MR. DUFFY said, he was speaking at a great disadvantage before he had seen the proposed measure of the noble Lord; he was referring to the Bill as it had been sent from the Colony. They ought to remember that they were legislating not only for the half million of people now opponents of the Bill were resisting the power to the Legislature to make alterawishes of the colonists; but he believed tions in itself by the usual majority. the ground of the hon. Member's objection, and certainly the ground of his (Mr. Duffy's) objection, was, that it did not represent the wishes of the colonists, but had been passed in opposition to their vehement protest. Parliament had offered to New South Wales a boon fit for a great Legislature to offer to a great colony-in the colony, but also for the constant namely, responsible Government; and this flow of population from this country, and measure was a dishonest attempt to render they should take care not to legislate in that offer null and void. The colonists such a manner as to check that flow, and were determined to get rid of their present to deprive the colony of the services of system of Government; but if this Bill perhaps better men than it now contained. passed, the present system would be main-In Canada they had substituted an elected tained, and the present Legislature would in fact, under a new guise, continue to have the supreme control. It was proposed that the very men whom the colonists were determined to get rid of should have the power of nominating the Legislative Council in which the supreme authority would be vested for five years. This alone was a fatal objection. Then how was the Legislative Council to be constituted? Why, in the most objectionable manner. In the first place, one-fifth of its Members would be able to hold offices of emolument under the Crown. It might be desirable to have in the Council men trained to public business, but it was shown in an able pamphlet by Mr. Chapman, the late Colonial Secretary for Van Diemen's Land, that persons who held offices under the Crown in the southern colonies were frequently quite unfit for the business of legislation, and it was not uncommon to see a dumb Ministry, not a single Member of which was capable of explaining its views. By constituting a Council in such a manner they would prevent that reform of the land system which was universally desired by the colonists. The new Council would be a sentry over the monopolies of the class from which it would be mainly selected, the squatters and land jobbers. It would, perhaps, be very effective for this object, but undoubtedly it would be an entire failure for all purposes of legislation, as it would neither possess the confidence of the country, nor have any reliance upon itself. Then, how were they to get rid of the Council, if the state of feeling arose which the hon. and learned Gentleman had suggested? No alteration could be made in it, excepting with the consent of two-thirds of its own Members. LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, he had omitted to state that he proposed to give for a nominated Upper Chamber; at the Cape the Upper House was elective; and in New Zealand the Upper Chamber was about to become elective. Why should they establish in this colony the very thing which they had destroyed elsewhere? Another objection to the Bill was, that, although the large mass of the population thought the House of Assembly was elected upon an unfair basis, and with an unfair distribution of the representatives, the present arrangement was rendered permanent, and could only be got rid of by two-thirds of its Members committing political suieide. In truth, it was in no sense the Bill of the colonists; the elected Members, with a few notable exceptions, were taken from a class with whom the people were at war; and the official Members, in voting for an Upper House of nominees, acted under the impulse of the Colonial Office. In this sense it was less the Bill of the colonists than that of the right hon. Baronot the Member for Droitwich; and even the elected Members, a majority of whom had supported it, had voted for it in the expectation that they would be nominated to the Upper House. Men of intrigue got into the present Legislature who would never find their way into a new one created wholly by popular suffrage. The noble Lord said it was very hard to set aside the wishes of the colonists, but from the petitions presented to Parliament, they were decidedly opposed to a nominated Upper House. He had analysed those petitions, which were very numerous, and, taking the number of signatures, he found 12,152 against the Bill, 228 in favour of it, and forty-eight, out of a population of nearly 500,000, in favour of a half and half House, partially nominated and partially elected. The noble Lord found it difficult to decide what to do under the circum. 735 The Army-Consolidation {LORDS} of the Civil Departments. 736 Bills ordered to be brought in by Lord stances. It appeared to him the best | against the Bill was very trifling. The course to send the Bill back for reconsider- measure before the House came from the ation, with directions to the Governor to only constituted authorities competent to dissolve the present Legislative Council, inform them of the wishes of the coloand to call another, in which he would nists. The Government propose to adopt take care that the nominees were men en- the measure and give power to the colojoying the people's confidence, and not nists to alter or improve it at a future merely partisans pledged to support a no- time. From his short experience of the minated Upper Chamber. If a fair elec- colonies he knew that the best way to tion took place he had no doubt the new render a measure unpopular amongst the Council would frame a constitution repre- colonists was to endeavour to impose it on senting truly the opinions of the colonists. them in consequence of the recommendIf another course were