and ratified at those distant graves which | interest which this country had, indepenliberty and justice shall revere for ever. dently of the duty to maintain an ally, was, that through the sides of Turkey its own liberties and interests were attacked. He was greatly astonished at the arguments of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone). The real question was, that there was a great and obvious danger to ward off by entering into war irrespective of the position of Turkey, but it did not follow because the country had entered into a war on these several grounds, the status quo was to be the only condition of peace. It would depend on the course of the war to determine what the allied powers were entitled to ask or to accept. If that was not the case wars must go on for ever, so long as one side was victorious and the other greatly depressed. The right hon. Gentleman said the terms ought not to be increased as the war went on, but if he (the Lord Advocate) was not much mistaken the Government of Lord Aberdeen had increased those terms as the war progressed. It was plain that Russia had lost every point which she had gained. Whatever had been the misfortunes and calamities of this country, Russia had certainly gained nothing, and therefore when they came to settle the basis of the negotiations, Russia was not entitled to increase her terms. Now he would inquire, what are those terms? The main matter was the preponderance of Russia in the Black Sea; and it appeared to him that the proposition made by the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) was an important security. He should say that unquestionably the result of the military operations, even before the recent successes, was not such as to induce the allies to reduce their terms. From the campaign on the Danube, where Omar Pacha rolled back the tide of Russian war, up to the present time, Russia had gained nothing, and, therefore, when the conditions of peace came to be discussed Russia was not in a position to say that she was entitled to more favourable terms than those formerly offered. The proposition of the allies in reference to the third point appeared to him to offer an important security for the object desired; for it was not merely that the number of the Russian ships should be limited in the Black Sea, but that Russia should come under the jurisdiction of the States of Europe on the question of her preponderance in the Black Sea; and any one of those States would be justified in immediately resorting to

THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he must appeal to the consideration of the House to bear with him while he endeavoured to reply to the eloquent address they had just heard, at the same time he desired to say that he entirely concurred in almost every word that had fallen from the hon. Baronet. He thought the House and the country were indebted to the hon. Baronet for the powerful, manly, and open way in which he had spoken upon this great question; for, unlike, other speeches which had proceeded from the Opposition, that of the hon. Baronet contained not only a clear statement of what he did not think, but also of what his own opinions really were, and what his own course would be. It had been said that the country had drifted into the war; but he did not think it was truly said, for he was much mistaken if the people of this country did not know well why they had entered into the war, and that they were not disposed to desist from it until the object of the war had been obtained. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester said that the war had been charged to the peace party. The right hon. Gentleman denied that charge, and ascribed the war to supposed impossibility of an alliance between France and England and the periodical writings of the day. He (the Lord Advocate) did not doubt with the right hon. Gentleman that the Emperor of Russia believed it was most improbable that France and England would come into an alliance, and that he was also encouraged by the tone of the periodical press, but it seemed to escape the right hon. Gentleman that whilst he said these two elements entered into the causes of the war, he confessed what he was so anxious to deny, that the Emperor of Russia was waiting for his opportunity. He believed that the hon. Baronet opposite (Sir B. Lytton) had given some wholesome and salutary advice to the right hon. Gentleman and his Friends, for if it could not be doubted that the improbability of an alliance with France and the tone of the periodical press had encouraged the Emperor of Russia to go to war, the names of those who were now found enlisted on the side of peace would encourage him much more to persevere in it. He thought that the origin of the war had been mis-stated by some hon. Gentlemen. No doubt the position of Turkey as regarded the rest of Europe was the main ground, but the real

