle which could
have but one result. Let them not excite
the anger and animosity of rival creeds,
but let them have confidence in the religion
of which they were adherents, and fing
aside the artificial supports which, instead
of sustaining their Church, had really hin-
dered its healthy and vigorous action. Let
them be satisfied with a fair field and no
favour; and for his own part he felt con-
vinced that, when these supports were with-
drawn, the Church would be maintained
without difficulty by its own members, and
would be in a more efficient state than it
was at present. The duty of Parliament
was clear, and the maxim which it was
bound to adopt with reference to all reli-
gious denominations in Ireland was—

"Tros Tyriusque mihi nullo discrimine agetur." Until we acted on that principle we could never expect loyalty and contentment to prevail among the Irish people.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY moved the adjournment of the debate. Motion agreed to.

Debate adjourned till To-morrow.

MUTINY BILL.-CONSIDERATION. (Mr. Dodson, Sir John Pakington, The Judge Advocate General.)

Bill, as amended, considered.

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON appealed to the noble Lord (Lord Otho Fitzgerald) not to insist on the Amendment which he had succeeded in carrying on Thursday night.

LORD ELCHO said, he wished to call | tation to the phrase "balance of power,' attention to an Amendment which had been but supposed that it meant the question of made in Committee by striking out of the European police and national defence. Preamble the words "and the preservation Why did our army go to the Crimea, if of the balance of power in Europe." That not to maintain the balance of power? Amendment was suggested by the hon. More recently we were very nearly going Member for Chatham (Mr. Otway), who to war in favour of Denmark, to preserve was carried away by his enthusiasm at car- the balance of power. Questions might rying the abolition of corporal punishment, arise with regard to Egypt and Belgium, and it was agreed to without a division. that might make it the duty and interest There was, at the time, a large gather- of this country to interfere. He did not ing on the Opposition Benches, but the believe that the day would come again right hon. Member for South Lancashire when England would play so prominent a (Mr. Gladstone) was absent busied, he part as she had formerly done in foreign. presumed in preparing the thunder for politics; but, at the same time, he was not to-night's debate. Now, the words they prepared to admit that 30,000,000 of struck out were of long standing. In the Englishmen were to have no voice in EuPreamble to the Act of 1689 the words rope, and that our armies were to have no influence whatever in the affairs of the Continent. This might be a mere matter of sentiment; but he felt certain that Lord Palmerston, had he been alive, would have resisted the Motion which was made on Friday night. As he felt strongly on this subject, and wished to give the House an opportunity of re-considering the determination they then came to, he begged to move the re-insertion in the Preamble of the words to which he had referred.

were

"Whereas it is judged necessary that during this time of danger several of the forces now on foot should be continued and others raised for the safety of the Kingdom, for the proper defence of the Protestant religion, and," he was sorry to add, "for the reducing of Ireland."

In 1690, the following words were added
"and for carrying on the war against
France." In 1701, these words were in-
troduced-

"For the safety of this Kingdom, for the common defence of the Protestant religion, and for the preservation of the liberties of Europe." These words were repeated in the second year of the reign of Queen Ann; but in the Act of 1 Geo. I., (1714), the words used were

"For the guard of His Majesty's Royal person, for the safety of this Kingdom, and the suppress ing of the present rebellion."

The passage to which he now wished particularly to call attention first occurred in the Act of 1727, the Preamble to which declared

"That this army is raised for the safety of this Kingdom, the defence of the possessions of the Crown of Great Britain, and the preservation of the balance of power in Europe."

These words, therefore, could claim a prescription from 1727 to the present year, and to a certain extent were illustrative of the history of the country. Under these circumstances there certainly ought to be good grounds adduced for striking them out. The only reason brought forward last year by the hon. Member for Chatham was, that the words were not true, and that the army was not maintained for the preservation of the balance of power in Europe. Now he held the contrary opinion.