adopted, and the ation of a Committee of that House; the Bill sent to a Select Committee, it could only safe way was to adopt the proposals be deliberately considered in a fortnight or coming from the colonists themselves. three weeks, and brought into harmony Leave given. with the expressed wishes of those who were so deeply interested in it. If neither of these things were done-if the Bill was sent back in its present shape, while in New Zealand, in Victoria, and in Van Diemen's Land the Upper Chambers were elective, he was sure the people of New South Wales would not be contented, and the constitution would become a permanent source of irritation. The Earl of Derby had said that Cabinets hated colonies. this Bill passed in its present shape the feeling would be reciprocal-colonists would hate Cabinets-and they might judge from the state of a neighbouring colony, that such a feeling, once roused in New South Wales, would not soon or easily be allayed. Whatever course the hon. Member for Kidderminster might adopt, he should take every opportunity of opposing the mea sure. If MR. W. WILLIAMS said, that the only reason assigned by the noble Lord for this Bill was that it was passed by the elected chamber; but the feeling of the people was clearly against it. What should be done was to leave the colonists to choose their own form of government. If they did not do that it would lead to continued trouble and difficulty, and final separation from this country. He would recommend to the noble Lord to send back the Bill to the colony as suggested by the hon. Gentleman opposite. MR. J. BALL said, that it was quite evident from what had already been said in the discussion that there was great inconvenience in debating a Bill which was not yet laid on the table of the House. He had every reason to believe that no excitement existed in the colony on the subject of the Bill; it was easy for an active party to get up petitions, but the number of signatures affixed to those The House adjourned at a quarter after Ten o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1a Sewers (House THE VIENNA CONFERENCES. EARL GREY: I beg to state to your Lordships that it is my intention to postpone bringing forward the Motion of which I have given notice for Monday till Friday next. I do so most unwillingly, and at great inconvenience to myself, but it has been represented to me by those who take the same view of the subject as I do, that it would be extremely disadvantageous to have the question debated in both Houses of Parliament on the same night. I therefore, though unwillingly, beg to postpone my Motion till Friday. THE ARMY-CONSOLIDATION OF THE CIVIL DEPARTMENTS. LORD PANMURE rose, according to notice, to make a statement of a Plan for the Consolidation of the Civil Departments of the Army, and said: My Lords, I have now, with your Lordships' permission, to address myself to a question, or rather to make a statement, most intimately connected with the administration of our military affairs; but I feel that it is impossible to refer to a military subject this day without saying one word in congratulation on the scene we have witnessed this morning on the parade of the Horse Guards. This, my Lords, is the first occasion on which a Sovereign of this country has condescended to distribute honours of this kind, not simply to men of high birth, holding high commissions in the army, but to the humblest soldier in her service who has shed his blood in defence of her Crown and of the country-in defence of her honour and of the honour of the land which gave him birth. It must have been a gratifying sight to your Lordships to witness so many brave and distinguished men receive these honours at the hands of their Sovereign, and I trust that this will not be a solitary instance of such a glorious scene, and that it will have the effect of inspiriting the youth of this country to come forward and enter into a service in which they, too, may distinguish themselves and receive similar rewards to those which have been bestowed to-day. With these few remarks, I now proceed to make the statement of which I gave notice, in the first instance, for Monday last. ill-regulated routine retards it. Without, therefore, a simple and well-regulated routine in all our official departments, we should have confusion instead of that simplicity which is so desirable, and which is one of the chief objects in the transaction of all business. My objection to the system on which the Board of Ordnance is conducted is, I am afraid, not confined to myself individually. During the six years in which I had the honour of holding the office of Secretary at War I was accustomed to hear such objections; and I found during that period that the delays which occurred in the Ordnance Department-through no fault whatever of the officers of the Board or of the other officers connected with that department-I say I found that the inconveniences which arose and the delays which occurred in that department were great obstructions to the effective administration of military affairs. Every Commission that has inquired into the administration of the army has made remarks to the same effect. Committees of the House of Commons which have inquired into the army and the Ordnance administration have also come to the same conclusion; and yet, my Lords, no Government has up to this moment undertaken to adopt any system by which the administration of the Ordnance Department might be amended or improved. It appears to me, then, that the general My Lords, I am not sorry that the delay which has unavoidably arisen has taken place, although I was quite prepared to make that statement on Monday. The changes which I am about to submit to your Lordships are not of a character which require the interference of any legislative enactment; but I think it would be only respectful to your Lordships and the country that no material changes should take place in the administration of the army