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LEASES AND SALES OF SETTLED

ESTATES BILL.

House in Committee (according to Order).

Lordships, and especially the law Lords, would, when they came to hear the arguments upon the question, decide calmly and dispassionately, looking at all the clauses of the Act of Union, and that nothing which had passed to-night would tend to prejudice the right of any party. LORD ST. LEONARDS: According to this method, poor Lord Fermoy would have to battle the case, in order to try the rights of the Crown.

THE EARL OF WICKLOW was sorry the noble Earl the President of the Council had acquiesced in the proposition for a Select Committee, because by so doing he would prejudice the case of Lord Fermoy, who would be thereby deprived of the services of counsel, of which he could avail himself, if the case were simply brought before the House. He would have less objection to a Committee of Inquiry; though, even in that case, the consequences must be injurious to Lord Fermoy, when he came before their Lordships to claim the right of voting for representative peers. He would suggest to their Lordships, that the question could be discussed when Lord Fermoy appeared before their Lordships to establish his right to vote for representative peers.

LORD CAMPBELL said, he thought the question might be disposed of as had been just suggested; but he considered, at the same time, that the noble Earl opposite was justified in making the Motion before the House, because Lord Fermoy might refrain from bringing forward his claim to vote for representative peers. If Lord Fermoy presented a petition to be heard by counsel before the Committee, he was sure they would not hesitate for a moment to hear him by counsel.

THE EARL OF HARDWICKE observed, that any opinion expressed by their Lordships in debate ought to have no influence with the Lord Chancellor and other noble and learned Lords, when the question came before them in a judicial capacity.

THE EARL OF DERBY said that, as the Attorney General was in favour of the creation of the barony, it was not to be expected that the duty of opposing the claim of Lord Fermoy could be intrusted to him. He wished to know, therefore, what course would be adopted in reference to the opposition to it.

LORD CAMPBELL suggested that counsel should be appointed by the House to argue the case.

Motion agreed to.

LORD ST. LEONARDS objected to the power given to parties to the settlement to sell the estate, which he considered would be a very dangerous innovation in the law, and a power that might be used by insolvent life-tenants to the prejudice of the estate. He also objected to throwing new business of this kind into the Court of Chancery, and complained generally of the course taken by his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack, in the various Bills he had introduced, of extending the business and the number of officials of that Court.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, the Court of Chancery was only empowered to do what their Lordships were in the habit of doing, when private Bills were introduced to effect the objects contemplated by this measure.

On Clause 11,

THE EARL OF DERBY objected to the extensive powers given to the Court of Chancery to sell the whole of an estate, and suggested that the powers should be limited to such outlying portions of an estate as it might be necessary to dispose of for the purposes contemplated by the Bill.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, the noble Earl had taken an extreme view of the case. A general power was given to sell, but, except in some very extraordinary cases, only outlying portions of an estate would be so disposed of in order to insure the improvement of the remainder.

THE EARL OF DERBY would not object to the sale of an outlying portion of an estate for the improvement of the rest; but power was here given by which the Court of Chancery might alienate a person's entire inheritance.

THE EARL OF WICKLOW thought the noble Earl had forgotten the real object of the Bill which was to prevent the necessity of coming to that House at great ex'pense, for an Act of Parliament to empower a sale. This being the great object of the Bill, the Court of Chancery ought to have the fullest powers. Without the power here given, the Bill would be comparatively a failure.

THE EARL OF DERBY said, the object he had in view would be secured, if the words "the whole or" were left out of the clause, and he accordingly moved,

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HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Monday, June 11, 1855.

MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1° Validity of Pro-
ceedings (House of Commons).

2o Insolvency and Bankruptcy (Scotland); Spirit
of Wine; Dwellings for Labouring Classes (Ire-
land); Youthful Offenders.
3° Gold Finger Rings.

ABSENCE OF MR. SPEAKER.

before they took their seats, did everything, as far as they were aware, which they were required to do by law; but they may be placed in a very inconvenient position unless some legislative enactment be passed which would protect them from any penalties they may have incurred for having sat in this House without having been sworn in strict conformity with the provisions of the Acts. I do not venture to give any opinion as to whether or not these doubts are well founded. I only throw out the suggestion in the hope that an early step may be taken for the purpose of giving such relief to these Gentlemen as the House may think expedient under the circumstances of the case.

