EARL GRANVILLE did not rise to oppose the Motion, but to express a hope that the Select Committee would seriously consider the effect of the noble Earl's proposition. He was anxious to do full justice to the motives which had induced the noble Earl to bring this subject under their Lordships' notice; but the question was whether, if this Bill were passed into law, it would be possible to carry out its provisions, for it would be an act of the very worst policy to call into operation an Act which would be habitually disregarded. He had very great doubt whether an Act such as the noble Lord proposed could be carried out without all the inspectors and varied machinery required for the supervision of labour in factories. He believed the noble Earl had not exaggerated in the slightest degree the sufferings of these unfortunate needlewomen; but it must be remembered that their labour, being a description of skilled labour, of which there was an enormous supply, the consequence was that very low wages were given, and that these women were obliged to work for many hours in order to earn sufficient to provide adequately for their subsistence. In some of the large millinery establish Committee was formed, consisting of many | police courts, to whom the jurisdiction in ladies of rank and position, who hoped that these matters was exclusively committed. they might be enabled, by their remon- The noble Earl concluded by moving that strances, to abate many of the evils which the Bill should be referred to a Select existed. Some good was effected for a Committee. time; the hours of labour were shortened, and Sunday work was abandoned. In the year 1853 the proprietors of many of the principal dressmaking establishments, to the number of fifty-three, resolved to abide by the rules laid down by the association, to reduce the hours of work, to provide suitable sleeping accommodation, to avoid overcrowding, not to require work on Sunday or all night, and to supply food of the best quality and unlimited in quantity. Since that time, however, he was sorry to say there had been strong indications of an inclination to revert to the old system, and the committee of the association to which he had referred had reported that some of the employers who had entered into a pledge to reduce the hours of labour had exacted sixteen and even seventeen hours' work from the young persons they employed, and that it appeared that, during the past year, many of the worst evils that disgraced the dressmaking business had been revived. There were, no doubt, some honourable exceptions, but he feared that the greater portion of the 15,000 young persons who were engaged in these establishments would be again exposed to all those evils from which it had been the object of the association to rescue them.ments a number of women were employed; In the hope of mitigating those evils he in some of the smaller establishments not had prepared the present Bill, which was more than two or three were employed, a very short one, which did not profess and in other cases piecework was distrimuch, and which did not perhaps require buted to work women to be completed at enough, and which could be carried out their own homes. He must say that he with very simple machinery. He admitted thought it would be impossible to carry out the difficulty of legislating in the matter; the plan proposed by the noble Earl, and but, at the same time, it was a great thing if it were carried out he saw no limit to to obtain a decision from the Legislature interference with every sort of labour. against the barbarities that were practised There was, no doubt, great hardship in and to have them stamped with illegality. many cases in the servants' hall, and if a He proposed that between the 1st of May law were passed enforcing limited labour and the 1st of August, which included in milliners' establishments, where somewhat was called "the London season,' ,"times not more than two or three workwowork should be prohibited between the hours of ten at night and eight in the morning, and that during the remaining months of the year work should be prohibited between eight at night and eight in the morning. He also proposed that an hour and a half should be allotted to meals in the course of the day out of the working time; and that all proceedings for the enforcement of penalties under the Bill should be taken before magistrates at the men were employed, their Lordships might be called upon to enact laws to prevent the energies of domestic servants from being overtaxed. He hoped, therefore, that the Committee would give the subject very serious and attentive consideration. THE EARL OF MALMESBURY said, he must remind the noble Earl that they had already relinquished the principle of not interfering with labour, and had passed laws to protect the poor from overwork; they had, therefore, to discuss, not the principle of interfering with labour, but the question whether or not it was expedient to apply it in this particular case. He thought he could prove that there was no class which so much required the protection of the Legislature as that class whose interests had just been advocated by the noble Earl. In the first place, their sex, to a certain extent, gave them additional claims to the consideration of the Legislature. The argument of the noble Earl opposite, that the girls employed in millinery, dressmaking, and similar establishments, were not so much in a position to be overlooked as the girls employed in factories, was only another reason, in his opinion, for pressing the duty of investigation upon the Legislature. He should certainly support the Motion of the noble Earl. LORD CAMPBELL