could not fail to raise in the minds of their | some clear definition would be given as to Lordships various reflections as to the con- how many men could be sent out in product and the present state of the War De- portion to the tonnage, and as to whether partment in general, and as to this embar- the men should be under the deck or not kation in particular. It struck him as under deck. He remembered having once being very curious to see the noble Lord, seen 4,000 men embarked in a ship of who must be considered a civilian, en- 2,000 tons, and sent from Constantinople tering into an explanation of the details of to Samos. They were not permitted to all the different branches of the War Ad- move from their places. It appeared to ministration, when a distinguished general him that the various opinions entertained -the Commander in Chief of the army at the various ports of embarkation would was sitting at the noble Lord's right hand very materially damage the means of and acting as his tutor by telling him what conveyance. It was absolutely necessary to say upon the subject. This was a bit that some distinct arrangements should be of machinery which he ventured to say made with regard to the embarkation of would not work. If he understood the noble troops. Lord rightly, he stated that the system now was, for the Secretary for War, when he wished to send troops abroad, to write to the Transport Board, and then the Transport Board communicated with the Admiralty; and then the Secretary for War informed the Commander in Chief, and then the embarkation took place; whereas, under the old system, as he was morrow. informed, a simple communication took place between the Commander in Chief and the Admiralty.

LORD PANMURE said, he had been informed by his noble Friend (Earl Grey) that the mode formerly adopted was, that when a regiment was required to be sent abroad, the Secretary for the Colonies informed the Admiralty of the fact, and the Admiralty provided the proper amount of transport service.

EARL GREY said, perhaps he might be allowed to state, in corroboration of his noble Friend's remarks, that the usual course was for the Secretary for War to state to the Admiralty that such and such regiments were about to be sent abroad on such and such a day, and that department provided the necessary amount of transport.

EARL MINTO was understood to corroborate the observations made by the noble Lord the Secretary for War (Lord Panmure).

THE EARL OF HARDWICKE had misunderstood the observations of his noble Friend (Lord Panmure). It appeared now that no alteration had been made in the mode of communication. With regard to the Alma, it appeared that considerable difference of opinion had prevailed, for, whereas at Liverpool she was considered capable of carrying 1,400 men, it had been thought at Portsmouth that she could only carry 1,000. The public naturally hoped that

LOAN BILL.

LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY moved the second reading of the Loan (16,000,0007.) Bill, and gave notice of his intention to move the suspension of the Standing Orders, so as to pass, it through its remaining stages on the

LORD MONTEAGLE knew the necessity of not impeding the passing of such a measure, but there were some portions of the Bill which called for remark, and he hoped that an opportunity would be afforded on the morrow to have a discussion on it.

LORD RAVENSWORTH said, that he must ask for the usual indulgence of their Lordships in rising to address them for the first time. He could not avoid, on this Bill being presented to the House, expressing his concern at the circumstances which had arisen which rendered the presentation and acceptance of the Bill before their Lordships almost imperative-he alluded to the failure of the negotiations at Viennawhich he and the country considered as the evidence of an indefinite prolongation of the war. He had hoped, as it was the evident interest of all parties, that some arrangement might have been entered into for the pacification of Europe, and he could not now avoid expressing his great concern that this expectation had been disappointed. As it was, however, with war in prospect, it had become our duty to direct our attention to the means of carrying it on with vigour. He found that two burdens of no inconsiderable extent were to be entailed upon the country, and of these the present Bill for raising by loan 16,000,000l. formed an important item. The Estimates for the present year for carrying on the navy amounted to more than 16,000,000l.;

the prospects before us were somewhat disheartening, and express the concern of this country and of the whole of Europe that the negotiations for peace had been brought to a close; and he only hoped that those mistakes which had arisen in carrying on the war on the part of the Government, and the profuse expenditure of the public money without adequate results, would also be brought to a close. He considered that up to this moment Her Majesty's Go

almost an equal sum was required for the army; the Ordnance Estimates were between 7,000,000l. and 8,000,000l., while 3,000,000l. more were devoted to other military purposes; the expenditure in the whole amounting to 44,000,0001. The present Loan Bill had passed the ordeal in another place, which might be considered more directly the guardian of the public expenditure, and it might perhaps be thought presumptuous in him to offer any remarks on it. He did not, however, in-vernment had not taken all the steps which tend to offer any direct opposition to the Bill, but at the same time he must say that it was of a nature to excite some discussion and criticism. Out of doors it was asked by those who were engaged in the trade and commerce of the country, why had not the Chancellor of the Exchequer come into the money market for the full amount required-that was, for some 20,000,000l. or 21,000,000l. of deficiency -instead of coupling the loan with other devices, and laying on additional taxes direct and indirect. He did not go the full length with those who would have the whole raised by loan, but he went so far as to think that this additional taxation was an earnest of the apprehension of the Government that the war would be indefinitely prolonged. If there had been any reason for believing that the war would have ceased in six or twelve months, then he should have concurred with those who considered it unwise to resort to this mode of indirect taxation by levying additional duty on articles which entered so largely into the consumption of the working classes, and which would tend to disturb those fiscal arrangements which had been made with the general consent of the people. If, on the other hand, there was reason and he feared that there was too much to apprehend that war would be prolonged much beyond twelve months, then he agreed with the policy which included articles of general consumption in the means for raising the required amount to carry on the war, as it was necessary, in such case, to attempt to restore to some extent the indirect taxation which had been too hastily abandoned. If, therefore, they were to regard the proposition of the Government as an indication that the war would not be concluded within a short time, he was willing to agree to their proposal. Such he knew were the feelings of the mercantile classes, and he did not hesitate to give his sanction to and express his opinion upon them. He must confess that