opinion is, that something ought to be done which are not plainly-at least, as plainly as I can state them-laid in detail before your Lordships, with a full explanation as to the manner in which they are to be made, and the effect they will probably produce. In dealing with this subject, I must, in the first place, guard myself by saying that I have no intention whatever of reflecting in the smallest degree, either upon the official character, or upon the official zeal and exertions of any officer connected with the departments with which it is my purpose to deal. My Lords, I deal with the system, and, if I complain of anything, it is of the working of the system; it is not of the officers who have had the conduct of that system, which they could neither alter nor amend. Nor do I propose to find fault with mere routine. I perfectly agree with the noble Earl opposite who spoke the other night (the Earl of Derby), that no public, no official business could be conducted in this country without routine. A well-regulated routine advances public business as much as an VOL. CXXXVIII. [THIRD SERIES.] to simplify the civil administration of the army. But a question arises at the outset whether the present is a convenient time for making any large or extensive changes in our military administration. It has been hinted, if even it has not been broadly stated, that during a period of war changes to any extent in the administration of a war department would be likely to prove inconvenient, and to interfere with the conduct of the war. Now, I confess I do not share that opinion. It appears to me that if improvements can be made in any department, more especially in one connected with military administration, there is no time when it is so incumbent on us to make that improvement as the period in which it may be most beneficial and effective. And, having satisfied ourselves that by the changes which we propose, no interruption will occur in the military ser vice, that the supply of all the matériel of war will continue with, perhaps, more speed and more accuracy, while that matériel will be fully as good in quality; 2 B having satisfied ourselves that no difficul- of the Ordnance. In the same way, there ties will arise out of the various changes is a Deputy Adjutant General of Engiwhich are proposed, Her Majesty's Govern- neers, who, communicating with the Comment have resolved to make those changes with as little delay as possible. mander in Chief, would convey his orders to that corps precisely as he now conveys It is proposed, in the first place, to to it the orders of the Master General or abolish the Master General and the Board Lieutenant General of the Ordnance. It of Ordnance altogether. I need hardly would be wrong in me if I omitted this opinform your Lordships that the Board of portunity, while dealing with the military Ordnance and the office of Master General members of the Ordnance, of stating to is, perhaps, one of the most ancient esta- your Lordships that it is the concurrent blishments which exist in this country. I opinion of every officer, as well as of every think it dates from the time of Henry Member of Her Majesty's Government, VIII., and it has borne in the military and of other Governments, who have had establishment of the State a far higher to do with Sir Hew Ross and Sir John rank and distinction than of late years it Burgoyne, in their military capacity, that has been accustomed to hold. The Master two officers more meritorious on account of General and members of the Board hold their scientific knowledge, and who have their appointments by letters patent under taken greater pains to bring to perfection the Crown; and, therefore, no other step these branches of the service over which is necessary than for Her Majesty to dic- they have presided, never bore Her Matate a revocation of those letters patent, jesty's commission. The manner in which upon which the Master General and the the artillery was forwarded to the seat of whole Board of Ordnance cease to have war conferred upon Sir Hew Ross the any existence. The only question arising highest possible character, and stamped out of this proposed change in which Par- him as an officer of artillery of rare and liament will be required to render assist- uncommon merit. The manner, also, in ance is to enable the Secretary of State to which Sir John Burgoyne has conducted hold the lands which are at present vested operations as chief of the engineer departin the Board of Ordnance, under an Act ment is equally well worthy of my humble of Parliament, which will be introduced testimony, and of the approbation of your shortly into the other House. Now, the Lordships and of the country. My Lords, Master General and the Board being abo- I have felt that I could not touch upon this lished, it becomes necessary to deal with branch of the subject without making rethe whole establishment connected with ference to the services of these two distinthe Ordnance. Your Lordships are aware guished officers, who have been the means that this consists of two departments--one of bringing the artillery and engineer derelating to matters which are purely mili- partments of the army to their present tary, and the other to matters of purely state of perfection; but now I will pass to a civil character. The matters which are the civil branch of the Ordnance Departpurely military are the commands of the ment. The civil branch of that department Royal Artillery and of the Royal Engi- consists, as your Lordships are aware, of These commands it is proposed to the Master General of the Ordnance, who vest in the Commander in Chief of the is not a member of the Board, but who is army. I have never yet been able to supreme over the whole department, and understand why the Commander in Chief who can approve or disapprove the actions of Her Majesty's troops should not have of the Board; he can also order, on his the chief command as well of the Artillery own