SIR GEORGE GREY said, he was sure he was only expressing the universal feelings of the House, when he said that they deeply regretted the cause of the short temporary absence of the Speaker, and that it afforded them sincere gratification MR. SPEAKER addressed the House to find that the right hon. Gentleman was as follows: I have to offer my sincere able to resume that Chair which he had so thanks to the House for the very kind and long filled, to the great advantage of the indulgent consideration it has extended to House and the public interest. With reme whilst disabled from attending its ser- ference to the question to which the right vice by my late accident. I have the sa-hon. Gentleman had called attention, havtisfaction of knowing, that, owing to the ing previously received a private commuvery zealous and able manner in which the nication from him as to whether the two duties of the Chair have been discharged hon. Members referred to had taken their by the Chairman of Ways and Means, seats conformably with the strict letter of public business has not been impeded or the statute, he (Sir G. Grey) had coninterrupted in consequence of my absence. ferred with several hon. Members on both There is one circumstance, however, to sides of the House, learned in the law, which I ought to call the attention of the and others who were competent from their House. During my absence two Mem- experience to give an opinion entitled to bers, the Member for Aberdeenshire (Lord weight with the House, and they were Haddo) and the Member for Bath (Mr. unanimous in their concurrence with the Tite) have been called to the table, and view taken by Mr. Speaker, that a queshave taken the oaths and their seats. tion might be raised whether the oaths Now, the Acts which regulate the taking of had been taken strictly in accordance with oaths and the delivering in of the qualifi- the terms of the statute. They were of cations of Members of this House provide opinion further that the matter ought not that it shall be done within certain hours to be left in doubt, and that some step of the day, whilst the House is sitting should at once be taken to prevent that 'with their Speaker in the Chair;" and inconvenience to the two hon. Gentlemen I understand that doubts have been sug- who had taken the oath during the absence gested whether these words do not make of Mr. Speaker, to which the right hon. it absolutely necessary that the Speaker Gentleman had referred. It was no fault himself, and not any person appointed to of those hon. Gentlemen themselves that act as Speaker in his absence, should be the informality had occurred; they were in the Chair at the time. No doubt the called upon by the right hon. Gentleman, intention of the Legislature was, that the who was at the time acting as Deputy oaths should be taken in the most solemn Speaker, to come up to the table and take and public manner possible, when the the oaths in the usual manner, and they House was not in Committee; but I think did so. But to remove all doubts, and to it very desirable that the House should relieve the two hon. Members from all consider the point. These two Members, liability, he proposed to introduce a Bill

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immediately to render all proceedings which | themselves, to raise a discussion as to the had been taken during the absence of Mr. future mode of proceeding to be adopted Speaker as valid and effectual as they by the House. The best mode in his opiwould have been if the right hon. Gentle- nion would be to appoint a Committee to man had himself been present, and he hoped consider the subject separately. that Bill would meet with the support of the House.

MR. WALPOLE said, he cordially joined in the expression of regret at the cause of Mr. Speaker's temporary absence, and begged to offer his sincere congratulation at his return. With respect to the important question raised by the right hon. Gentleman as to the strict legality of swearing Members in the absence of the Speaker, it was necessary, at all events, to confirm the acts which had been done; and he should, therefore, be perfectly willing to support the right hon. Baronet's Bill. As this was the first occasion on which they had had practical experience of the working of the suggestion of the late Sir Robert Inglis, of appointing a Deputy Speaker, he would suggest that if the Committee which sat some time ago on the subject was reappointed the hon. Gentleman who had filled that office during Mr. Speaker's late absence might be able to give many valuable suggestions as to any inconveniences that might occur in carrying out that suggestion, and the best mode of remedying them. He would submit that when the right hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) brought in his Bill, he should move for the appointment of a Committee to consider in what mode the appointment of Deputy Speaker might best be made, so as to avoid any doubts or inconveniences that might arise from acts done by the House during the absence of the Speaker in future.

SIR GEORGE GREY said, he begged to thank the right hon. Gentleman for his suggestion, which he thought it might be very desirable to adopt.

