Do not tell me, Sir, after that, that no Roman Catholic lawyer has ever and even recently supported the Church in Ireland decided on not requesting the abandonment | clergy of the Establishment. Who shall measure but the modification of the trust under the effects which might be produced upon the which the property of the Irish Church is by the spirit of proselytism which has of late half-informed, the irreligious, and the indigent, held by the Crown, and it was on that broken loose, if universally quickened in the ground that the Crown assented to the breasts of unendowed perverters, without stanmeasure. The question now raised is ano- dard, articles, or creed, stimulated by the lust of ther question as far as the Irish branch of uncertain but indefinite gain.” the Church is concerned; you ask the Sovereign to resign the trust she has sworn to maintain, not for the purpose of modifying that trust, not for the purpose of alter--or that all Roman Catholic lawyers are ing the appropriation of the property in actuated by the same intolerant spirit that the sense of the trust, but that the pro- has been displayed by the hon. and learned perty of the Church in Ireland, which the Gentleman who has just addressed the Crown holds on trust, shall be placed in House. It seems to me that the Liberals our hands for the purpose of total aliena- represent the temper of modern Rome, the tion. That is the proposal of the right spirit of Ultramontanism. As an expreshon. Gentleman the Member for South sion of the school of Cardinal Cullen, his Lancashire. Far be it from me to touch speech is intelligible enough. But comupon the sacred ground of what may be pare the speech we have just heard from the conscientious feelings of Her Majesty. the hon. and learned Gentleman with the But the step you are asked to take is un-extract I have just read to the Committee precedented-unprecedented in the annals of Parliament. Well, Sir, there have been many strange arguments used; and one of them was used to-night by the hon. and learned Member for Tiverton (Mr. Denman). He said that he was a lawyer, and that there was no Roman Catholic lawyer, that he knew, but was anxious for the alienation of the property that the Church of Ireland possesses. Let me remind the Committee of the opinion in respect to disestablishment of the Irish Church which was expressed by an eminent and Catholic Judge who died lately-a learned person, who once had a seat in this House, and whose attainments were well-known to hon. Members. The extract is from a pamphlet of the late Mr. Justice Shee entitled A Proposal for Religious Equality in Ireland. It was not the expression of opinion in a hasty speech, but a calm and deliberate conclusion. He wrote from the pamphlet of the late Mr. Justice Shee! We can judge from the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman, and from the temper of it, who are the instructors that are guiding or leading the Liberal party. I have observed, throughout this debate, that the arguments addressed to the Committee by the hon. Gentleman opposite have nearly all been borrowed from the letter addressed by Dr. Manning to Earl Grey. Almost every argument has been reproduced, among others the leading argument that the Church is an injury as well as an insult to the Irish people. That all these arguments are borrowed almost verbatim from the letter to Earl Grey of the prelate who, previous to his elevation, declared that the function of his Church was to subdue or to subjugate this country. That is the temper of moderu Rome. That is the temper with which we have to deal. That is the temper in "If my opinion were less decided than it is on deference to which we find the Leaders of the meaning of the Catholic Oath, or I deemed the Liberal party repudiating opinions that the policy recommended by Mr. Miall more hope- they held two or three years ago, or about ful than I believe it to be, I should still think to join in an attempt, which is illustrated our adoption of it unwise. The Church by law established in Ireland is the Church of a commuby the declaration that the Protestant nity everywhere considerable in respect of pro- Church shall not exist in Ireland. There perty, worth, intelligence, and the power of are some other topics on which I wish to avenging a disgrace on the religion of the Irish address the Committee. Sir, I observed people. It is strong in the supposed identity of that the right hon. Member for North its interests with those of the Church of England. Nothing short of a convulsion, tearing up both Lancashire (the Marquess of Hartington), Establishments by the roots, could accomplish its and several other hon. Gentlemen oppooverthrow. Nor is it by any means clear that its site, in addressing the House, have said, overthrow would benefit our religion. With the exception of the zealots who disturb the diocesessions of bigotry, in the shape of a No "Let us not hear in this House expresof Dublin, Ferns, Cashel, and Tuam, the sapping and mining' of religious belief has not been thought a worthy occupation by the prelates or Popery' cry." Will he let me ask, what more cogent bigotry could be evinced than that of the speech of the hon. and learned traversed nearly the whole of the most was the result of his observations? He visited Armagh, and in his tour he spe- a palace, and four churches had been adds "Ilis Grace found Armagh a nest of mud Here, then, we find drawn by an impartial "I must, as a public officer, whose duties called him into close contact with the clergy throughout the most remote, and (by all other of the higher classes) deserted parts of the kingdom, declare, dence, and merit, and political influence of the in common justice, that were it not for the resiparochial clergy, every trace of refinement and civilization