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men in the country or at the coast. This would "offer again not only health and mental improvement, "but some of the advantages to skilled labour afforded "by the German system of travel amongst artificers." 186. (Mr. Pell.) I suppose you have given this question of the uses to which the funds of charities should be applied a great deal of consideration ?—I have endeavoured to do so.

187. Have any other schemes presented themselves to your mind except the one which I have got here in print? I am not at this moment prepared to say. Many suggestions cross my mind at different times, but I am not now prepared to go into them.

188. The result of a life's consideration is this which you have presented to us. Would you admit this much, that it is extremely difficult to apply any charitable funds without doing mischief?-Certainly. 189. And you think this is the least mischievous ?— I am not dealing with charitable funds at all thereI deal with co-operative funds.

190. I thought the principle of a charity was embodied in your scheme; you are to find better dwelling-houses or means by which houses could be acquired, and leisure ensured for the workmen, which could only be done by the use of corporate funds?— By themselves becoming the owners of the fee, and by allowing the members of their body to take an interest to be carved out of it, either a life-interest or for short terms, not making a profit for the Company, but securing the Company from loss.

191. You concede this, that your scheme is in the nature of assistance to different workmen ?—Yes, when people help one another, it is always in the

nature of assistance.

192. You admit that at present they have the means of helping each other; that there is a constant intercommunication going on between the workmen of the different trades, and that there are newspapers started, Mr. Alsager Hill's for instance, by which people can ascertain where workmen are required ?-Yes, I wish if possible to make the workmen feel that they have an interest in these great Companies, an interest which may make them friends of law and order, rather than feeling that the legislature regard them as persons having no interest in the country at all.

193. A sort of parental attention ?-Brotherly attention.

194. (Mr. Walter Jumes.) Have you ever thought what you would do under your scheme with the municipal franchise, or the parliamentary franchise, which is possessed by the Guilds ?-What I have suggested in another place, as to the constitutional municipality of London, is that if you have a municipality for London, as has been suggested, with 240 members of the council, 40 of them should be chosen by the proprietors; and I would give to all these Companies, who are great proprietors, the amount of influence which their property would give them, which would be very considerable.

195. Then you would not altogether favour the connexion between the Companies and the Corporation, of which the Companies at the present time form an integral part?—No, I should not favour it; I should recommend no greater connexion than that of any other citizen of London.

196. You are aware that there have been for the last 30 years two Commissions which have very closely investigated all the affairs of the colleges of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge?-Yes.

197. And we have had it stated before us that the funds of the Companies are equal to the collective. funds of both the Universities, and also the colleges? -It is so stated.

198. Can you imagine any reason, if there have been two inquiries into bodies like the Universities

and colleges, why a public investigation should not Mr. T. Hare. be entered into of the affairs of the Companies ?— Certainly not; it seems to me that you are dealing 15 March 1882. with public property, which is distinct from private property.

199. You recollect all the investigations which have taken place, commencing so far back even as the year 1818, under Lord Brougham; there was great reluctance, was there not, during the progress of all these inquiries into the charities in the country, to give evidence?-I do not know that I have had an opportunity of communicating with any person as to what took place so long ago; there was an inquiry in the latter part of the last century, when returns were published.

200. But Lord Brougham's Commission acted under statutory powers?—Yes.

201. There was great reluctance, was there not, on the part of all the trustees, to give evidence ?-Probably there might have been; they never would have obtained the information without statutory powers.

202. Your opinion is they would never have obtained the information withont statutory powers?—Yes.

203. Why do you think statutory powers in that case were of such value in compelling the Companies to give information, because statutory powers cannot compel persons to speak?-No, but if the question was not answered with reference to a trust, it would be contempt of the Court of Chancery, for which they might be committed.

204. There has been great opposition, at different times, ever since the year 1853, since the establishment of the Charity Commission, to any extension of the law of charitable trusts; that is so, is it not ?-Several attempts have been made, but they have all failed. A bill was brought in by the present Commissioners. last year, which did not pass. Great difficulty has always existed in getting any additional powers.

205. Did not the great opposition to any amendment of the law of charitable trusts or any interference with charitable bodies, and funds held by trustees for charitable purposes, arise about the year 1863, at which time, I believe, Mr. Gladstone proposed to impose taxation upon the charities, and other proposals of that kind were made ?-Yes, to get rid of the exemption; there is at present an exemption.