hostilities upon a breach of the condition | to him that this was the real question on imposed. The proposition of Russia, whe- which the opinion of the House was asked ther for shutting or keeping open the whether the conferences were to proDardanelles, offered but little security for ceed, or, as it was understood, to be closed Turkey, for Russia would be at liberty to immediately-was this, had the best means maintain a large fleet in the Black Sea; been employed by the Government to estaand, at the moment when Turkey might blish the equilibrium, and put an end to desire the aid of her allies, the fleets of the preponderance of Russia in the Black those Powers might be at a distance, or Sea. A more important question, or one France and England might, unfortunately, more deserving the consideration of the be at war. Such a condition would leave House of Commons could not well be conRussia to exercise her influence, not only ceived. When the noble Lord at the head in Europe, but over the whole of central of the Government announced before the Asia, and the allies would find themselves recess, that he intended to support the a great deal worse at the end of the war first part of the Motion of the hon. Memthan at the beginning. Hon. Gentlemen ber for Kidderminster, he (Mr. Disraeli) opposite appeared to be disappointed at told the noble Lord that he must be prethe declaration made by his noble Friend pared for considerable debates in conse(Lord Palmerston) the other night. He quence of that declaration. Not only was knew not what right they had to say that the whole question of the policy of Governthat declaration was extorted from his ment involved in the discussion, but much noble Friend. His noble Friend had been more than that-the future means by which subjected to a series of questions during peace was to be obtained. He might also the negotiations neither usual nor beneficial take that opportunity of answering the reto the interests of the country, and he was marks of the right hon. and learned Lord entitled to refuse any explanations whilst Advocate, and perhaps he might be able his duty required him to do so; and when to show him that the subject was of much his duty required that of him no longer, wider character than he seemed to suphe was right in taking the opportunity of pose. The right hon. and learned Lord giving those explanations. Under these imagined, acting under the instructions of circumstances, whatever amendment was the Government, that there were no other adopted, neither the Emperor of Russia means by which the preponderance of Rusnor any other Power in Europe, looking sia could be possibly checked and conat the tone of the debate, could doubt trolled. He (Mr. Disraeli) thought, howwhat the solemn opinion of the country over, that it was the duty of the House of was. The opinion of the country and the Commons to enter fully and completely opinion of that House, he was sure, was into this discussion; that the first part of that the country had entered into the war the Amendment of the hon. Member for on just grounds, and that they were deter- Kidderminster was the real business before mined not to desist from that war until them; and that all the rest was "leather they had brought it to an honourable and and prunella." The noble Lord, theresatisfactory termination. fore, must not suppose that they could proceed to an early division upon a subject on which it appeared to him the discussion had only commenced.

MR. COBDEN moved the adjournment of the debate.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, he trusted that the House would allow this Amendment to be disposed of. He considered that the Amendment on which the hon. Member would wish to state his sentiments, was the Amendment of the hon. Member for the University of Oxford (Sir W. Heathcote).

MR. COBDEN said, he must beg the noble Lord's pardon, but it was on this Amendment that he wished to state his sentiments.

MR. DISRAELI said, he hoped that there would be no difference of opinion on this important point. There were several Amendments on the paper, but it appeared

Debate adjourned.

House adjourned at a quarter before One o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS,
Tuesday, June 5, 1855.

MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1a Edinburgh Lands.
Reported.-Ecclesiastical Property (Ireland).
3a Newspaper Stamp Duties.

THE "MEDWAY" TRANSPORT

QUESTION.

LORD PANMURE, in reference to the question which the noble Earl opposite

-

(the Earl of Ellenborough) had put yester-I was agreed to between Her Majesty and day on the subject of the fittings of the the Sultan for the employment of a numMedway, wished to bring before the House, ber of Turkish troops in the British serin addition to what he had stated yester- vice, and he thought he was not considered day, the report of an officer (Captain Con- premature in asking the noble Lord opponell) who had been sent from Woolwich to site, on the 5th of June, what progress Southampton to examine the condition of had been made in the formation of this the vessel; that report, dated the 5th of body of troops. If they were to believe May, was as followswhat they read in the newspapers-and certainly what he had read there was confirmed by what he had read in a letter from one of the officers engaged in that force no progress whatever had been made, a fortnight ago, in placing any number of Turkish troops under the command of the officers who had been sent out. Those officers were extremely dissatisfied at the position in which they stood, and were remaining at Constantinople without anything to do, although they were receiving no very great consolation from the pay of a rank superior to that which they had previously held. There could be no battery. I beg most humbly to suggest that an officer with a strong party of men should proceed fault, so far as he could see, on the part of down to Southampton with the harness and guns the noble Lord opposite (Lord Panmure), the day before the horses are embarked, which who had performed his duty in sending will enable them to store everything before ship-out officers; but the fault, if fault there ping the horses."

"In compliance with your instructions, I yesterday visited the Royal Mail steamship Medway, at Southampton. I have to report that she has stable room for 220 horses; the boxes are well and securely built, and the ventilation is admirable; 115 of the horses are boxed on the lower deck, which is nearly seven feet high, and thoroughly ventilated; the rest are on the spar deck. The main deck is entirely set apart for the use of the men, and can berth 220. The only place for stowage of harness, guns, carriages, &c., is the forehold, and there is not more room than necessary to hold the harness vats, six guns and carriages, and six waggons. If thirty of the horseboxes in the fore part of the vessel were taken away there would be ample room for all the carriages of the

was, was either with the diplomatic auIt would appear, as he had stated yester-thorities, who have not urged the Turkish day, that the accident to the Medway was only the consequence of a severe storm she encountered in the Bay of Biscay, and not in any way connected with the boxing of the horses.