would disappear." Now, I will ask anyone whether the records of the Roman Catholic Church testify to the civilizing properties of that Church? Cast your glance over the map of Europe, the Church of Rome is dominant in Spain, and tell me has civilization advanced in Spain? Is Spain not one of the most retrograde countries in Europe? Pass on then to Poland-a country which is a conquered country, and in which-thus antici pating the views and policy of many Members of this House-the Emperor of Russia maintained the Roman Catholic Church in all its splendour. I ask, is there on the face of Europe a more degraded country -a country in which the mass of the people were less educated or less civilized? Remember the testimony of Lord Macaulay, your own historian, on this point "Go where you will," he said, "the result is the same. Go to the Protestant cantons of Swit zerland and you will find them advanced in civilization and wealth, far before the Roman Catholic cantons. Look at Scotland with her barren soil, but her Protestant religion. But go to the South of Ireland, and you will find agriculture in its most primitive state." ["No!"] Hon. Gentlemen may cry "No;" but statistics which have been laid before the House prove it. [A right hon. MEMBER: It is not true.] I say that the figures prove that in the South of Ireland thousands of acres have been converted into pasture land, which were once cultivated. Well, Sir; but then it is said that the Church in Ireland ought to be disestablished, because the numbers of her communionists are comparatively small. Is this the reason, according to the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, why she must be considered to have no religion, and to be unworthy to exist. Sir, I conclude that the hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who use this as an argument never attend Divine service in a church which has only a small congregation. If, Sir, the truth and value of religion is to be decided merely by numbers, Christianity is a mistake; for I am sorry to say that Christians are a minority in the world. If the truth of religion is to be decided by numbers, what would have been said of Christianity when it first appeared in the world? On the same supposition the Apostles must have been sent upon a fruitless mission. But now it seems that the Church in Ireland is to be condemned as a Church of no religion, because she does not act in the spirit of offensive proselytism-for avoiding which she was warmly defended by the late Mr. Justice Shee. Your arguments represent but one thing, a foregone conclusion, that for the convenience of party you would destroy an Establishment that has existed for 300 years. There can be no other interpretation than this; it is an interpretation that I am very unwilling to accept: it is that the Liberal party are so alarmed by Fenianism; the right hon. Member for Lancashire's nerves have sustained such a shock, that he can no longer recommend this country to suffer the existence of an Established Church in Ireland. Remember the first speech of the right hon. Gentle man. He referred to four or five periods, concluding with the year 1829. He said, "You have always yielded to terror. There is a dangerous conspiracy now in Ireland; and it is extending into England, yield again ;" and the inference from this argument clearly is that as previous Parliaments have yielded to the fear of Irish conspiracies, this Parliament therefore has no alternative but to yield also. I ask hon. Members whether they accept that argument or not? If you accept it, where is such a course to end? If you thus give a premium to conspiracy, you must declare that the executions that have taken place are judicial murders; and you justify the feeling that has prompted these conspiracies. It is a grave matter that the argument of fear should be used successfully in the House of Commons. But I deny that this demand for the disestablishment of the Irish Church is made by the great masses of the Irish people; and I say distinctly that it is made by the Irish hierarchy headed by Dr. Cullen. Upon this matter I will read a declaration which has been read before, and which was made on the part of the Meath Tenant Right Society. I quote from a pamphlet on An Inquiry into the Causes of the Poverty and Discontent in Ireland, page 22 "The following opinion of the Meath Tenant Right Society is worthy of attention. It was contained in an address to the inhabitants of that county, adopted at a meeting of the society held at Navan on the 26th November, 1865, the very Rev. John Nicolls, P. P., and V.G., in the chair; and the Revs. Thomas Lynch, V.F., and Michael Tommy, C.C., acting as secretaries :— The one, question. Other agitations such as that against the great, the sole question for Ireland, is the land the Established Church are got up for party pur poses; would infuse an element of bigotry into the already sufficiently disturbed relations between landlord and tenant; would effect the ruin of thousands of tenants, and precipitate that social catastrophe which we are anxious to avert." Are these Roman Catholic priests less Roman Catholic than the Irish people? How come they to preside, as I have shown, at agricultural meetings? Who will tell me that their opinion is not as good an opinion as others that have been quoted? Cardinal Cullen demands the dis establishment of the Irish Church; it is in deference to his demands and to those of the Roman Catholic prelates, and to the persuasions of their colleague, Dr. Manning, that the House of Commons is to enter upon this novel course. I will give you proof of it. The right hon. Baronet who is at the head of the Military Department (Sir John Pakington) spoke in this House in 1865, and said "The House will permit me to read a letter which