did not deny the power of the State to interfere; but he questioned whether in this case the State could interfere beneficially. He admitted that the State had interfered beneficially in the case of the factories, but what he deprecated was the enactment of a law that would undoubtedly be a dead letter. If the noble Earl could point out any manner in which his Bill could be enforced, he would most heartily support it. Machinery was provided in the Factories Act for the enforcement of that measure; but the present Bill, as the noble Earl had explained it, was entirely devoid of any such machinery. The noble Earl did not propose to appoint inspectors, or to adopt any other means for the purpose of seeing whether the law would be carried into effect or not. Indeed, it would be impossible to send inspectors all over England, to see that needle women were not overworked; but unless the noble Earl provided some machinery of that sort, it was quite clear that to pass the Bill would be to enact a law for the very purpose of its being broken. The noble Earl had stated that there was a great reluctance on the part of needlewomen to come forward and state the hardships they endured. Could it be expected, then, that they would come forward and lodge information against their employers? Čertainly not. The law, therefore, would be a dead letter, incapable of being enforced, and consequently inadequate to effect any useful purpose what ever. LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY denied that the principle of the Bill had been conceded by the Legislature. The principle which had been adopted was, that Parliament had a right to interfere with the labour of persons under a certain age, and not with regard to adult persons. With regard to the present measure, he concurred in all that had been stated by the Lord Chief Justice, believing that it would be almost impossible to enforce such a law. In fact, the Bill as it stood at present would interfere with numerous private families throughout the country; for it would be difficult to separate the case of a lady employing her own maid at needlework after ten o'clock at night from that of a milliner or dressmaker employing a large number of hands. sanc THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY said, it was a mistake to suppose that the principle of this Bill had not received the tion of the Legislature, for three great measures had already been passed by their Lordships-the Factories Act, the Act restricting labour in mines, and the Hours of Labour Act-in which adult women had protection given to them, and he could not see why adult women should not receive protection in this case. A great proportion of the persons who would be affected by the Bill were girls of tender years, principally under twenty years of age. His noble Friend the President of the Council seemed to have fallen into some confusion upon the subject, and spoke of milliners, and dressmakers, and needlewomen as though they were of the same class. That was a mistake, for the needlewomen formed a totally distinct class, being principally what were called "slop women," and they were a class who were helpless and friendless, and who were subject to the greatest oppression. It was not intended, however, that this Bill should apply to the needlewomen properly so called, who lived in their own houses, and worked for great establishments elsewhere, but to milliners and dressmakers who lived in the houses of their employers, chiefly in the fashionable districts of the metropolis. The noble Earl admitted the enormity of the evil, but said that nothing could be done. But, to admit the evils by which these unfortunate women were surrounded, and then to say that nothing should be done to remedy them, was, he thought, a declaration on the part of the Government which showed that they were prepared entirely to repudiate the duties intrusted to them. He must certainly say that it reflected no credit upon Members of the Government and Cabinet Ministers to ad- | mit the enormity of an evil that was disgraceful to the country and to humanity, and then, rather than make an effort to remedy it, to declare that they were content to allow things to remain as they were. LORD OVERSTONE thought that the noble Earl had entirely misunderstood the remarks of the noble Earl the President of the Council. All the noble Earl had said was, that in referring this measure to a Select Committee he felt it his duty, as the head of the Government in that House, earnestly to remind the Committee that they would have to deal with an exceedingly delicate and dangerous matter, and that it would be necessary for them to examine most carefully the provisions of the Bill, in order to see that all the good which the noble Earl proposed to effect would be really effected. Further, the noble Earl (Earl Granville) impressed upon the Committee the necessity of guarding against inflicting an indirect injury where they intended to effect a positive advantage. In interfering with the freedom of labour it would be very easy to impose restrictions which, though appearing to produce considerable benefit, would in reality be highly mischievous. He (Lord Over stone) therefore thought that it would be impossible to attend too carefully to the admonition of the noble Earl the President of the Council. enforcing such a law; and the noble Earl would himself admit that it was not desirable to have upon the statute book laws which could not be enforced. EARL TALBOT said, that, though there was no law without some defect, the laws already passed for regulating the hours of labour had, he believed, proved very beneficial, and he saw no reason to doubt that further legislation in the same direction would be attended with equal advantage. He thought their Lordships, and the community at large, owed a deep debt of gratitude to his noble Friend for bringing forward this and other measures of the kind. Motion agreed to; Bill referred to a Select Committee under Standing Order No. 175, relative to Bills for regulating Trade. House adjourned till To-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Thursday, June 14, 1855. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1° Court of Exche EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL. On the question that the Preamble should be postponed, of the Government with reference to a subject on which much misapprehension had existed in the public mind. The question he wished to put was, if the Bill passed into law, was it the intention of the Government to distribute, as heretofore, the Privy Council grants among Roman Catholics, Episcopalians, and Presbyterians? THE DUKE OF ARGYLL said, the censure passed by the noble Earl opposite upon his noble Friend the President of the Council rested entirely upon a misconception of what his noble Friend had stated. Not one word had fallen from his noble LORD ELCHO said, he was anxious, at Friend against the abstract principle of that early stage of the proceedings, to put those measures which had already receiv-a question to the noble Lord at the head ed the sanction of the Legislature, but he had merely pointed out the practical difficulty of enforcing such a law as that proposed by the noble Earl opposite. He understood from his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Shaftesbury) that up to this year he had seen very great difficulties in the way of such a measure. Now, his noble Friend must not be surprised if the difficulties felt by him in former years, and which he had only just now overcome, should press severely on the minds of others. For his own part, considering the nature of the employment, and that it was carried on chiefly in private houses, he (the Duke of Argyll) saw great practical difficulties in the way of VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, if the Bill came into effect, he apprehended that it would make provision for certain schools by rates. There were also certain schools, Episcopalian and Roman Catholic, for which no provison was made in the Bill. Their object was to diffuse education, and there was not the slightest intention to Holy Scriptures," to the word "And," in line 20, in order to insert the words "ought not to be conducted at the expense of any of Her Majesty's subjects who conscientiously object to the principles taught, or to compulsory Taxation for the teaching Religion, or to the reading of the Scriptures, in any Public School." deprive any body of any assistance hither-I Amendment proposed, in page 1, line to given by the Privy Council, which 16, to leave out from the words " would participate in the benefits of the Bill. With respect to the Episcopalian and Roman Catholic schools, there would not only be no diminution of the grant hitherto made to these bodies, but Her Majesty's Government and the Privy Council were disposed to give the most favourable consideration to the claims of those communities to which such schools belonged. If there were any schools, whether in the towns or the country, not in so flourishing a condition as could be wished, they would rather increase than diminish the aid previously given to schools of this class. MR. HADFIELD said, he thought, in common consistency, the same assistance should be afforded to the Wesleyans and all other denominations who would be excluded from the benefis of this Bill by the clause which required that the Assembly's Shorter Catechism should be used in the schools, as was to be extended to the two sects named by the noble Lord. He also wished to know if this rule would extend not only to the two bodies mentioned by the noble Lord, but to all classes of Christians, or even without any profession of Christianity, under the secular system? THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he thought he could satisfy the hon. Member that he would have no cause of complaint. It was proposed to deal with the Episcopalians and Catholics as exceptional cases; for, as he believed, in many instances they would not be able to take advantage of the present system. No denominational body would be excluded from any participation in the grant. THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he believed the hon. Gentleman misunderstood the clause, in supposing that it would exclude Wesleyans; but whether or not, the Government would not, he presumed, exclude the schools of any denomination which might not come within the benefits of the Bill from assistance from the grants of the Committee of Privy Council. MR. E. BALL said, he should give his most decided opposition to the Amendment. Its effect would be to abolish religious teaching in the schools throughout the country; and, in his opinion, the time had come when they were bound to do everything in their power to promote the spread of religious education among the community. THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he did not concur with those who thought that taxes should be levied for the purposes of religious education; and, therefore, though he believed the opinion of the hon. Member was shared by a large number of persons, he felt bound to oppose the Amendment. MR. APSLEY PELLATT said, he thought that the denominations for whose benefit this Bill was introduced ought not to be allowed to tax the whole community for their own benefit. It was, in fact, coming