MR. WILSON PATTEN said, he thought there would be no necessity for

SIR WILLIAM HEATHCOTE said, he would suggest that every arrangement necessary might be made by a Standing Order without an Act of Parliament. It was a matter of grave consideration whether they should alter those regulations in dealing with the office of Speaker which had been in use for centuries. The difficulties which had arisen proved, as he ventured to state the other day, when the Resolution for appointing the Deputy Speaker was proposed, that much caution was necessary on this subject. Whatever was done should be done with great gravity, after mature consideration, and with the authority of the Crown; which, in point of fact, was the source of the authority of the Speaker of the House of Commons.

MR. HADFIELD said, he wished to inquire whether it would be necessary that the two hon. Members who had taken the oaths and their seats during Mr. Speaker's absence should be re-sworn?

SIR GEORGE GREY said, that if the House should agree to the Bill he proposed to bring in it would not be necessary for those hon. Members to be re-sworn. With regard to what had been said by the hon. Member for the University of Oxford (Sir W. Heathcote), he had to observe that the authority of the Crown had been given to the appointment of his hon. Friend the Chairman of Ways and Means, as Deputy Speaker, during the temporary absence of the Speaker.

METROPOLIS LOCAL MANAGEMENT BILL.
Order for Committee read.

House in Committee, commencing with Clause 48, which was agreed to, as were also Clauses 49 to 53 inclusive.

On Clause 54, requiring notice of the appointing a new Committee, as the evi-intention to build to be given to the vestry dence taken before the former Committee or district board, before commencing such would be found to contain all the informa- operations, tion requisite. The best mode would be for the right hon. Baronet to act on his own authority, and to introduce a clause in the Bill which he was about to bring in providing against such difficulties as this for the future.

MR. FITZROY said, he did not think it would be convenient, on a Bill relating to the relief of certain Members from penalties to which they might have subjected

SIR BENJAMIN HALL said, he proposed that the blank in the clause should be filled up with the word " to make the notice one of seven days.

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MR. CUBITT said, from his experience of building operations he was convinced that a notice of seven days would involve great delay and practical inconvenience to builders in opening the ground to lay their [foundations. The existing Act regulating

building in the metropolis only required forty-eight hours' notice to be given, and that period, he considered, would also be amply sufficient for the purposes of the Bill. An extended notice of seven days was quite unprecedented in such cases.

MR. HENLEY said, he considered that forty-eight hours' notice would be quite sufficient in this case if the vestries had a proper staff of officers, and such a map of the levels of the different districts as they ought to possess prepared beforehand.

SIR JOHN SHELLEY said, he thought two days would be inadequate for the surveyor to inspect and make his report, and then for the board to sanction his recommendation.

SIR BENJAMIN HALL said, that the notice provided by the City Sewers Act was one of fourteen days, and he had already reduced that notice by one-half. However, he would further consider the point; and if the notice could be fixed consistently with the public interests below seven days, he would have no objection to insert words to that effect.

had no objection to upset all the constituted authorities of the metropolis provided something better could be substituted; but that something ought to be stated. He objected to the little consideration shown to the owners of property, and on that ground he would suggest that the clause should be postponed until some statement was made.

SIR BENJAMIN HALL said, he would consider, before the Bill was passed, how far it was desirable to repeal the local Acts.

VISCOUNT EBRINGTON said, he thought it advisable that the clause should be postponed, inasmuch as it was desirable to get rid of the conflicting terms of the local Acts as soon as possible.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 67 to 69 inclusive were then agreed to.

SIR BENJAMIN HALL said, he did not propose to proceed any further with the Committee that day, but as the measure was one of very great importance, and expedition in its passing was most desirable, especially with reference to the present advanced season, he trusted that the House would allow him to go on with the remaining clauses at a morning sitting to-morrow.

MR. HENLEY said, that, according to the clause as it stood, any house, building, or drain commenced without the specific authority of the vestry or district board would be liable to be pulled down. Surely there should be a limit to the time within MR. HENLEY said, he understood that which such authority should be given. morning sittings had already been appointSIR BENJAMIN HALL said, he pro-ed for Thursday and Friday next, and posed to introduce words requiring the authority of the vestry or district board to be given within a certain prescribed period.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

although it was no doubt desirable that this measure should be proceeded with without delay, nevertheless, it was to be remembered that there were limits to human endurance, and flesh and blood could not

On Clause 66, which relates to the va- sit there day after day from twelve o'clock rious powers given under local Acts,

SIR BENJAMIN HALL said, that nothing could be more easy than to repeal all the local Acts, but there were some of them which it might be desirable to continue. He, therefore, hoped that the Committee would agree to the clause as it stood. It proposed merely to transfer the powers of the different Acts to the new boards. He looked upon this Bill as the commencement of good legislation for the metropolis, and he thought it would be better to postpone the consideration of the local Acts until they had the opinions of the representatives of the different boards on the subject. If the clause was passed, he had no doubt that the time was not far distant when there would be some measure brought in to deal with these local Acts.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, he

at noon till two in the morning.