was adverted to by my right hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Whiteside) in a former de called the National Association, for particular objects, and with the concurrence, sanction, and support of Archbishop Cullen, of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. The letter in question was written by the Secretary of that Association, Irish Times of this day contains an announce and addressed to an Irish journal :- Sir,-The ment that the Established Church has been with drawn from the programme of the National Asso ciation, and the questions to which it will confine I beg to inform you that there is no foundation its attention will be Tenant Right and Education. for the above statement; and the intentions of the Association in relation to the Irish Church Es tablishment have undergone no modification, and that the gentlemen with whom rests the direction in their determination to have no compromise with of the policy of the Association are unanimous the Establishment or its advocates, and to spare no effort for its overthrow.'"-[3 Hansard, clxxix. 1077.] bate. An Association has been formed in Dublin, That declaration shows that Cardinal Cullen condemns the opinion of the late Mr. Jus tice Shee, and is opposed to the opinion, expressed by the members of the Meath Agricultural Society. There cannot be a doubt that hon. Gentlemen opposite have accepted their policy with respect to Ireland from Cardinal Cullen and Dr. Manning, and this brings me to another matter. It is said that the existence of the Irish Church is an insult; and why? Because the Roman Catholic hierarchy object to it. Go back in the history of Ireland and you fare of his country. There is a letter that he has published which shows that he was defeated in his attempt to be returned again to this House, because he was not favoured by the Roman Catholic hierarchy, because he had not accepted as fully what is called the Episcopal policy. The letter is dated the 28th February, 1866, and it contains the following extract : "Possibly, also, they considered that the result of this episcopal policy' is that the Irish people (i.e. the occupiers of land in Ireland) are now unrepresented in Parliament; for it is quite apparent that the majority of the Irish county Memsonify the British element, and the other county bers are nominated by Tory landlords who perMembers are virtually elected by Catholic Bishops who embody the Roman element; while the Irish element is thus practically extinguished and dishaps, partly account for the Fenian organization franchised. This state of Irish politics may, perwith its attendant evils, as well as for other consequences not necessary to specify at present." Now, Sir, when I remember the position Mr. Vincent Scully held in this House, and having great respect for his character, I believe his to be a true description of the representation of Ireland. In another part of the same letter he states will find this. Whenever circumstances if he does not accept that which has been have occurred, that have tended to abate described as the episcopal policy; if he the division that exists between the Ro- does not become a candidate for Parliaman Catholics and the Protestants, that ment under the auspices of the hierarch instant Rome has interfered to aggravate he is treated with contempt and contumely, these differences that provoke dissension, whenever his name is mentioned in this in order to produce alienation from and House. Many hon. Members of this House hatred to England. Now, Mr. Whittle, a will remember Mr. Vincent Scully-[An Roman Catholic barrister, has written a hon. MEMBER: We shall never forget him.] pamphlet to which I have adverted on pre--and I ask whether they can remember vious occasions; he is a Roman Catholic anyone more anxious to promote the welof moderate opinions, and he is treated with the utmost contempt by those Ultramontane Roman Catholics. In this pamphlet he complains, exactly as the late Lord Beaumont and the Duke of Norfolk complained, that modern Rome spews moderation out of her mouth. This pamphlet was published only three years ago; it was written by an able barrister, and he says this-that Ultramontanism had but little existence in Ireland previous to 1849, when it was imported by Cardinal Cullen. And why was this course taken ? For this reason, that the conduct of the clergy of the Established Church, and of the other Protestants in Ireland during the famine in Ireland in 1847 and 1848; that the conduct of the Protestant community of England towards the Irish when they were in difficulties and distress; and the conduct of the United Parliament was such; that there was a growing feeling of attraction towards England; and of friendship and gratitude to the English people. At that moment Rome sent this firebrand to Ireland to cause division, and I say upon the authority of an educated and intelligent Roman Catholic barrister, that from his advent there sprung up the feeling in Ireland that is embodied in the demand for the disestablishment of the Irish Church; a demand that he was at first to popularize and force upon his clergy. I might say much more upon this subject, but I know that the hour is growing late. Still I wish to enforce upon the Houseunwilling as some of the Roman Catholic Members may be to hear it-the fact that they are now doubly servants of the hierarchy. [A laugh.] That hon. Member who is now laughing (Mr. Synan) knows, that at no former period were the Roman Catholic Members of this House so servile in their obedience to the hierarchy of Ireland; and I assert it upon the authority of one whom I knew for years as a Member, a Roman Catholic Member, of this House (Mr. Vincent Scully). Mark this, if a man is disobedient to Cardinal Cullen; "One of the most strange