before the House in forma pau MR. CUMMING BRUCE said, he would suggest that the consideration of the Pre-peris, and was unworthy of a body of amble should be taken at once. THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he had no objection to the Preamble being at once proceeded with. MR. HADFIELD said, he should now beg to beg to introduce the Amendment of which he had given notice. He objected to taxing persons for a system of education of which they might disapprove from conscientious scruples, and he should take the sense of the Committee on that vital point. MR. HEYWORTH said, he should willingly second the Amendment, for he considered that it was contrary to the principles of justice to tax the whole community for the benefit of any one class. persons who had formerly declared their objections to all State endowments for the benefit of any religious sect. As it happened, he was of this particular faith, but he did not wish to force all people to help to support the education of that faith. He apprehended this was only the small end of the wedge, in order to introduce the principle generally. MR. F. SCOTT said, he hoped the Amendment would be withdrawn, but, at the same time, he must express his concurrence with the view taken by the hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. A. Pellatt) in reference to the inconsistency of the Free Church party. His wishing that the Preamble be taken first was that he was anxious that the religious principles of the Bill should be adopted, and that having been done his purpose was attained. MR. ALEXANDER HASTIE said, that the hon. Member must have been deeply ignorant of the feeling of the people of Scotland if he supposed that they would take exception to the statement in the Preamble of the Bill in reference to scriptural education. MR. CUMMING BRUCE said, he would now move to introduce words declaring that the Christian religion should be taught in the schools as the only sound basis of education, and as consonant with the belief of the great majority of the people of this country. Amendment proposed, in line 17, after the word " Country," to insert the words ought to be maintained as the basis of Education and." 66 THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he con Question put, "That those words be there inserted." The Committee divided: - Ayes 68; Noes 105: Majority 37. MR. MAGUIRE said, he wished to say a few words on behalf of the Roman Catholics of Scotland. The Roman Catho-sidered that the religious principle was lics of the country generally were as much sufficiently clear in the Preamble as it in favour of education as any other deno- stood. mination; but they objected to being taxed for the advantage of other denominations while they themselves derived no benefit from such taxation. There were 250,000 Irish Roman Catholics in Scotland, and of these 100,000 were resident in Glasgow. These had a claim to education from the State as well as the rest of the community; and if provision for that pur-" altered" should be omitted, and the pose was not made in the Bill, they had a right to that assistance from the grants of the Committee of Privy Council, which the noble Lord now admitted they had. That admission on the part of the noble Lord perfectly satisfied him, and he should, therefore, offer no opposition to the Bill. MR. HADFIELD, in reply, said, he was as much the friend of religious education as any one; but he would not come to the State or tax others for the purpose of extending his religion. The right hon. and learned Lord Advocate might now return to his country and tell the pitiful tale that by bribing the Roman Catholic Members, the Government had succeeded in passing the Bill and taxing Dissenters for the religious education of Presbyterians. MR. CUMMING BRUCE said, that the Preamble was all they could cling to for the religious principle, and he intended to move certain words to give that principle more effect. MR. F. SCOTT said, he begged to move that in the paragraph declaring that the superintendence of the schools should be altered and amended" that the word word "extended" substituted for it. He thought that as the management was admitted to be successful, no imputation of deficiency ought to be cast upon the parochial system of education in Scotland. Amendment proposed in page 2, line 4, to leave out the word "altered" in order to insert the word "extended." Question put, "That the word 'altered' stand part of the preamble." The Committee divided:-Ayes 115; On Question "That the Preamble, as Preamble agreed to. MR. SMOLLETT said, he would suggest that the consideration of the interpretation clause should be taken next. THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he thought it more advisable to proceed in the usual order. It was clear that if they discussed all these terms they would make no MR. DE VERE said, that after the progress, and it would be impossible to deexplanation given by the noble Lord (Vis-cide the interpretation of terms until they count Palmerston), which removed the knew the provisions of the Bill. ambiguity previously existing as to the intentions of Government in reference to the Roman Catholic schools in Scotland, he should give his support to the measure. Question put, "That the words ' as heretofore in use in the parochial,' stand part of the Preamble." The Committee divided :-Ayes 167; Noes 7: Majority 160. MR. BLACKBURN said, he should support the suggestion, and would point out the case of the Poor Law Bill as an example in which the same course had been taken. MR. SMOLLETT said, he would not press his suggestion to a division. Clause 1. (Board of Education established). |