1144 tion, they would submit to. It was some other lawyer who could pick holes in strange that after more than thirty years' it and show that it was utterly useless. discussion of this question the noble Earl He had no doubt, therefore, that if, in a should have used such an argument. But Select Committee or otherwise, the noble the real question which he (Earl Russell) and learned Lord inserted clauses, the obdesired the friends of the Church to con- jectors to church rates, on the clauses sider was that this controversy had pro- being sent down to the other House, would duced and was still producing ill-will and pick holes in them quite as plausibly as litigation, and that it was not for the in- the noble and learned Lord had done with terest of the Church that such agitation regard to the Bill as it stood. Objection should continue. He believed the ob- had been taken to the expression that the jectors to church rates might be divided parishioners should "agree" as if a into two classes. The first class was com- unanimous decision were thereby required posed of moderate men, who really felt it for a voluntary rate; but it would be easy a hardship and a grievance that, while to clear away such a difficulty by inserting supporting their own places of worship, "a majority of " before "the parishioners." they should be compelled to contribute to He had been pleased to hear the speech of other religious edifices, which they never the right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of entered, and against the doctrines preached Oxford), and agreed with him as to the in which they protested. They were advantages of a voluntary rate as comanxious to get rid of that grievance, and pared with a subscription; for if the pawere, at the same time, willing to agree to rishioners decided on a rate of so much in clauses sanctioning voluntary rates. The the pound, persons would be called upon other class were men who wished to keep for their just proportion, and would feel this question alive for the purposes of morally bound to pay it; whereas, if no agitation; and who thought this the best particular sum was asked each man might question on which they could oppose the subscribe as little as he pleased. A rate Established Church, and they would con- would produce contributions in a much sequently be delighted if their Lordships fairer proportion than would otherwise be rejected the Bill, either by strangling it in the case. The Bill contained three ima Select Committee or by openly refusing portant principles. The first was the abothe second reading. He thought all judi- lition of compulsory payments, which, of cious friends of the Church should be de- course, was the essence of the Bill; and if lighted to get rid of a question in which it it were modified, or struck out, the meacan be more effectually held up to odium sure would virtually be at an end. The than any other. He thought it most un- second principle was that all payments fortunate that the repair of churches was which, though made under the name of thrown centuries ago on a rate to be raised church rates, were, in fact, payments to by the decision of the parishioners. In the incumbent by way of commuted tithe Scotland there was a different arrange- should be continued. If it were thought ment; for when a kirk or manse required necessary to recite the Acts in question, he enlargement or repair the heritors were should have no objection; for gentlemen summoned and contributed their share who received their income in this manner, to make up the required sum. In this were as much entitled to it as other clergycountry the decision by a majority has men were to a rent-charge for commuted given rise to great disputes and ill-will, tithe. The third principle was provision and it appeared to him to be for the in- for a voluntary rate, and the machinery terests of the Church that it should be was a question of detail. It was possible got rid of as soon as possible. The noble that the Bill could be better considered by and learned Lord on the Woolsack had a Select Committee; but he should be complained that he (Earl Russell) had very reluctant to agree to that course, for not explained the clauses of the Bill. It if clauses were introduced in the Bill by was not his Bill, however; he had not a Select Committee in secret, and after a framed it, and he should not undertake to discussion unknown to the public, those expound its clauses. This he knew, how- who represented the objectors to church ever, that his right hon. Friend Mr. rates in the other House would certainly Gladstone had taken very good legal ad- find some hidden meaning in those clauses, vice; and he also knew from repeated in- which they would not do had they been stances that when one lawyer had framed openly debated. Without, therefore, giva plea or proposition, there was always ing any definite opinion on the question, he was disposed to prefer the considera- Committee of the Whole House would protions of the Bill by a Committee of the duce nothing short of a perfect Babel of Whole House. He would, however, think conversation. A Committee could be chosen over the point as carefully as he could, and to amend the Bill upstairs, and it would would inform the noble Earl opposite (the then re-appear before their Lordships in Earl of Malmesbury) what course he would an improved condition. He must press take on the Motion being made to refer the the noble Earl to give an answer on this Bill to a Select Committee. He would fix subject as soon as possible, because it was the Committee for Thursday next, before his intention, on the Motion for going into which day he would inform the noble Earl Committee, to move that the Bill be reof his decision. ferred to a Select Committee. The noble Earl wished to go into Committee on Thursday next. That was quite as short an interval as custom would sanction. But he hoped that by to-morrow evening the noble Earl would consult with his friends and be able to state finally his intentions. Motion agreed to. Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next. House adjourned at a quarter before Nine o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter before Five o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Thursday, April 23, 1868. MINUTES.] SELECT COMMITTEE On Bank Holidays nominated. THE EARL OF MALMESBURY said, he had been much disappointed at the noble Earl not having made the Bill intelligible to the House. The noble Earl had said that it was not his Bill, and it had apparently come into the House without father or mother. Nobody was present to explain it, and it was still consequently, as at five o'clock, when their Lordships met, unintelligible to both sides of the House. The noble Earl had said that he had taken the Bill upon trust from Mr. Gladstone, that Mr. Gladstone had trusted to a lawyer to draw it up, and that it was a case of one lawyer picking holes in the work of another. He certainly thought the noble Earl should have been prepared to make the Bill perfectly intelligible; whereas it was no disrespect to him to say that he did not himself understand the 2nd clause. For his own part he had asked several lawyers and others, but nobody could understand it. A large deputation from Marylebone, moreover, had waited upon him to ask what it meant, they being in the greatest consternation, because, if the meaning were such as they apprehended, it abolished local Acts, in which case five of their clergymen would First at once lose a considerable part of their incomes. The important question before their Lordships was whether the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee or not. Again he must ask the noble Earl, in all courtesy, to make up his mind as to that point. They had had some conversation on the subject before, and he found the noble Earl then not unwilling to allow the Bill to be sent to a Select Committee-in fact, if he had not misunderstood the noble Earl, he said he was willing; but the next day, after consultation with his friends, he revoked that consent, and said he thought it better to have the discussion upon the clauses take place in Committee of the Whole House. He could assure the noble Earl that Her Majesty's Government had no intention whatever of shelving the Bill; but to attempt to alter the Bill in WAYS AND MEANS-considered in Committee. Reading-Government of India Act Amend ment [91]; Governor General of India * [92]; Petroleum Act Amendment [93]. Second Reading-Marriages (Frampton Mansel)* [79]; Broughty Ferry Provisional Order Confirmation [90]; United Parishes (Scotland)* [81]. Committee-Ecclesiastical Commissioners Orders in Council [69]. Report-Ecclesiastical Commissioners Orders in Council [69]. Considered as amended-Legitimacy Declaration (Ireland) [87]. Third Reading-Metropolis Subways* [41], and passed. MIDDLESEX REGISTRY OFFICE. QUESTION. MR. CHILDERS said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, What course the Government intend to take as to the reform of the Middlesex Registry Office, and whether il legal fees have been received there since the date of Mr. Greenwood's Report? MR. GATHORNE HARDY said, in reply, that an official inquiry had been made by Mr. Greenwood into the circumstances of the Middlesex Registry Office, which had been laid on the table of the House. The House was aware that the Landed Estates Court had not answered the expectations formed of it, and the Lord Chancellor had issued a Commission on that Court, and he had thought it right to add to the inquiry the subject of the Middlesex Registry, thinking the two subjects to be kindred. He had received a note from the Registrar that day stating that illegal fees were not received at the Office. In answer to MR. HADFIELD, MR. GATHORNE HARDY said, that the inquiry would not extend to the Yorkshire Registry Office. COLONEL SYKES said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether, in view of the expected modifications in the Treaty of Tien-tsin this year, an opportunity will be afforded to Members of the House to consider any changes before they are finally adopted? LORD STANLEY said, in reply, that there was no absolute necessity for modifying the Treaty this year; and he could only state in reply to the hon. and gallant Gentleman, that he had no power to depart from the constitutional practice under which Treaties were made upon the re sponsibility of the Executive Government. He was in communication with various Chambers of Commerce, and undoubtedly any observations which any hon. Member might have to make on the subject would meet with due attention. In answer to MR. LAYARD, the noble Lord said the Treaty would not be renewed without some modification. INDIA-HYDERABAD.