House resumed; Committee report progress.

RETIREMENT OF OFFICERS IN THE
EAST INDIA COMPANY'S SERVICE-
QUESTION.

MR. CRAUFURD said, he would beg to ask the right hon. the President of the Board of Control, whether his attention had been called to the recent case of Græme v. Wroughton, in which the Court of Exchequer has decided that the practice of subscribing a sum of money to induce officers in the East India Company's army to retire is illegal, and a misdemeanor; and, if so, whether he intends to take any steps to remedy the effects of such a decision. The facts of the case were, that on an occasion of the officers of a regiment,

to which Lieutenant Wroughton belonged, being called on to contribute their quota to purchasing one of the majors out, that gentleman declined on account of his inability to find the means, when Captain Græme lent him the sum, 4,000 rupees, on his bond. Mr. Wroughton had since himself been purchased out of the regiment, receiving 30,000 rupees, on which Captain Græme sued him on his bond, and he defended the action on the ground of illegality of the transaction, and the Court had decided in his favour.

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CAPTAIN LEICESTER VERNON said, that, referring to the present arrangement to obtain officers for the Royal Artillery and the Royal Engineers from civil colleges and public seminaries, he would beg to ask the hon. Clerk of the Ordnance, whether it was the intention of Government to take such cadets from the Military Colleges of Sandhurst and Addiscombe

MR. VERNON SMITH said, his attention had not been officially directed to the case in question. He had read the account of it in the papers, and he must say he did not understand the grounds of the decision. There was no doubt that the practice in question, and which had been declared illegal, did exist to a certain ex-(the latter with the permission of the Hotent, and, under proper regulations, he did not think it was prejudicial to the service. He would, however, consider the subject in conjunction with the Court of Directors, with a view to its being placed on some more certain footing.

AUSTRALIAN POSTAL COMMUNICATION

-QUESTION.

LORD NAAS said, he begged to inquire of the hon. Under Secretary for the Treasury what steps have been taken to restore to the inhabitants of the Australian colonies the advantages of steam postal communication.

MR. WILSON said, the state of the Australian postal communication was at present very unsatisfactory. Previous to last November arrangements had been made by which a monthly mail was sent by way of Singapore, and another was sent round the Cape. In consequence of the steamer belonging to the Peninsular and Oriental Company having been disabled, the service by way of Singapore had been stopped, and the other vessels of the Company being engaged in the Crimea, they were unable to supply another. The Screw Company which carried the mails by the Cape had been applied to, and a proposal had been made by the Postmaster General and the Treasury for a monthly communication overland by way of Singapore, and that it should be performed, if possible, by the Peninsular and Oriental Company. The Admiralty had called on the Company for a contract for the service, and the Company some months ago communicated with the colony on the subject, but had not yet

nourable East India Company) as may on examination be found to be competent, seeing that such cadets are already militarily educated, that formerly it was considered essential that Woolwich cadets should first enter at Marlow, and that by giving commissions to officers volunteering from the militia, the line would be more than compensated for the loss of any ca dets taken from Sandhurst to enter into the two scientific corps?

MR. MONSELL said, it was not the intention of the Government to select any cadets from the colleges at Sandhurst or Addiscombe. The cadetships to be given away in July would be given after the examination which had been appointed by the Secretary of State. It was competent for the gentlemen in these colleges to compete for the cadetships, and if their examination should be satisfactory, no doubt their claims would be fully considered.

AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS-QUESTION,

LORD WILLIAM GRAHAM said, he wished to ask the Vice President of the Board of Trade whether Government intend to continue the collection of agricultural statistics in England, and, if so, whether it is intended to appoint the clerks of Unions as permanent collectors at a stated and liberal salary; and, whether it is intended to introduce any compulsory measure for making a certain class of returns imperative?

MR. BOUVERIE said, the English returns generally were not satisfactory. With the exception of the West Riding of York

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