He gave no conventional interpre

COLONEL NORTH seconded the Motion, remarking that the Opposition had the other night, in the absence of their Leader, run riot. It was with the greatest difficulty that the late Judge Advocate General had obtained a hearing; and as for the present one, he had no chance.

in line 7, after the word "Crown," to inAmendment proposed, in the Preamble, sert the words "and the preservation of the balance of power in Europe."—(Lord Elcho.)

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON remarked that the words had been in the Mutiny Act for so long a time, and meant so very little, that he was surprised to find that the hon. Member for Chatham thought it worth his while to strike them out. At the same time, he was still more astonished that his noble Friend should think it worth his while to re-insert them.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and negatived.

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON moved the insertion of words empowering the military authorities in Ireland to billet soldiers in private houses.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON remarked, that, as the right hon. Gentleman

had, on a former occasion, admitted that the practice of billeting soldiers in private houses ought not to be resorted to, except in the most pressing emergency, he trusted the Motion would not be objected to, as it was impossible for the military authorities in Ireland on a very short notice to make the arrangements which would be necessary in the event of a change in the existing state of things.

LORD OTHO FITZGERALD said, after the remarks of his noble Friend, he would But not press the matter to a division. he hoped the right hon. Baronet would take the question into consideration, otherwise he would certainly move the Amendment next year.

Amendment agreed to.

Bill to be read the third time To-morrow.

MARINE MUTINY BILL.-COMMITTEE. (Mr. Dodson, Mr. Corry, Lord Henry Lennox.) Order for Committee read.

In reply to Mr. AYRTON,

LORD HENRY LENNOX said, he assented to the introduction of Amendments similar to that made in the Mutiny Bill, and if the hon. Member for Chatham (Mr. Otway) were not in his place to move the omission of the words in reference to corporal punishment, he (Lord Henry Lennox) would move the Amendment for him.

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

MR. OTWAY moved the following Amendments, which were agreed to:—

PRISONS (COMPENSATION TO OFFICERS) BILL.

On Motion of Sir JAMES FERGUSSON, Bill to provide Compensation to Officers of certain discontinued Prisons, ordered to be brought in by Sir JAMES FERGUSSON and Mr. Secretary GATHORNE HARDY.

Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 80.]
House adjourned at half after
Twelve o'clock.

www.

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Tuesday, March 31, 1868.

MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading-
Marine Mutiny *; Mutiny*; Inclosure (61).
Second Reading — (£6,000,000) Consolidated
Fund; London Coal and Wine Duties Con-
tinuance (59).

Committee-Indian Railway Companies (63).
Third Reading-Railways (Extension of Time)*
(36).

EDUCATION-ANSWER TO ADDRESS. The QUEEN'S Answer to the Address of the 23rd Instant, reported.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-REPORT OF
SELECT COMMITTEE.

RESOLUTION.

THE EARL OF MALMESBURY, in calling attention to the Report of the Select Committee on "the Business of the House," said, their Lordships would recollect that last year a noble Earl (the Earl of Shaftesbury) brought under their consideration the necessity of appointing a Select Committee to investigate two or three points of some importance with reference to carrying on the Business of the House in an Clause 27, line 36, leave out from "any to any marine to corporal punishment," in lines 39 improved form. The first point to which and 40, inclusive, and insert "no court martial the Committee directed its attention was shall for any offence whatever committed in time whether the House ought to meet at an of peace, within the Queen's dominions, have earlier hour than it now did; but, on conpower to sentence any marine to corporal punish-sideration, it was found that it would be ment." Lines 44 and 45, leave out " "disgraceful conduct or any breach of the Articles of War." House resumed. Bill reported; as amended, to be consi- peals, to call upon him at once to take his dered To-morrow.

