Sweden, nor any other Power, could have held up a finger against Russia in the Baltic. In Germany she has connected herself with many of the smaller Princes by marriage. Many of the Princes of Germany, I am sorry to say, live in great fear of what they think is the revolutionary disposition of their subjects, and they rely upon their armed forces for protection. But what are those armed forces? The officers of those forces are seduced and corrupted by the Russian Court. Rewards, orders, and distinctions are distributed amongst them-even the receipt of money to pay debts will be accepted by them, and that money is liberally given by the Russian Court; so that Germany, which ought to be the seat of independenceGermany, which should stand forward for the protection of Europe against Russiahas been for years undermined in its vital strength and independence by Russian arts and Russian means.

man well acquainted with the whole subject, had some time before said, "I think the time is come when Turkey's position must be entirely changed. Either she will fall into a state of total dependence upon Russia, or she must get rid of those manacles and shackles with which for years past she has been fettered." We had to choose, then, between leaving her completely under the sway of Russia as a subject, or endeavouring to raise her to something higher. As I have already stated, we chose the latter part of the alternative, and it became us therefore first to consider the immediate danger. The immediate danger was warded off. The gallant defence of Silistria is still remembered with pride; but had it not been for the presence of the allied forces, it would have been renewed in the same manner that the struggle of 1828 was renewed in 1829, and the Russian forces would have been at the Balkan. But the presence of the allied forces prevented that danger, and the Russians retired across the Danube. Austria then said that unless the Princi

Well, Sir, I have not hitherto spoken of the immediate danger with which we have had to deal. The immediate danger with which we have had to deal was this-palities were evacuated she should declare that after a long course of violence and aggression, Russia had signed a treaty at Adrianople which gave her new powers, and confirmed many of the old. The dangers arising from that treaty to Turkey are admirably pointed out in the despatch of Lord Aberdeen; but neither Lord Aberdeen nor the Duke of Wellington, who was at the head of the Ministry at the time, thought it right to go to war on account of those dangers. I believe they acted wisely in so abstaining. But now that we are at war we are not to forget the lesson Lord Aberdeen gave, or keep out of sight the dangers that were pointed out in that despatch. Russia had therefore great means of influence in Turkeysuch means of influence that, I believe, if she had been wise and prudent, it was quite sufficient to enable her to gain a permanent control over the councils of the Sultan. But in an hour of imprudenceI will not say more of the great Sovereign that ruled her he is dead, and the time for severe comment is passed by-she insisted upon what Turkey thought a degradation; she made an aggression, and Turkey resolved to resist, and judging from the offers of sympathy and support she had received from France and Great Britain that she would be supported in the struggle, she had recourse to arms in her defence. Lord Stratford de Redcliffe, a

war with Russia, and upon her forces being assembled Russia evacuated them. Now, it was because these Principalities were placed under the safeguard of Austria, because any attempt to invade Turkey or to cross the Balkan and reach Constantinople was thus prevented, that we felt ourselves enabled to send to the Crimea the expedition which, like my right hon. Friend (Mr. Gladstone), I still think we were right in sending, but the discussion of which I will, like him, reserve for some future occasion. There is, however, this fact, that in consequence of the pressure at Sebastopol the Russian fleet has been sunk by the Russians themselves; it is no longer the eighteen or nineteen sail of the line that menaced Constantinople and were the constant terror of the Sultan's Government. The question then upon the third point was this, how we could diminish the power of Russia and put an end to her preponderance in the Black Sea. I am not at all ashamed of the manner in which I agreed with Count Buol to invite the Russian Plenipotentiaries to take what is termed the initiative of the proposition for effecting that object. Count Buol represented to us that it might be hurtful to the dignity of Russia to have terms imposed upon her for the limitation of her power in the Black Sea; but that in consideration of the security of Europe she might make

a proposition to that effect to Turkey; and he asked us, the Plenipotentiaries of France and England, not to bring forward our propositions until he had made the proposal. He made the proposal, and I followed it up answering for England, and not for Russia, as the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) supposes with these words

structed to propose that there should be only a limited force of each nation in the Black Sea, and that the rule of closing the Bosphorus should be maintained, so that there should be no danger to Russia from that quarter. I hear it said that if the force of Russia in the Black Sea were limited, the fleets of England and France might come in at any time and insult the coasts of Russia in the Black Sea. How would she be worse off then than she has been in the present war, when we have seen that her fleet has been no security at all? What has been the use of the eighteen or nineteen sail of the line which Russia