results of this 'epis copal policy' has been that, within a few years, the Irish Members have gradually dwindled from forty-six, at which they stood up to 1857, down to thirty, being their present number. In quality they are even more reduced than in quantity, so far as regards public experience and practical knowledge of Irish matters. For trained Irish veterans are substituted raw Roman recruits and Parliamentary tyros, either Protestant or Catholic." Now, this being the state of the representation of Ireland, suddenly the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lancashire comes forward and declares that he is acting upon the opinion of the Irish people, as duly expressed by their nominal representatives-though I have shown that they represent only the opinions of Cardinal Cullen and Dr. Manning-it is impossible to believe that they can ever rest satisfied unless-unless what? Why, not because any pecuniary gain is refused to their own Church; but it is asserted that there shall draw from the Protestant Church of Irebe no increased prospect of peace-that land the support of the State, what will the spirit of anarchy shall not be allayed, be the position of the two Churches? unless this House suddenly vote an Address Remember that the Roman Catholic Church to Her Majesty, expressing a hope that is supported by a State - by the State of she will be induced to violate her Corona- Rome-it has a hierarchy recruited from tion Oath, and relieve Ireland from the Rome, increasing in wealth and influence; offence which Cardinal Cullen feels at the you withdraw from the Protestant Church presence in that portion of her kingdom of Ireland that support and countenance of an Established Church. Were it not of the State, which she has heretofore enso late in the night, I could produce fur-joyed. And yet you say that the Union ther evidence in support of the assertions must be maintained. Why? Why does I have made. I could show, that in former the Cardinal Legate wish to maintain the periods, whenever there was a prospect of Union? In order that, by the increased peace in Ireland, Rome sent agents to this power which would thus be given to him country to break the peace. I could show through the Irish representation, he may that the apprehension of a growing union be able to exercise an increased power over between the English and the Irish people this House. His policy is distinct and clear. on the part of the Papacy is the secret How can you expect, if the Protestant cause of the policy that is now followed Church can with difficulty maintain the by the right hon. Gentleman the Member contest now, that when the support of the for South Lancashire. In all human pro- State is removed she will be more adebability, instead of thus promoting peace quate to contend with her opponent. You in Ireland you will only stimulate to fur- say it is an offence to religion to support ther demands, you will aggravate religious the Protestant Establishment ou political differences; by making these unwise con- grounds. I say that as long as the hier cessions now you will stimulate the hierarchy of the Romish Church is directly archy to make other and still greater demands, which will render it impossible longer to maintain the union between the two countries. Was the late Mr. O'Connell a representative of Irish feeling or not? O'Connell made the same demand that you make now; but then O'Connell was consistent, for he also demanded the absolute repeal of the Union. He held that it was impossible that the British Government should conduct the administration of Ireland on the terms that you propose; and holding that to be an impossibility, being a man of foresight and ability, what did he demand? He demanded the disestablishment of the Church, and at the same time the repeal of the Union. You call attention to what has taken place in Canada and Australia. But O'Connell was wise in feeling that, if Ireland were placed in the position of Canada or Australia, it would be impossible to maintain the Union. I can quite understand Cardinal Cullen's policy. The right hon. Gentleman proposes to disestablish the Church. Why does he at the same time support, why do Cardinal Cullen and Dr. Manning support, the Union? Because the disestablishment of the Protestant Church will strengthen enormously the Papal influence in Ireland; and for this reason-the Catholic Church is organized, is directed in Ireland by a Legate Cardinal from Rome. If you with supported by the Court of Rome in Ire land, it would be an act of folly and of cowardice to withdraw the support of the State of England from the United Church in that part of Her Majesty's dominions. Such an act would be most imprudent, it would be impolitic, and if it were adopted it will be difficult to maintain the Union. Hon. Gentlemen talk as if it were the settled opinion of the people of this coun try that this act of disestablishment would be most statesmanlike. That is not the character that this policy has borne among them for many years past. I know that attempts have been made to beguile Members of this House into favouring this policy; but I also know that the people of this country condemn this proposal as fa vouring the ambitious policy of Rome directed against England. I attended s meeting at Birmingham the other day where 5,000 people were unanimous in their opposition to this policy. I had the honour to present a petition to this House from Birmingham which was signed by 10,000 people; and I was assured that if only a week would have been allowed the 10.000 would have become 40,000 or 50,000. Let us not, the noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire has said, resuscitate the old worn-out cry, "No Popery!" Depend upon it, if you pass this measure that cry will gather strength, |