206. I do not want to go into that, but there was great opposition at that time; and I ask, has not the same opposition reappeared every time that any proposal has been made for altering the law with regard to charitable trusts?-I do not think that many attempts have been made in the legislature to alter the law of charitable trusts.

207. An attempt was made in 1873, by Mr. Wina bill with terbotham; did he not introduce Mr. Forster? That was a bill giving certain powers to the Charity Commissioners.

208. If you had those powers which it was proposed to give you under the Act of last year and by that bill, do you not think there would be means of dealing with charities connected with the Companies, by which you would be prepared to put forward schemes for dealing with them with great public advantage?—I daresay there would be.

209. Why is it that the Companies themselves do not propose to put forward schemes and put forward proposals?—I apprehend that no public body likes to diminish its own power; and having now power to act according to their own discretion, they would see no necessity themselves, being satisfied with the way in which they administered their funds, for abrogating the powers and placing themselves under another rule.

210. If it was for the interest of the public, do you think that they would diminish their own powers?— In many cases no doubt they would do so; in distributing pensions or benefits of that kind, which is a mere matter of favour; if it were done with a full regard to deserts of every kind, I daresay their powers would be diminished.

Mr. T. Hare.

211. Their powers would be diminished; it would diminish their power of conferring personal favours, 15 March 1882. and to a certain extent also political favours ?-I suppose so.

212. But, looking at it from a public point of view, do you think that the benefit which they would confer upon the public, in their capacity of distributing public favours, would be diminished ?-It is difficult to say. The question is so general that I feel a difficulty in answering it.

213. In the report which was published two years ago by the Commission appointed to inquire into the City parochial charities, there is this passage: it says, "Many parishes receive small payments from divers "of the City Companies, the origin of some of which " is unknown or very obscure. It would be desirable "that this matter should form the subject of inquiry "in the event of the appointment of any Commission "hereafter to be entrusted with the task of dealing "with the City charities." Are you acquainted with that passage?—I do not know where it is found.

214. It is from the Report of the Committee appointed to inquire into the City Parochial Charities? -I know that there are many small sums which have been left by men who lived in a particular City parish.

215. I can give you any number of them; your reports which you publish are full of them ?-Yes.

216. Why is it that the Charity Commissioners have not attempted, under their present powers, to deal with any of those charities ?-They have not power to initiate any proceedings unless an application be made to them by some of the inhabitants of the parish interested, or by a majority of the trustees administering the fund.

217. You can do so in any case, can you not, if it is under 501.?-If it is under 50l. it must be an application from the inhabitants; if it is more than 50l., then it must be an application from a majority of the

trustees.

218. Cannot anybody put the Charity Commission in motion if it is under 50l. ?—No, only a motion to inquire; they can tell them that it is being very badly managed, and there must be inquiry into it.

219. I will give an illustration at random. Here is the charity of Lynn John Bradbury, who left a property to the Mercers' Company-this is the parish of St. Stephen's, Coleman Street: the Mercers' Company pay 388. a year in respect of this charity, and the value of 2s. 6d. in coals to the occupiers of certain almshouses; you have no power to deal with a small charity of that kind ?-None, unless an application from the persons interested be made.

220. These reports are absolutely full of such cases -you find them almost on every page; do you think it desirable there should be an extension of the law of charitable trusts, to give you power to deal with such a case ?-Certainly.

221. (Mr. Burt.) I understand you to make a distinction in your suggestions between the producers and the distributors; you said that you would confine the producers to London ?-I would confine the distributors to London.

222. And the producers you would extend to the provinces; why do you make the distinction ?— Because the work of production, since the establishment of the Companies, has been spread so much more beyond the Capital, to all parts of England; whereas the work of distribution is applicable to London and the suburbs alone. The business of manufacture has spread through all parts of England; and therefore I think it would be desirable to connect the whole of the associated trades together, inviting,and I think we might well expect our invitation would be accepted, the other great centres to become affiliated societies, having the same object in view. There is now an opportunity of commencing a great co-operative movement; an opportunity which has never occurred before.

223. You have expressed your opinion that the property of Companies is public property, and that

applies of course to trust and to corporate property? Certainly.

224. Your object is to utilise it as much as possible, especially in the direction in which the Companies were originally established ?-Exactly; that is my object.