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH said, he thought, from the sketch he had seen, that there was some defect in the fittings, and suggested that, in all cases, means should be taken to secure the boxes from sliding from one side of the deck to the other. He believed no blame attached to the authorities, but he would suggest that the noble Lord should himself take the trouble to go down to the ports of embarkation to see that the transport arrangements were properly made, for it frequently happened that the eye of a civilian discovered defects which did not occur by scientific gentlemen who had charge of the preparations.

LORD PANMURE said, that no doubt the suggestion of the noble Earl might be useful, but he feared, from the pressure of other important business, he should not be able to act upon it.

THE TURKISH CONTINGENT.

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH said, their Lordships would probably recollect that on the 3rd of February a Convention

Government, as they ought to have done, to place troops at the disposal of the officers who had been sent out, or it might have rested with our enlightened ally the Sultan, who might not have seen the present and future advantage which might result to Turkey from the establishment of such a corps. He had always taken the greatest interest in this subject, believing it to be one of the utmost possible importance, not only to the present but to the future advantage of Turkey; and it would be satisfactory to him if the noble Lord would give their Lordships an assurance that matters were in train for the formation of this force, and that, although no great progress had been reported, some hope existed that, at no distant period, the officers who had been sent out would find men to command.

LORD PANMURE said, he could assure the noble Earl that he very much regretted the delay which had taken place in the formation of the Turkish contingent, a corps which he agreed with the noble Earl would confer immense benefits upon Turkey. It is true, as stated by the noble Earl, that the convention was entered into on the 3rd of February-the ratifications were exchanged on the 12th of Marchand by the 11th of April Her Majesty's

Government had fulfilled their part of the might be necessary to place disciplined engagement, for on that day General troops, either to form a barrier against Vivian, the officer selected to command the enemy or to garrison important forthe contingent, arrived at Constantinople tresses. with, though not a complete, at all events THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH said, a sufficient staff of officers to undertake the that if it were determined to send half command of a considerable body of men. of the officers to Varna, there to form and He found, on his arrival, that no men were discipline a moiety of the contingent, he forthcoming for him to command; but the would venture humbly to suggest that the reason of that was not to be discovered other half should be sent to Erzeroum, either in the disposition of the Turkish there to form and discipline the remainder Government to find troops or in the neglect of the force. It was of the utmost imof the diplomatic authorities to make pro-portance that both officers and men should per representations to the Sultan on the be placed where they were most wantsubject. It arose very much from the fact ed. He believed, from communications that many of the Turkish troops concen- he had had with many officers, that they trated at Constantinople, and from whom would, in raising a force to be formed it was anticipated that the contingent under British discipline, much rather begin would be drawn, had been suddenly called with raw recruits than to take Turkish by Omar Pacha to the seat of war, and troops, who would have to unlearn a great that there was not a sufficient number left deal before they could learn anything from to place under the direction of the Bri- their new commanders. tish officers. The Turkish Government at THE EARL OF HARDWICKE said, he once offered to detach from the army under could not allow the conversation to drop Omar Pacha a body of troops to form the without expressing the hope that the Sulcontingent at Constantinople; but Her tan might derive great benefit from the inMajesty's Government very properly re- struction of his troops by English officers, plied that it would not be advisable to and he was therefore ready to support any weaken the force immediately at the seat plan for assisting the Sultan in improving of war by withdrawing from Omar Pacha the discipline of his forces and in affording any of his seasoned troops. It was then them instruction in the art of war; but if proposed, and the proposal was now in the Turkish contingent were to be consicourse of being carried out, that troops to dered as a mere increase of the mercenary form the contingent should be withdrawn force in the pay of England, and if it were from the army on the Danube. Omar intended that England should go on raising Pacha himself suggested that arrange- mercenary forces from time to time for the ment, and promised to give it his support; purposes either of attack or defence, he and as soon as they could command trans- could only say that anything more degradports either to bring the troops from Varna ing to the character of the country, or to Constantinople, or, if it were thought tending more to the ultimate ruin of its more advisable, to remove General Vivian power and influence, could not possibly be and his staff to Varna, there to form a conceived. If England, with the vast and portion-for it would be only a portion-of rapidly increasing population which it now the contingent, there would be no longer possessed, was unable to fight its own any delay in proceeding with the formation battles with its own men, he could not look of at least half the number of men which forward to the future with anything but a the Sultan had agreed to supply. With feeling of apprehension and dismay; and regard to the other moiety, it had not he would strongly urge upon Her Majesty's been determined what proportion of them Government the necessity of calling out should consist of seasoned troops, and the resources of the country at the present what proportion-he hoped a small one-time, in order that we might not assume, of men raised for the first time; but he could assure their Lordships that Her Majesty's Government were as anxious as they possibly could be to complete the force, which they believed would prove a great future advantage to the Sultan, and likewise of immense present benefit to the allies themselves, not only at the seat of war, but at various other points where it