responsibility, the expenditure of any and Engineers as of the cavalry and in- money to carry on the business of the fantry. There can be no difficulty in the department, but all financial expenditure transfer of the command of the Artillery which he may order must be carried out by and Engineers to the Commander in Chief, the officers of the Board, who have the because in the Artillery there is a Deputy charge of its monetary or financial details. Adjutant General and an Assistant Quar- The next member is the Lieutenant Genetermaster General, entirely and exclusively ral of the Ordnance, an office which was belonging to that force, who can conduct formerly abolished, and was only renewed the military administration of that branch upon the departure of the Master General, of the service under the Commander in Lord Raglan, to assume the command of Chief, exactly in the same manner as it the army in the field; and then come was conducted under the Master General the Surveyor General, the Clerk of the neers. Ordnance, and the Principal Storekeeper. | responsible for all matters relating to the These four officers form the Board of civil administration of the army, and that it Ordnance. I will now proceed to state shall be his duty to move in one combined to your Lordships what are the duties estimate the whole expenditure of the which these officers are called upon to per- army, instead of that expenditure being form. The duties of the Master General, moved as at present in three distinct estias stated in the report of a Select Com-mates-one for the Army, another for the mittee, are, in a civil capacity, to take Ordnance, and another for the Commissaentire control over the whole department. riat :-it is proposed to combine these He has the power of doing any act on his three estimates in one, so that the House own authority which can otherwise, where of Commons and the country may see at he does not interfere, be done only by the one view what is the whole military expenBoard; he can order the expenditure of diture of the country for the current year, money for the purpose of the department, reduced, as I hope it may be in the course but that expenditure must be carried out of time, to a statement drawn up in a simby the officers of the Board. The Lieu- ple form, and easily understood by all. It tenant General at a time when the Master will further be the duty of this officer, General is present in this country, has no having conveyed the orders which he may active office, but in his absence he presides receive from the Secretary of State to the generally over the whole business of the different branches of the administration, Board. The Surveyor General has no pe- to see that those orders are regularly carculiar duties assigned to him, but he is to ried out, and, for that purpose, each branch exercise a supervision over the whole busi- will be called on to keep a day-book, and ness of the Board and of the department to enter in it the various orders which it generally. The Clerk of the Ordnance is may receive. A duplicate will be kept in the financial member of the Board; it is the office of the Secretary of State, in his duty to prepare the Estimates of the which he will note the orders issued upon money required for the service of the de- particular days, and, by calling daily or partment, and to lay them before Parlia- weekly for the production of the day-books ment, and generally to control and superin- of the various branches, he will be able tend the expenditure of the whole depart- by a comparison with his own, to trace at ment. The Principal Storekeeper, as his once the manner in which his orders have title implies, has the care of the immense been carried out, and to detect where there military stores belonging to the Crown-of has been delay or mal-execution, and thus all the ordnance, carriages, arms, and am- will be able to do that which is now found munition, and, in fact, he appears to me to to be so difficult, that is, to place the sadbe the officer of the greatest importance dle on the right horse. These are the and the most indispensable of those attach- chief duties which will appertain to this ed to the Board of Ordnance. These are new officer whom we propose to appoint. the superior officers at present constituting I now come to the existing offices in the the Board of Ordnance. Now, my Lords, civil administration of the Ordnance Deit is proposed, as I have stated, to abolish partment. I may say, my Lords, that that Board altogether, and this is the ar- in dealing with these offices I shall hold rangement which we propose to adopt for when the new arrangements take placethe future. We propose that the Secretary as I shall be responsible for the working of State for War shall have the supreme of the machinery I am about to explain to direction of, and be responsible for, the your Lordships-I shall hold these offices, administration of all the business of the however filled at present, to be virtually department. We propose to place under vacant. Reappointments may take place the Secretary of State, for the purpose of no doubt reappointments will take place carrying out his views and instructions, a-but I shall hold myself to be armed chief civil officer. The duties of that with authority to have the best men at the officer will be to receive all orders relating head of those different branches of admito the civil administration of the army from nistration, in order that, however we may the Secretary of State, to convey those or- succeed, we may at least have the best ders to the heads of the different branches, chance of working it to the best advanand to apportion them among the members of tage. My Lords, the first office to which the administration. It is further proposed I shall refer is the only one, with regard that this officer shall be a Member of the to which I find any difficulty in drawing House of Commons, that he shall there be the line of demarkation between the mi -no |