"In the eyes of England and of her allies, the best and only admissible conditions of peace would be those which, being most in harmony with the honour of Russia, should at the same time be sufficient for the security of Europe, and for preventing the return of complications such as that the settlement of which is now in ques-possessed at Sebastopol? They cannot

tion."

be restored for some years, and when they I wish to ask, provided the security of are restored what security can Russia have Europe was attained and the return of greater than that which she had two years what is called a complication, what is in ago? The fact was that they were no fact dreadful war, was prevented, was it security at all, for no sooner have the fleets not desirable that the terms should be com- of England and France appeared in the patible with the honour of Russia, and Black Sea than her ships have skulked should be such as to make her satisfied into Sebastopol, and several of them have with the arrangement? Therefore I am been destroyed. I told one of those perquite willing to abide, and I believe my sons to whom I have alluded, whose name colleagues are ready to abide by that de- I must not mention, that we intended to claration which I then made. The answer propose the limitation of the Russian fleet, to that proposition of Count Buol was a but that I was told Russia would object to considerable time in arriving-eighteen it. He said, "If that is so, it is a proof days elapsed before it reached the confer- that she means aggression.' I thought ence, and I believe that the Russian Go- that observation perfectly just. I cannot vernment were about a week in delibera- conceive why Russia should hesitate to tion, between the time of receiving the make peace in order that she may have proposition and adopting their answer. eighteen or twenty sail of the line at That answer was to the effect that the Sebastopol, unless she_meditates some Russian Plenipotentiaries were desired not future aggression upon Turkey; and that to make any propositions; and we are told I now believe, still more than I did last in the Russian circular just issued that year, still more than I did before I went to that was in conformity with the instruc- Vienna, to be in the contemplation of Rustions which had been given by the Em-sia. The Russian point of view is that peror Nicholas. I think that was a very Turkey cannot endure, that she must unwise decision. I have always understood decay, and that her fall cannot be long dethat Russians of great sagacity and expe- layed. This view was borrowed from the rience in public affairs always considered late Emperor, whose abilities and powers that the Emperor Nicholas paid too much naturally made him an object of veneration attention to his marine, and that his fleets to the Russians. They believe that when at Sebastopol and Cronstadt, though they Turkey breaks up, England and France might make a parade in time of peace, will hasten to seize Constantinople, and would not be able to compete with those thus menace her empire, and thus feel it of the maritime Powers in time of war. necessary to be beforehand with these I believe that to be a very sound opinion, Powers, and make herself mistress of that and therefore I thought it possible that commanding position. Put it, however, they would have made this concession, which way you will-as an act either of thus giving up something the cession of aggression or of self-defence--it comes to which would not really diminish the power the same thing, that it is the intention of Russia as a great Power-though it of Russia at some future time-and, it would diminish her power in the Black may be, in no remote future-to possess Sea-and that the Russian Plenipoten- herself of Constantinople. Now, Sir, betiaries might have said that they were in-lieving that to be the case, are the Govern

covered. They were felt at the breaking out of the war. My noble Friend proposes to place all the civil branches of the army under the superintendence of a single Secretary of State. I believe that having one man's eye to watch and one man's hands to guide will lead to the improved working of the whole machinery of the department, and we shall be in a way to remedy the evils which have been complained of. But, as to other improvements, I own I do not find-although much may be said that there is any special accusations as to other departments. I do not find, with regard to the Finance, with regard to the Home Department, or with regard to that department over which I have the honour to