-QUESTION. MR. STACPOOLE said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, Why the Political Section of the Administration Report for 1862, made by Colonel Davidson, resident at Hyderabad, for which an Address was ordered on the 20th August, 1867, has not been included in the Papers laid before Parliament? SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE said, in reply, that there was no Political Section in the Administration Report of 1861-2; and though there was such a Section in the Administration Report of 1862-3, it had no bearing upon the Returns laid before Parliament. ABYSSINIAN EXPEDITION.-QUESTION. the Secretary of State for India, Whether MR. FAWCETT said, he would beg to ask the Estimates he has received from Bombay of the sums expended on behalf of the Abyssinian Expedition are sufficiently full and accurate to enable the Government correctly to calculate its aggregate cost up to the present time? SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE replied that the accounts received from Bombay were, he regretted to say, neither so full nor so accurate as he could have wished. They had, however, been placed in the hands of a gentleman of great experience in connection with military expeditions, and he had been engaged in making an Estimate which might be relied upon as much as any Estimate of the kind could be. PARLIAMENT THE CONFERENCE ROOM.-QUESTION. COLONEL FRENCH said, he wished to ask the First Commissioner of Works, On how many occasions the present Conference Room has been used for a Conference? LORD JOHN MANNERS said, in reply, that, in point of fact, the Room referred to by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman had not for some time been used for the purposes of a Conference. It had been TURKEY-CONDITION OF CRETE. QUESTION. and was still used as a Committee-room | last. From the statement then made the for the House of Lords. Committee will, I think, be prepared to hear that the elasticity of the Revenue during the past year has not equalled that which we had the good fortune to hear of in connection with the years immediately preceding. But, considering all the cir cumstances of the case-considering we have been suffering from two bad harvests Ma-considering that we have not yet recovered the financial depression of 1866 and the beginning of 1867-I think we have reason on the whole to congratulate ourselves on the financial condition of the country. MR. LAYARD said, he would to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether the Report of his Highness Ali Pasha upon the condition of the Island of Crete has been communicated to Her jesty's Government; and, if so, whether he has any objection to lay it upon the Table of the House? LORD STANLEY, in reply, said, he had received the Report alluded to by the hon. Member, and he proposed including it in the next collection of printed Papers on the subject. IMPORTATION OF FOREIGN CATTLE. OBSERVATIONS. I propose, Sir, in the first place, to compare the Revenue, as estimated by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Disraeli) at the commencement of last year, with the actual receipts; and then, in the next place, to compare the Revenue of the year 1867-8 with that of the year 1866-7. The original Estimate of Revenue given by my right hon. Friend on the 4th of April, 1867, was £69,130,000. When the supplementary Financial Statement was made LORD ROBERT MONTAGU said, he would appeal to the hon. Member for Liverpool not to bring on a Motion which stood in his name on the Paper for tomorrow, on the ground that the subject-in matter of that Motion was now under inquiry by a Committee of the House. The counsel for the Southampton Dock Company had urged upon the attention of the Committee the very point which the hon. Member proposed to bring forward. It was therefore very inconvenient to ask the House to debate the question before the evidence was taken or reported, and which had, by a decision of the House itself, been referred to the investigation of a Committee. MR. HORSFALL said, he regretted that he could not comply with the request made by the noble Lord. The restrictions which had been imposed entailed a serious loss upon the importers, butchers, and consumers of meat, and he therefore felt bound to press his Motion. WAYS AND MEANS. THE FINANCIAL STATEMENT. WAYS AND MEANS considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, the interest with which the Financial Statement is generally received -so far, at least, as regards the retrospect of the past year-is, on this occasion, somewhat lessened by the fact that a partial review of the financial position of the country was given to the House in November November last there was added to that original Estimate, on account of additional Income Tax, a sum of £840,000; which makes a total of £69,970,000. Of that Estimate there has been realized in round numbers £69,600,000 only, or £370,000 less than the amount estimated. Now, I have no doubt it will be interesting to the Committee to be informed under what sources of Revenue there was a failure, and on what an excess, of the Estimate. Those sources of Revenue which exceeded the Estimate in fruitfulness are Customs by £650,000; Stamps by £201,000; Taxes by £9,000; and Crown Lands by £5,000. Those heads which have yielded something short of the Estimate are Excise by £538,000; Income Tax by £663,000; Post Office by £20,000; Miscellaneous by £14,000. Thus those sources of Revenue which have exceeded the Estimate have done so to the extent of £865,000, and the deficits of those which have fallen short of the Estimate make a total of £1,235,000. Deducting the total of increases from the total of decreases we have £370,000 as the sum by which our actual receipts have fallen short of the Estimate. I will now compare the total Revenue of 1867-8 with that of the previous year. In 1866-7 the total Revenue was £69,434,568; in 1867-8 it was £69,600,219; showing an increase of £165,651. But with reference to this it must be remembered that in 1866-7 some extraordinary sources of Revenue came to the aid of the Exchequer-the China indemnity gave us £250,000, and the New Zealand Bonds £500,000, making £750,000 of extraordinary Revenue, which, of course, was not repeated in the past year; so that to make a just comparison between the two years we must deduct this £750,000 from the Revenue of 1866-7, and having by this means brought the total down to £68,684,568, we may compare it with £69,600,219, the Revenue of 1867-8, and show that the real difference in the yield of the two years amounts to £915,651 in favour of 1867-8. Then it will, no doubt, be said that during the past year we had an additional Income Tax imposed. In the month of November it was my duty to propose an additional tax of 1d. on the year, or, as it was put by the right hon. Member for South Lancashire, of 2d. on the last half of the year. The House agreed to the proposal, and it was estimated that the additional tax would yield £840,000. This, however, was the first time that an addition to the Income Tax had been made at that period of the year, and the novelty of the proceeding prevented the whole circumstances of the case affecting the difficulty of collecting that addition within the financial year being taken into consideration. The result has been that we have failed to get into the Exchequer within the half-year half the amount we anticipated. The additional 1d. has brought us as yet only £377,000. It must also be remembered that last year a reduction of the marine insurance duty took effect, which caused a loss to the Revenue of £270,000; therefore, setting off the loss from the reduction of the marine insurance duty against the gain by the additional Income Tax, we have only as yet a real gain to the Revenue of £107,000. And if we deduct this £107,000 from the £915,651, which represents the increase in the yield of 1867-8 over 1866-7, we get £808,651 as the real expansion of the Revenue during the year 1867-8. I therefore think that, under all the circumstances, we may congratulate ourselves on the result. Notwithstanding the adverse circumstances to which I have alluded, we find that, although the Revenue has not expanded to the amount we have been accustomed to of late years, it has not altogether lost its elasticity, but shows a substantial advance. Now, Sir, I have already stated the total amount of Revenue for 1867-8; but perhaps the Committee would like to know the amounts derived from each source, and the increase or decrease of each in 1867-8 as compared with 1866-7. The Customs, then, produced £22,650,000, an increase of £347,000 on the previous year; the Excise, £20,162,000, a decrease of £508,000, Stamps, £9,541,000, an increase of £121,000; Taxes, £3,509,000, an increase of £41,000; Property and Income Tax ; £6,177,000, an increase of £477,000; the Post Office, £4,630,000, an increase of £160,000; Crown Lands, £345,000, an increase of £15,000; Miscellaneous, £2,586,219, an increase of £262,835; and there was the absence of anything to correspond with the China indemnity and New Zealand Bonds. It may be interesting to the Committee to have some further details regarding these sources of Revenue. Taking the Customs, I find that corn showed an increase of £71,000; dried fruits of £4,000; spirits, £126,000; tea, £168,000; tobacco and snuff, £87,000; and wine, £78,000. There were decreases in coffee to the amount of £7,000, and in sugar and molasses of £65,000. The totals showed an increase of £462,000 on the Customs receipts. But this does not appear on the sheet, because this sum is decreased partly by a reduction of casual receipts and partly by outstanding balances to £347,000. As regards Excise, I may mention an increase on licences of £371,000; on railways of £18,000; and on sugar used by brewers of £32,000; a decrease on malt of £538,000, on spirits of £240,000, on stage and hackney carriages of £40,000, and on chicory of £3,000. But it is remarkable that while spirits showed a total decrease of £240,000, there is in Ireland an actual increase of £150,000. I think this should be a subject of congratulation. [Laughter.] An hon. Member seems to treat that observation with ridicule; but an increase of revenue from Excise has always been deemed matter of congratulation, because, being an evidence of the consuming power of the country, it shows prosperity among the lower orders; and the figures I have stated may by that rule reasonably be taken as evidence of Ireland's material prosperity during the past year, notwithstanding Parliament has been obliged to pass special measures for the safety of the country. Therefore the total decrease for the year under the head of Excise is £400,000; |