MARRIAGES (FRAMPTON MANSEL) BILL.
On Motion of Sir JAMES FERGUSSON, Bill to
render valid Marriages heretofore solemnised in
the Chapel of Ease of Frampton Mansel, in the
parish of Sapperton, in the county of Gloucester,

ordered to be brought in by Sir JAMES FERGUSSON
and Mr. Secretary GATHORNE Hardy.
Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 79.]

very inconvenient and unfair to the Lord Chancellor, who probably had been sitting all the morning for six hours hearing ap

place on the Woolsack and enter upon the Public Business of the House without any rest or any interval whatever. The Committee had, therefore, decided not to recommend any change in the present arrangement in that respect. The question of the use of proxies, which had lately attracted attention. The privilege enjoyed by Peers, some notice, next engaged the Committee's of being represented in the House by

proxies when unable to attend personally, inasmuch as those who were not present was a very ancient and historical one, it at the debates were not supposed to have had become prescriptive, and belonged to a full knowledge of the points on which the Estate of the Peerage in the same they would have to vote. On the other way as the privilege of sending their hand, there were many Members of their proxies to the other House belonged to the Lordships' House who, though prevented Estate of the Commons-for the Members from being present in the House by illness of the other House were in reality the or through employment under the Crown, proxies of the Estate of the Commons. In were yet perfectly cognizant of what was the primeval days when our Constitution going on there, and as capable of giving originated, the Estates of the Realm were an opinion on subjects brought before Parthree, or, as some said, two. First, there liament, as if they were present and heard was the Church, which was represented the debates. Such a case it would be easy by the Archbishops and Bishops, and next to find at the present moment in the late the lay Peers. Those two Estates, not Prime Minister, whom nobody could say being very numerous, could easily meet was not as capable of giving his opinion under the same roof. But of course that on a political question as if he were then was not the case with the Commons, who sitting in that House. The same remark were too multitudinous to assemble in one might apply to some of our Ambassadors place, and they according sent to Parlia- at Foreign Courts. The Committee, howment their representatives, or, in other ever, though divided in opinion, decided words, their proxies. No doubt, then, that, on the whole, it would be preferable the Committee had stated correctly that it to put an end to the use of proxies, and was a privilege inherent in the Peers to send that an Order of the House should be their proxies to that House in the same adopted to that effect. They further reway as the Commons sent the proxies of commended that, to prevent that Order their Estate to the House of Commons. The from being lightly suspended, twice the Committee, however, considered whether usual length of notice should be given of any change should be made in regard to any Motion for its suspension. The Comthat practice. It was clear that the pri- mittee also recommended that Notices of vilege of the Peers to use proxies could Questions should be placed on the Minutes only be put an end to by Act of Parlia- and not given privately, as was now often ment; but there were abundant precedents done; but, at the same time, they did not to show that the House itself could, by its propose to prevent Questions as to sudden own Orders, regulate the mode of exer- or pressing affairs being put to Ministers cising the privilege. For instance, in without notice. With respect to the the reign of Charles II. on an occasion appointment of Committees on Private when proxies were used, the Duke of Bills, the Select Committee recommended Buckingham, who was not very scrupu- that the Committee of Selection should lous, brought more than twenty proxies in exercise its discretion as to calling upon his pocket, and an Order was then made Peers to serve, although they might be that no Peer should hold more than two absent from the House. proxies. It would be seen, moreover, by the Report of the Select Committee, that no Peer could hold more than two proxies; that they could not be used in Committee, nor in judicial proceedings; and that they must be entered before three o'clock of the day on which they were to be used. These things showed that the House could by its own Orders, regulate the use of proxies. The inconvenience attending the use of proxies was much discussed in the Select Committee; and although there was some difference of opinion as to how the privilege should be dealt with, it was thought that their Lordships' House would be more popular, and would enjoy more confidence with the country in respect to its decisions, if that privilege were waived,

Select Committee on Business of the
Moved, "To agree to the Report of the
House."-(The Lord Privy Seal.)

THE EARL OF CARNARVON said, that his noble Friend's argument went in one way and his vote in another, for he (the Lord Privy Seal) argued in favour of proxies, while he concluded by asking their Lordships to vote their abandonment. There would not, he thought, be much difference of opinion among their Lordships on this subject. His noble Friend said the Committee had come to a resolution to abandon proxies, because the use of them was not popular out-of-doors. But his impression was that the feeling of the Committee had so not much reference to the question of