225. Do you know how much of the expenditure of the Companies is for entertainments ?—I see some large sums are stated in the papers which have been lately brought before me, but I have not had an opportunity of verifying the sums; they are probably very large.

226. If we were to assume that it is above 100,0001, a year, would you consider that a proper expenditure? -I should hope that there would be a better mode of expenditure devised; which would be the case in the system which I propose.

227. (Mr. Firth.) I should like to ask you how a scheme like yours would work out in the case of such a Company as the Vintners' ?—I am not at the moment especially aware of the condition of the Vintners' Company.

228. It is one of the twelve Companies; I ask you how would it work out with such a Company as the Vintners' ?-It might probably not be adapted to them in all its forms.

229. I should think probably that that would be so; could it be extended so far as the Vintners' ?-It might in some of its forms; as regards instruction, I suppose there must be some special qualification, even for that business, and they ought to know something of the articles in which they deal. There might be part

of a scheme of technical education for the children of persons connected with them, and for assisting persons in visiting foreign countries and making themselves thoroughly acquainted with all the subjects which form part of their commerce; there is something even that the Vintners may have to learn.

230. Supposing that it were applicable to the case of the Vintners, would you include in the benefits of your scheme the whole wine trade of this country?— I suppose, with regard to the Vintners it would be especially matter for the distinction which I have taken, of producers and distributors. I suppose no article which the Vintners' body need would be produced in London, and perhaps not much in the other parts of England; therefore I think it might be only necessary to connect the Company of Vintners in London and the suburbs, the original area of the Society.

231. Supposing I give you the Grocers' Company as an instance; would you allow people following that business all through England to have the benefit of this scheme?—I think that there should be associations throughout England, if it could be extended so that there would be each member contributing at least as much as the cost which his association with the Company would impose upon him, contributing annually a fee of entrance; and that union may be a matter of great value to that very large body coming under the head of grocers.

232. In technical education it might be so, but I am speaking with reference to workmen's dwellings? -That is a special matter; I should think it would not apply to that, because the grocery trade is not anywhere congregated like large manufactories. I speak of those trades where there is a great organisation of workmen in a particular spot.

233. Have you considered that the scheme might result, in some cases, in removing the benefits altogether from London; such a trade as the salters', for example? -Yes.

234. In the case of the salters, all the money would go into Cheshire ?-It might do so. It would be a benefit to the body contemplated; it would be of very little difference to anyone in London if removed from London.

235. Do I understand that you would not preserve in any form the present governing framework, so to speak, the master, wardens, and so on ?-I think there would be no difficulty in preserving the present framework, by admitting a method of election and

bears its name; do you mean that to apply to the whole of the artisans of the United Kingdom ?-So far as production is concerned.

261. For example, you would bring in the carpenters ?-Yes.

262. Can you give any idea how many thousands of carpenters that would introduce into the Carpenters' Company ?-A great number, I daresay; but it would also afford to them much information they could not now obtain, and the fee which they would pay would meet the expense.

263. Do not you think that your scheme for the United Kingdom is a very ambitious one, and totally out of the power of any one Guild to perform and carry out? You could only do it tentatively. You could carry it out first to a certain extent, but by making it open to all it would not necessarily follow that all would join; all those who desire to do so should be permitted.

264. You would give them full power of joining? -Yes, on the payment of an admission fee.

265. But you said you would do away with the livery and Guilds, and let them only be freemen; have you any reason for suggesting that?-No, the only reason is that I do not see any use in it; I see no objection to it, but I see no use in it.

266. The Guilds, in consequence of the absence of craftsmen belonging to them, have been used for the last two or three centuries in the light of a middleclass club, have they not, for the master, wardens, and liverymen, and freemen who belong to it?-Yes, to which club I wish to associate their workmen.

267. And to associate them with it upon application; but they are in the nature of clubs, are they not?-I

presume so.

268. And as much entitled to immunity as any club at the West End ?-The clubs at the West End are subscription clubs, without property.

269. (Sir Nathaniel M. De Rothschild.) You say you have no power to control the charities or the way in which the charities are dispensed by the different Companies ?-None at all.

270. But you have the power of observation ?— Yes.

271. Having the power of observation, do you think as a rule that the Companies, as trustees, have behaved honestly, or behaved dishonestly?-I am not able to place my hand on any act of dishonesty that I know of. I believe they have acted honestly, to the best of their judgment.

