783 So. Mr. Layard and the {COMMONS} late Captain Christie. Captain Christie was seventy years old, and that he was decrepit. ["No, no!"] He did not use that word, but I think he implied that from his age he was incapable of discharging his duties. Judging the man from his appearance, he said, "I think that man is unfit to perform the heavy duties of his office." This is the sum total of the statement of the hon. Member for Aylesbury. It is then said that he received letters which he did not answer. The hou. Member for Aylesbury says that he is wholly ignorant of a letter from the sister of Captain Christie. ["No, no!"] The hon. Member tells me He received a letter from the brother of Captain Christie, but he says that he considered the opening statement in that letter so disparaging that, seeing it in print, he did not think that it called for any answer. To the letter of Captain Christie he says that he did send an answer. All that he was called upon to retract was, that he made a statement of the age of Captain Christie which was incorrect. It is surely not for the House to visit the hon. Member with the sort of displeasure which it has manifested. That displeasure would not be more severe if the hon. Member had done something which called for censure as a dishonourable act. ["No, no!"] Hon. Gentlemen may dissent from me in this matter, but if a statement respecting age is considered a dishonourable act, it certainly does not meet my view of a dishonourable act. I think Captain Christie was deeply wounded by that which has occurred, but for that which has occurred I hold the right hon. Baronet the Member for Carlisle responsible, and not the hon. Member for Aylesbury. The fact of his having been superseded and called to a court-martial struck deeply into the heart of Captain Christie, and for those acts I hold the right hon. Baronet the Member for Carlisle responsible. There is one other subject which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned, and I think it my duty to make this statement on behalf of the hon. Member for Aylesbury. The right hon. Gentleman said he was unwilling to subject Captain Christie to the ordeal which the hon. Member for Aylesbury desired. Now, there have been noble Lords and others examined before the Committee with whom the hon. Member for Aylesbury has been brought into contact-I will use that mode of expression and the hon. Member for Aylesbury has carefully abstained from putting a ques 784 tion to them. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman opposite will bear me out in this statement. [Sir J. PAKINGTON: Hear, hear!] On this account I think the right hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Graham) need not have been afraid of submitting Captain Christie to that ordeal of the Committee. The right hon. Gentleman has himself passed through that ordeal, and I do not think he has suffered much from it. ADMIRAL BERKELEY said, he hoped the House would allow him to do justice, in a few words, to the memory of a gallant officer. The hon. Member for Aylesbury, as a Member of Parliament, claimed to be a judge of the qualifications of naval officers to command in responsible situations such as that which Captain Christie had filled. Ile (Admiral Berkeley) had, not only in common with that hon. Member, the character of a Member of Parliament, and an Englishman, but he had also the character of a man who had served his country in the naval profession for a great number of years, and might be allowed, therefore, to be as good a judge of the qualifications of naval officers as the hon. Member for Aylesbury. The right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) had taken the responsibility of the appointment of Captain Christie on himself as he presided over the Board he could have put his veto on the appointment, or not-but the right hon. Baronet had appealed to every member of the Board before appointing Captain Christie, and had reminded them in the strongest terms of the station to which they were about to appoint that officer, and said that they would be answerable if they received for it an unfit person; and he (Admiral Berkeley) was willing to share any responsibility which might attach to the Board of Admiralty for the appointment of Captain Christie. There was no man more anxious or more desirous of the court-martial than was Captain Christie himself. Then let it not be said that in a case where blame was cast upon an officer that the right hon. Baronet, in following the rules of the service, was in any sort of way the cause of the death of Captain Christie, but rather let those who had maligned him behind his back look upon themselves as the cause. The question before the House was, why did not the hon. Member for Aylesbury, when called upon by the touching letter from the sister of Captain Christie, do that which every hon. Member would have done-sent an immediate answer and relieved her mind. He could only say, that with regard to all naval appointments, the greatest care had been taken by the Board of Admiralty that none but efficient officers should be sent out, and he was sure that if any man, not prejudiced or determined to condemn, had looked at Captain Christie, that he would have rather thought him to be forty-five than seventy years of age. vice of Russia. It was important that a decision should at once be arrived at with regard to the footing upon which these Poles were to be placed. would rest with the Turkish Government to determine how and where they were to be employed. Subject dropped. VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, in reply to the hon. Gentleman, that the state of the question was this—a certain number of Polish and Russian prisoners had been taken in the course of the war. The Polish prisoners expressed a strong desire. MR. OTWAY said, that during the de- to join a legion of Poles that was being bate two facts had come out, the first was, formed under a Polish commander named that the hon. Member for