they might have taken, and ought to have taken, towards bringing the war to a successful termination. He could not help reverting to this time last year, when, in the Estimates brought before their Lordships, the expense of carrying troops as far as Malta was contemplated, and, at the same time, the expense of the return of those troops was also estimated. He could not help recollecting that the noble Lord, one of the most distinguished Members of Her Majesty's Government, in another place, whom he could only describe as the unsuccessful negotiator of the interests of this country at Vienna, seemed last year to entertain a trifling opinion of the war in which they were about to engage, and declared that it was so far from being an objection to the reform measure which he introduced that he considered it rather favourable, at the same time that they were entering upon a war with the most colossal Power in Europe, to engage also in a civil war at home for the question of reform in Parliament. These considerations would now press on his mind, because he had seen what the Government had attempted, and also that they were not even at present fully aware of the importance of having recourse to all their resources for the purpose of putting an end to the war. Although the Government had called on Parliament and on the people for these large supplies, they had as yet neglected to avail themselves of other means in their power of distressing the enemy. That question had been brought before the House of Commons, and it had been mentioned in their Lordships' House, but he could not consider that it had had a fair consideration or deliberation by the limited number of noble Lords who had attended on that occasion. His belief was, that in addition to those resources in our own country which we had drawn upon, we should have directed our attention to the stoppage of the commerce of Russia. He trusted that an opportunity would be afford

ed for entering fully into that subject, and | There was considerable difficulty in findhe would put a notice on their Lordships' ing a competent tribunal to decide this books when he would draw attention to question. Two modes of doing so were, the question of vigorously arresting Russian commerce. Having now shadowed out some of the main objections entertained to this loan, and in doing so discharged what he felt to be a duty, he would not trespass further on the attention of their Lordships, but would conclude by thanking them for the indulgence which they had extended to him.

my return, and also because I thought was again called together to receive the that the noble Marquess near me (the answer which had arrived from St. PetersMarquess of Lansdowne) had stated that burg, the Russian plenipotentiaries anHer Majesty's Government would lose no nounced that they had no proposal whattime in giving that information to the ever to make; and the allied plenipotenHouse which your Lordships have required tiaries then submitted to them a scheme on the subject of the late negotiations at which, I should think, Russia, without any Vienna, and that no statement would con- hurt to her dignity, but with very much sequently be expected from me on that addition to her honour as a first-class Eunight. I trust, however, that your Lord- ropean Power, might have accepted, if she ships will not be under the very erroneous had been inclined to prove to the world impression that Her Majesty's Government that her policy was as pacific as she had had any intention to withhold the fullest always affirmed it to be, or to remove the information on this important subject which uneasiness of Europe by giving guarantees they could give to the House; and for against future acts of aggression which she myself, I trust that I have always shown declared she did not contemplate. The a readiness to answer any question that Russian plenipotentiaries asked forty-eight might be put to me, so far as I was able hours to consider these plans, and at the to do so without detriment to the public end of that time absolutely rejected them, service. I consider it a duty imperative as well as of another plan put forward by and incumbent upon me, in a time of so the French plenipotentiary, and agreed to much intense and natural anxiety to be by us, for excluding all vessels of war correctly informed with respect to those from the Black Sea, and rendering it a important matters, to afford to your Lord-sea for commercial purposes alone. The ships all the information in my power; but Conferences were then suspended-they I have too often experienced your Lord- were not actually broken off-aud no time ships' indulgence in these matters to be- for another meeting was then appointed. lieve that even now you would wish me to My noble Friend (Lord John Russell) left divulge anything which I believed at the Vienna on the 23rd of last month; M. present moment would be prejudicial to Drouyn de Lhuys stayed two or three days the interests of the country. As a proof, longer, Lord Westmoreland and M. Drouyn my Lords, of the spirit in which the ne- de Lhuys were invited by Count Buol, on gotiations at Vienna were carried on, and the part of the Russian plenipotentiaries, the desire of the Governments of France to attend another Conference, in order to and England to do nothing that should receive propositions from them. M. Drouyn offend either the honour or dignity of de Lhuys and Lord Westmoreland agreed Russia, I may state-as indeed I men- to attend this Conference; and Her Mationed the other evening in answer to a jesty's Government have the form of the question put to me by my noble Friend-proposal then made by the Russian plenithat the plenipotentiaries of Russia were potentiaries, but have not yet received the invited themselves to take the initiative, protocols which contain the discussions and to propose the measures which they which have taken place. But we have thought would best carry out the principle seen quite enough to enable us to concur of the third basis of the negotiations, to in the opinions of the allied plenipotenwhich they had already given their assent. tiaries, that the proposals of the Russian The Russian plenipotentiaries acknowledg- Government were not of a character to ed, as they could not fail to do, the spirit promote or accomplish the objects contemwhich had induced this course; but, some-plated by the third basis of the negotiawhat to the surprise of their colleagues, tions. This, my Lords, is the present they announced that they were without in-state of affairs; and although we shall structions upon that important subject, and that it was necessary for them to refer to St. Petersburg. The time necessary was given them; but in the meantime the Allied Powers declined to alter the order in which the Four Points were originally placed, and refused to discuss the fourth point, upon which it was possible some concessions might be made, until the third point was disposed of. When the Conference