in the eyes of foreign nations, the position of a second-rate Power as compared with our great ally, France. He should like to see an increase of the army vigorously set about by means of large bounties; or, if that were insufficient to secure the requisite force, by means of a resort to those devices which were perfectly constitutional. In the last war, with a much smaller popu

lation than it now had, England stood in the position of a first-rate military Power, and he saw no reason why she should allow herself to be degraded from that position now. He was one of those who believed that we were only just at the commencement of a great and protracted war, and any measures that might encourage the idea that we were compelled to employ mercenary forces and to subsidise the troops of other countries, would materially affect the position of England in the eyes of her allies and of the world.

Swiss, or none more faithful to those whom they served, and it would be impossible for any person to stand up and declare-he was sure the noble Earl, who had met those foreigners to whom he was supposed to allude offensively as enemies, and who knew their valour, would be the very last to do so-that it would be a degradation to stand shoulder by shoulder with such troops. The same might be said of the Germans and of the troops of other countries with whom we had already fought as allies; and, therefore, he thought the noble Earl had some reason to complain of the noble Baron opposite, because while his observations referred to the exertions made by England herself, as compared with her efforts during the last war, the noble Baron had misrepresented them as meaning something offensive to foreign countries.

LORD PANMURE said, he did not intend to prolong the discussion, but he must protest against the observations of the noble Earl with reference to the employment of foreign troops in the present war. He had been engaged in negotiating for the services of such troops, and he could tell their Lordships that he considered it no degradation whatever to England to accept the assistance of gallant men, either of Switzerland or Germany, in a just and honourable cause. He would further add, that in consequence of reflections such as those which their Lordships had just heard, he had found the greatest difficulty in inducing foreigners to enter into our service. He had fortunately succeeded in removing some of those difficulties, and he did trust that no further obstacles would be thrown in his way by such observations as those of the noble Earl, which were calcu- EARL GRANVILLE said, he though it lated to serve no useful purpose, but, on would have been much better if the noble the contrary, had a very injurious effect Earl had left the matter as it had been abroad, by representing the services of fo- explained by his noble Friend the late Foreigners as mercenary, and such as Eng-reign Secretary (the Earl of Malmesbury), land could not employ with honour.

THE EARL OF MALMESBURY did not think the noble Baron quite understood the bearing of the observations of the noble Earl beside him. There was nothing in the speech of the noble Earl which any foreign country could consider as offensive. What the noble Earl meant to say was, that the amount of military force now raised from the population of England was not such as might be expected from so great a country, and that it was a degradation to us, considering how our population had increased since the last war, that we should be obliged to the use of foreign bayonets. The noble Earl made no reflection whatever upon foreign troops, nor did he say more than every Englishman had a right to say when he thought his country ought to do more than she had done. They all knew that there were no braver men on the face of the earth than the

THE EARL OF HARDWICKE said, he was not aware that he had said anything that could be considered offensive by any foreign country. All he had said was, that he thought it disgraceful that this country should be forced to subsidise armies or hire mercenaries. He was not aware that Her Majesty's Government had done either. All they had done at present was to league themselves with allies in the field. He should like to know after the observations of the noble Baron, whether or not they had subsidised any troops.

whose statement must have given satisfaction to their Lordships, showing, as it did, that he differed entirely from what must be regarded as the impression produced by the observations of the noble Earl who first spoke. He was surprised to find that the noble Earl (the Earl of Hardwicke) objected to what not one single individual had ever objected to before, namely, that in a war in which Turkish interests were primarily and most deeply involved, we should give to the Sultan the undoubted advantage of our greater skill and larger pecuniary means in forming and training a force for the defence of his dominions. The effect of his remarks, however, had been explained away in a most satisfactory manner by the late Secretary for Foreign Affairs, who had spoken of the services of foreign troops in terms which could not fail to produce a good impression abroad as well as at home.