272. Whenever there have been any cases, you have taken notice of them?—Yes.

273. You took notice of it in the case of the Mercers' Company once ?-I am not aware of the case.

274. You brought an action against them which you won, when you said that they had not applied all the funds to a certain school ?-That was not the Mercers' Company; there were two cases, one the Merchant Taylors' Company and the other the Wax Chandlers'.

275. You have power of observation; so that if there were any gross violation of trust, you would know it, though you have no power of management? -Yes.

276. (Viscount Sherbrooke.) Supposing the plan think you propose were carried out, what good do you it would do?-In the first place, I think it would give a vast number of workmen throughout the country a feeling that they are cared for; it would give them an amount of information which they at present are unable to obtain; it would afford them advice with reference to the education of their children; and it might afford them in a great centre of population the opportunity of obtaining by their own means a home in which they could live in comfort, without being exposed to the surroundings which are now of a demoralising character; and by all this, and a variety of other consequences that would flow from the same condition of things, make a vast number of persons interested in order being preserved in the country, interested in the security of property,

and interested in the vital preservations of our insti tutions.

277. What do you think would be the relations between such a body as you have described-this subsidised and petted body-and the rest of the community that have no such advantages; have you considered what effects it would have ?-I do not think that the rest of the community having none of those advantages would be the worse for it. I think it would encourage the rest of the country not having those advantages to do much in imitation in endeavouring to secure the same benefits with those who had the advantage; for instance, if a man brought up a family living in his own house, he would be an example to his neighbours, and be much more beneficial to them than a drunken family; and by everything by which you encourage morality, and encourage exertion, and encourage industry and culture, and by every step of that kind, he would be doing good to all those surrounding him.

278. Is not your plan really that you would have a privileged class of these working people, some of whom would have benefits which are denied to the rest of the community ?-There would be no privileged class; it would be a case of no more privilege than persons who subscribe to a club are privileged.

279. Do you mean that everybody who likes may subscribe to it ?-Everybody who likes cannot now subscribe to a club.

280. That is not what I ask; is it your intention that everybody should be able to subscribe to this club?-Everybody connected with the trades— particular trades, should be enabled to subscribe. 281. With these particular trades ?—With these

282. And do you command money sufficient to give those advantages to the persons who do subscribe, or is there any probability that you would command it? Yes; I think the advantages I give in the first place are the information and guidance with reference to the manner in which a family is brought up; guidance and instruction where their business is prosecuted, where they can do it at the most advantage; and in a great many cases assistance, not in the way of charity, because they pay as much as it costs the Company.

283. But other people who are not so fortunate pay a good deal more than the cost?-Others may join the corporation, if they think proper.

284. Is it not quite evident that the plan you suggest could not universally be carried out throughout the whole of the country?—I think universally it could not be carried out; but it could be carried out amongst a vast number of the working classes.

285. Would not it really necessarily come to be a sort of petted trades union, established by the Government ?-I think it would be so far a benefit that it would be a visible diffusion of benefits, which every other class, by uniting in the same manner, might gain for themselves.

286. I thought you told me you did not think it could extend to all classes?The privileges of the Companies could not be extended to all classes, but this mode of operation being set on foot by the Companies, the same mode of organisation might be established by other persons not having the advantages of these Companies.

287. Is it your experience that combination among the working classes produces good either to the working classes themselves or to the rest of the community?-There are a variety of combinations; there are combinations for good and combinations for evil. Combinations which interfere with industry and other things may be evil; but I observed in one of the periodicals of this month a society for taking care of servant girls, finding them homes when they were out of work, and finding them employment; and it is found to be so beneficial that 3,000 or 4,000 girls have joined the society who might have been wandering about the streets, without the means of getting a situation, who are assisted by the society. That is a

mode of co-operation which is beneficial, and might be extended to every other person.

288. That is rather a question of chastity and morals than trade and labour, is it not?-No; chastity and morals may be much promoted by it, no doubt, but what is particularly promoted is that these persons can find employment, and good masters and mistresses are found for them, and arrangements are made by which, when they leave one home, they can find another; no doubt chastity and morals in reference to dwellings are promoted by such a scheme as mine, instead of the system of living in lodgings in which a woman may find in the next room a person of bad character.