certainly not object to these Conferences meeting again, provided there is anything of a real and substantial character in the proposals put forward, yet we think that, after they have been suspended, their meeting again without any real or specific object might give the erroneous notion that the negotiations were being carried on, while, in fact, that was not the case. The protocols shall be laid upon the table of

the House without delay, and your Lord- the papers which have been promised, and ships will see in those protocols not simply which I am glad to find are not alone to a record of the conclusions which have contain the mere decisions and opinions been come to, but the report of the dis- of the various Powers that were present at cussions which took place, and of the opi- the Conferences, but also the arguments nions expressed by the plenipotentiaries of and grounds upon which those Powers each Power present during the Conference. based their respective conclusions. UnI think your Lordships will not consider doubtedly, from such a collection of docuthe statement which I have had the honour ments we may gain considerable light, not to make either. satisfactory or conclusive, only as to what is past, but also on what unless I am able to inform the House of is of still more importance-our prospects the course which the Government of Aus- for the future. But I must say that, altria intends to take in these matters. It though I concur with the noble Earl that is upon this particular point that I am at no prospect, however slight, of obtaining present anxious to observe that prudent a safe and honourable peace should be reserve for which upon previous occasions sacrificed by this country, yet I have heard I have received your indulgence whenever from him, almost with feelings of regret, I have thought that the circumstances of that after an extent of forbearance has the case really demanded it. My reasons been shown on the part of the allied Powfor this are, that when the sittings of the ers in limiting their demands upon Russia Conference were suspended, Count Buol to an extent the good policy of which may expressly stated that he considered that be open to serious question, the proposithe means for arriving at a basis of nego- tions of the Allies having been totally tiations were not exhausted, and that it rejected, and no counter propositions-at would be the special duty of Austria to least, none of a reasonable characterendeavour to discover some mode of attain- having been offered by the enemy-I must ing that end consistently with the engage- repeat, that I learn with regret that fresh ment which she had entered into with propositions and fresh negotiations are still other Powers. My Lords, whether any in prospect, because I fear that they can proposal that may be thus framed will be have no other object but that of wasting likely to be satisfactory to Her Majesty's time and prejudicing the cause of the Government I am sure I cannot venture to Western Powers. I must say, that I say; but on a question of such magnitude, think the propositions which have been as whether it may be possible to conclude made by the Allied Powers to Russia are a safe and honourable peace, I am per- even now below those which the requiresuaded that your Lordships will feel that ments of the case demand; and that the any proposition that may be made to us concessions which were made to her, even should receive a patient and unprejudiced if they had been accepted, would have consideration from Her Majesty's Govern- rendered useless-if not worse than usement-and the more so, as that conside- less-the great expenditure of blood and ration is at the same time quite compatible treasure to which England and France with the vigorous prosecution of military operations and also that the consideration of those subjects, or the prospects of peace which may be possible, should not be in any way endangered by premature discus

sions or announcements.

THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I should regret, as much as any of your Lordships, that the noble Earl should disclose anything which it would be prejudicial to the public interests to disclose prematurely :-nevertheless, I must be permitted to say that the statement which he has just made to your Lordships appears to me to be of a very unsatisfactory nature. Undoubtedly, before discussions can take place in this House upon the present state of public affairs, it will be necessary that we should have before us

have been put since the commencement of the war. I sincerely hope that the Government of Austria is in earnest in its endeavour to bring about a safe and honourable peace-I hope it is in earnest in its desire to fulfil its engagements to support by active assistance the endeavours of the Allies to obtain a satisfactory peace, and that, in the event of peace being obtained, it intends faithfully to perform obligations the hope of inducing Austria to contract which has cost England and France so much of precious time and valuable advantage in their military operations. My Lords, we are now in the second year of this war, and throughout the whole of its progress we have been told over and over again that, although it was quite true that Her Majesty's late Government and the