Aylesbury had Czartoryski, to act in the Turkish service. never made a charge of any kind against They were sent out at the expense of the Captain Christie; and the second was, British Government, and were at the same that when the hon. Member had, as had furnished with arms. They were to be been said, spoken of that officer in a de- enrolled in the Turkish service as a corps preciating tone, the First Lord of the Ad- called by a name which certainly did not miralty, who believed him competent, had convey the idea of any distinct nationality. never had the proper feeling on that occa- Their banner was to be the Cross and sion to defend that officer. So far from the Crescent, to mark the combination of doing this, he took credit to himself, as the arms of the two countries. With those did also the right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Polish prisoners there also went out a Graham), that they were about to super- certain number of Polish emigrants from sede Captain Christie and to subject him this country, who were desirous to enter to the ordeal of a court-martial. He re- into the same service. Every man went gretted that on a former occasion the hon. of his own accord; and, as they would all Member for Aylesbury, relying no doubt be engaged in the Turkish service, it on information received on military authority, had fallen into some inaccuracies; and, had he been aware of what the hon. Member was about to have stated on that occasion, he could have told him that in the case of one of those officers the rules of the service had been complied with. He hoped his hon. Friend would not be deterred from the course he was pursuing in exposing the monstrous abuses of our military system by sneers and clamour, for he might be assured that if he persisted in it he would be supported by the country. Having had a notice upon the paper for two successive weeks, he would take this opportunity of calling the attention of the First Lord of the Treasury to the subject to which it referred-it was, indeed, principally for this purpose that he had risen. A short time since 300 or 400 Poles had sailed in our transports from one of our harbours, armed and equipped for service against Russia. He wished to know whether those Poles were to be incorporated in the Foreign Legion now being raised in Turkey, or whether they were to form a separate legion, and to be commanded by their own officers? He had already strongly advocated the latter course, for the moment the Polish standard was raised in the Crimea it would no doubt be joined by a large number of the Poles now in the ser THE PRACTICAL CLASS AT WOOLWICH. MR. NAPIER said, he wished to call the attention of the House to certain circumstances connected with the recent nominations and appointments to the practical class at Woolwich. He considered a great injury had been done to the public service, and an act of injustice passed upon the University which he had the honour to represent. It appeared that, in consequence of the great want of artillery officers, a syllabus was prepared by Colonel Portlock, under the approbation of the Lieutenant General of the Ordnance. In this syllabus certain schools were requested to send forward the names of select students, thirty of whom were to be admitted into the practical class at Woolwich, without having gone through the theoretical class. Upon this the University of Dublin had acted, and a certain number of young men in the school of practical engineering, attached to the University, were invited to attend an examination. They were put through a severe examination, conducted by professors of the University. Amongst them were seven of superior merit, and the names of the seven, together with those of two others who had already obtained diplomas in engineering, were forwarded to the authorities at Woolwich. This was agreed to at a special board held on the 1st of March. On the 6th of March an answer was received by the Provost from the Ordnance Board, to the following effect "Sir-I am directed by the Board of Ordnance to inform you that a communication has been received from you recommending nine gentlemen for direct appointment to the practical class, Woolwich, and I have the honour to inform you that the gentlemen are already appointed for the next nomination, which takes place to-morrow, the 6th instant. As nineteen is the limit of age, the gentlemen whom you have recommended are not eligible. And I have also the honour to inform you that it is not the intention of the Board of Ordnance to throw open the appointments at Woolwich to the best answerers at a mere mathe matical examination." Upon this a request was made by the authorities of the University, on the 8th or 9th of March, that the names sent up by them might be taken into consideration on the next batch of appointments. It was not until the 29th that a refusal was received and the thirty appointments were all filled up. With respect to the ages, it appeared that three of those sent up from Dublin were under twenty years of age. The following was the manner in which the thirty places had been filled. Twelve of the thirty were persons of superior merit, and eighteen of them had no engineering qualifications whatever, but obtained their direct appointment by private influence. It so happened that two of the number thus appointed were from Dublin, and one of them had retired after the first day from the examination by which the qualifications of the persons sent up from the University of Dublin were tested. He, therefore, contended that the University of Dublin and other places which had acted in reliance upon the syllabus of Colonel Portlock had been dealt with unfairly, that the interests of the public service had not been consulted, and that the very merit of the persons so selected was an obstacle, and not an assistance to their advancement. As regarded the matter of age, the regulation required that the candidates must be above seventeen, and under twenty years of age. Now, it so happened that out of the seven that were selected and arranged in order of merit there were two who were nineteen years of age, and one who was eighteen years of age, but they were all three rejected. Of course he did not impute to the Board of Ordnance any intentional act of injustice towards the applicants from Trinity College, Dublin, but, certainly, the effect of the invitation which that Board had held out was to produce great disappointment to those who had undergone the examinations at that College. MR. MONSELL said, in answer to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, he had only to say that the Board of Ordnance had nothing whatever to do with regard to the regulations respecting the appointments to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman had referred. Those regula tions altogether rested with the Master General of the Ordnance. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had rather inconveniently mixed up two very separate questions. The first question was, whether the existing system of appointment was good or not; and the second question was, had that system been fairly carried out? With regard to the first question, he (Mr. Monsell) admitted that it was one of great importance, and well worthy the consideration of the House. Still, the real question the House had now to consider was, not whether the principle which had existed for so long a time at the Woolwich Academy was a good one or not, but whether it had been rightly and fairly applied in the present instance. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had fairly stated that he did not accuse any of the authorities with having acted unfairly, because it had been admitted that those authorities made the nominations, not upon the ground of merit, but merely in accordance with a system long established. At the same time, he believed that every care was taken that the young men who were nominated should be fitted to the situation to which they were appointed, although it was not pretended that they were selected because they were the fittest persons for the situation. MR. WHITESIDE said, he could not help remarking upon the answer which the hon. Gentleman had given to the complaint of his right hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Napier) — namely, that whatever might be the abuse in the system at the Woolwich Academy, it was not his business to inquire into or explain. A scholastic and scientific man at Woolwich College had drawn up a syllabus, in which was pointed out what were the sciences required to be known by candidates eligible for appointment under the Board of Ordnance, A copy of that syllabus came to MR. V. SCULLY said, he was strongly in favour of a public instead of a private examination. Until there was a public examination, Irishmen would not get fair play. At present not one-tenth of the Irishmen who were entitled to promotion received it, because the examinations were not public. There was not a single Cabinet Minister who was an Irishman. It had been stated, that the noble Lord at the head of the Government was an Irishman. He (Mr. Scully) had put this question in a letter addressed to the noble Lord. The answer to that letter he would not read, for a reason which he had given on a previous occasion. The noble Lord bore an Irish title, and was the owner of Irish property; but he felt very sorry that he could not claim the noble Lord as a countryman, although he was clever enough to be an Irishman. The noble the hands of the Provost of the University | made no charge whatever against the of Dublin. The consequence was, that Clerk of the Ordnance. the young men belonging to that University who had been initiated in mathematics, arts, and sciences, turned their attention at once to the engineering class. The Board of Ordnance had said that, if they thought fit to ask the authorities of the University to recommend them to the authorities at Woolwich, they should be considered eligible for appointment without being required to submit to any subsequent examination. Several young men accordingly submitted themselves to be examined by the authorities of Trinity College, and, having successfully passed their examination, they were recommended by the Provost to the Board of Ordnance at Woolwich. No less than seven young men came to Woolwich, but every one of them was rejected. These persons had been approved of on the sole ground of merit; and the answer of the hon. Gentleman the Clerk of the Ordnance was, that merit was not recognised by the Board of Ordnance. Such was the candid avowal of the hon. Gentleman, and yet surprise was expressed that the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Layard) should bring forward a Motion condemnatory of the present system by which Government appointments were made. Was it not astonishing that no better answer should be given to the statement of his right hon. and learned Friend than that the usual course had been followed? But the truth was that this vicious system of nomination had always pervaded the public service, and would continue to do so until, by repeated discussion and agitation, both in and out of that House, a remedy was finally forced upon the Government. Meanwhile, these questions would be continually brought forward, though it could hardly be expected that every complaint would be met with the same candid avowal as that which the hon. Member had made in the present instance. MR. HARCOURT VERNON said, that he had that day had a conversation with a brother of his, an officer in the Artillery, who had some reputation in his corps for scientific pursuits, and he stated to him that no one had, for many years, done so much for or rendered such important service to his, the Ordnance, department as the hon. Gentleman who now held the office of clerk, who had promoted scientific institutions by every means in his power. MR. WHITESIDE said, he begged it to be distinctly understood that he had SIR JAMES GRAHAM: Lord the Member for Portsmouth (Viscount Monck) is an Irishman. MR. V. SCULLY: I said a Cabinet Minister. The hon. Member for Portsmouth is not a Cabinet Minister. [Sir J. GRAHAM: The Clerk of the Ordnance.] I beg to remind the right hon. Baronet that I am not speaking of Members of the Government merely, but of Cabinet Ministers; and I repeat there is not one of them an Irishman. Reverting, however, to the remarks of the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Whiteside), I feel quite certain that to insure the due reward of merit, there ought to be public examinations. COLONEL DUNNE said, he wished to know what was the requisite test of effi ciency for the artillery service-what were the necessary qualifications, and on what ground the selections were made? Subject dropped. EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILLADJOURNED DEBATE (SECOND NIGHT). Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to be made to Question [10th May], "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," and which Amendment was to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "it be an Instruction to the Committee to divide the Bill into two Bills." Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." Debate resumed. THE EARL OF DALKEITH said, he should support the Amendment, for the Bill was strongly objected to by the landed proprietors of Scotland, chiefly on the ground that it would destroy a system which had proved itself highly beneficial during a period of centuries. He opposed the measure, not from any party or political motives, but because he was convinced that it would not be for the advantage of the country, and that it would not promote the cause of education so much as its friends believed it would. The landed proprietors of Scotland were not opposed to education, but on the contrary would give their best support to any scheme that would in a proper way effect that object. They objected, however, to the overthrow of the present well-tried system, and they were opposed to a plan which excluded religious teaching from the schools. He thought that the present was a good system, though he considered that it might be rendered more efficient; but if they separated these schools from the Church, it could not be expected that the ministers of religion would give up their time, and pay the same attention as heretofore to the course of instruction. He thought that if the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate were disposed to make some concessions, he would find hon. Members, now opposed to this Bill, ready to go hand and hand with him in his endeavours to extend the system of education. He MR. COWAN said, that the objection to this Bill was based upon religious grounds; but the school system which at present existed in the large towns of Scotland, and which it was proposed to extend to the rural districts, did not reject the elements of religious instruction. He thought Scotch Members had most reason to lament the effects of the present system in the rural districts of Scotland. wished the system of education pursued throughout the country was as efficient as it was in the city which he had the honour to represent. Some hon. Gentleman had alluded to the way in which the educational system now in Scotland worked in the rural districts, and spoke in high terms of its success. He would make a proposal to those hon. Gentlemen. He believed the noble Lord at the head of the Government was about to give them a week's holiday. Now he (Mr. Cowan) for one, had no objection to spend that week (if some of those hon. Gentlemen who thought so highly of the present system would join him) to go into a Select Committee, with fourteen others, and examine into and report upon the actual position of the educational system in the rural parts of Scotland. He fully admitted the importance of having some guarantee for the religious and moral character of school teachers; but he doubted very much whether the test now in operation in Scotland afforded that test. A Return made twenty years ago showed that out of sixty-five schoolmasters who had been deprived of their office, the great proportion of their deprivations were made in consequence of habitual drunkenness or gross immorality, and he was very much afraid matters in that respect had mended but little in modern times. How, then, could it be said that the existing test was sufficiently effective or the best calculated to accomplish the purpose for which it was intended. He was anxious to see a searching system of inspection established over the schools of Scotland, which should not only ensure learning in the teacher, and ability to impart that learning to others, but also some guarantee for his moral and religious character. That system of inspection, he believed, would be created by this Bill. He quite agreed with the hon. Member for Elginshire (Mr. C. Bruce) in the vast benefits which had been conferred, on that part of Scotland with which the hon. Gentleman was connected, by the Dick bequest, and it showed in the strongest light the good which might be effected throughout the country by a similar general system of inspection, carried out under the auspices of the Government. He believed that such a system would give a great stimulus to education. In 1847, the teachers who obtained those certificates in connection with the Established Church numbered thirty-one-in the Free Church, 182. The number of female teachers in connection with the Established Church who obtained these certificates was thirtyfive, while the number in the Free Church was eighty-four. There was nearly a similar proportion in the year which had last closed, but he would not trouble the House with details. When it was remembered that the Free Church had reared more than 500 schools, he thought hon. Members would agree that justice should be done. Instead of wishing to divide parties, he and those with whom he acted desired to bind up all parties and to heal all the differences that existed. He thought |