289. Is it not quite evident that a system of this kind, carried on on a small scale, for it is evident that it cannot go through the whole country,-would really be only spending a great deal of money to form a trades union ?-So far from that being the case, my opinion is, that it would be copied by other societies; the benefit would be so obvious that, though it could not cover the whole country, yet other associations would be framed, in imitation of this, which would be capable of extending its benefits very largely.

290. Is it your opinion then that the desirable state for the working classes of this country is that they should be all in a state more or less of dependence upon somebody that takes them in hand, instead of being free to act exactly as they please?-On the contrary, I think that nothing is so desirable as that they should be in a free state, and not in a state of dependence; a state of dependence would not be created by co-operation.

291. Is it not a state of dependence when you provide people with lodgings, and all the different things you have spoken of that are to be done for

these people who are happy enough to get into privi- Mr. T. Hare. leged bodies?—Not if they pay the full value of what they receive.

292. There is an ambiguity there; you say they pay what the thing costs, but the people pay a good deal more than it costs who have not got these advantages? That is the benefit I want to give to the working classes of the country.

293. To the whole of the working classes of the country? As many as we can reach.

294. The effect of it would be that you would establish a privileged class, which would have great benefits, while other classes would not?-No; I establish a class, some of whom would have a benefit which they are entitled to, and which their own care and prudence will entitle them to, and their good example will in all probability influence a vast number as well.

295. Is it your experience that people who have to work hard for their living thrive more in proportion as the work is made light and easy to them than people who have to work harder?-Čertainly not.

296. Is not that the effect of what you are doing? -I fancy not.

297. Is it not merely setting up a trades union ?-I think it is not setting up a trades union, except that any association combined together for trade must be technically called a union; but not a union in any of its evil senses.

298. What reason have we to suppose that it would not be in its evil sense; has it not always been found that when the working classes unite together, it almost invariably ends in limiting the hours of work, and in the compiling of different rules that are made for the purpose of making the work easy and light for them ?—I am not aware that it is so.

15 March 1882.

My suggestion for the reform of the present administration of the Companies is, that their connexion with the arts, crafts, and trades which, according to the terms of their constitution they are designed to comprehend, shall be restored, including within the latter all the analogous trades and industries which have grown out of, or been developed from, or into which the arts and crafts originally named, have since expanded. The avocations included in the business of mercers, drapers, haberdashers, and clothworkers, would embrace vast numbers of the working classes, to whom an intimate association with bodies of the wealth and importance that these guilds have attained, may be made a source of great advantage. The members to be admitted may be of two main classes, those employed in the manufacture and those in the distribution of the several productions. The factories for production are now widely spread throughout the kingdom, and not persons engaged in them, wherever situated, should be excluded. The distributive workers, as keepers of shops and those employed therein, might be confined, as the companies now generally are, to London and the suburbs.

It is impossible not to see that the increase of population and the progress of wealth in modern times, followed up by the amazing changes introduced by machinery, and the boundless power of steam, has altered the old conditions and relations which existed between capital and labour, and has vastly widened the separation, and has, in many cases, produced what may be called an estrangement between the employer and the workman. Nothing is more important than to seize and make the utmost of every opportunity of creating a common feeling of interest, that the labouring classes may clearly perceive that their welfare is bound up with that of their neighbours, and of society in general.

Efforts are being made by many with this view to give to the agricultural labourer an interest in his cottage and garden and allotment, or to enable him to acquire some proprietary right; and to extend to the working people of the towns the advantages which their association with these companies might confer, would, in like manner, be calculated to win and secure their adherence to the side of law and order.

The admission of the member to the company might be on a certificate of age, of his actual employment or trade, and whether obtained and taught by apprenticeship, or other instruction.

A small admission fee, not exceeding say 58., may be required, and an annual payment of a shilling or two, for preserving the connexion. The wardens and members composing the courts of the companies would be properly elected by the members at large. There would be no reason why the present members of the court should not be continued for their lives an additional number of newly elected members being added.

The identification of the companies with their trades, and the association of them with the working classes, may be beneficial to the latter in more ways than can, at present, be imagined. The names of the children of a member might be entered in the register of his company, stating the public, elementary, or other schools at which they are educated. They may be admitted on favourable conditions as scholars, and be encouraged to compete in prizes and exhibitions in the technical colleges. To these colleges may be added travelling fellowships whereby other countries may be visited, and their methods and appliances in the various arts and manufactures ascertained and compared with our own, and economical and artistic progress thus promoted. The officers of every company would be supplied with constant statistical information of the greater