tria has played in not taking a share of the spoils of Turkey, which Russia had confidently expected, and in joining us in all measures and proposals we have thought necessary, will never be forgiven by Rus. sia; and, therefore, that her only safety is in building up such alliances as shall secure Turkey and Europe against the aggression of Russia. Sir, for that reason I shall be ready to vote against the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire. This, Sir, is a great national question-perhaps the greatest national question that has ever engaged the counsels of the House or called forth the resources of the country-and yet the right hon. Gentleman seeks to degrade it into not merely a party question-preside, that there has been any complaint for a party question may be a very great made of inefficiency. I believe, therefore, question-but into a very limited and nar- the right hon. Gentleman, while he has row party question with respect to parti- not well founded his proposal as regards cular conduct at a particular moment, and the particular question, has not better particular language held in debates in this founded it with regard to the remedy he House. I never knew a great national proposes for what he calls general disgust. question-perhaps one of the greatest na- I am convinced the party which sits oppotional questions which has ever been de- site would not gain in credit by having it bated in this House-which has ever en- said, as it would surely be said, that, on gaged the councils of this House-which a great crisis of the fortunes of the counhas ever called for the exercise of the arms try, the great Conservative party, which of this country-and probably so great a for upwards of a year had with the greatest question never has been so degraded as patriotism come forward in support of the this has been by the language of the right Crown and to maintain the honour of the hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentle- country by every vote it was in their power man alluded to the mistrust which he says to give-after little more than a year had prevails in the present Government. I do tired of the exercise of that virtue, and not deny-I wish I could deny-that there sought an opportunity for slipping into is great foundation for his observation. But office in place of those who now fill the I do not believe any cure will be found in offices; and, having lost an occasion which the substitution of the right hon. Gentle- seemed to them to be an inviting one, comman for my noble Friend and those who ing from what is termed an independent sit on this side of the House. I do not Member, comes forward with a Motion of believe that mistrust will be removed, or their own to gain the prize for which they that general satisfaction and confidence will were so anxious. I believe the right hon. take the place of uneasiness and anxiety Gentleman, and those who act with him, by such a change. I hear much said of would gain no credit by such a step. Whatadministrative reform, and I think it an ever may be the division in this House, I object in itself most desirable. But I want think this has been a false move on the to know why it should be presumed that part of the hon. Gentleman opposite. If there are other men, either those who are he can censure any act of ours, if he can well known on the opposite side of the put his finger on any one act of the GoHouse, or some others who are totally un-vernment, and censure that act, of course known, who would carry out administrative reform better than those who are at present in the possession of power? I believe that we can hardly have a better measure than that which has been proposed by my noble Friend Lord Panmure on the subject of reform in the army departments. It is with respect to the army department establishment that defects have been dis

VOL. CXXXVIII. [THIRD SERIES.]

we are open to that censure-liable to any criticism which the House may think fit to make; but to bring forward vague words merely to catch up what seems to be a feeling of the moment, and which may not last above a day or two, to be so impatient as not to wait even over the Whitsuntide holidays to know if negotiations are concluded, is a falling off in that patriotism

2 N

MR. WHITESIDE moved the adjournment of the debate,

The House adjourned at a quarter before Two o'clock.

and virtue which I must say hon. Gentle- | one, believed that the Church and State men opposite have hitherto evinced, and I greatly profited by the relations existing think they will add nothing to their fame between them, and he believed that the or reputation by the course they are now Church was kept, in many instances, from taking. sectional feeling and sectional action by its connection with the State, and that the supremacy of the Crown exercised influences highly beneficial to the Church of the land as well as to the State of the land. Believing this himself, and yet seeing that the daily current of legislation tended to remove from the Church the support in every respect which it had hitherto received from the State, he thought it might not be uninstructive to consider that these two things were co-relative, and that if the State gave up all assistance and support to the Church it was not to be contended that the State could exercise the same authority as when supported by the Church.

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Friday, May 25, 1855.

MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1 Roman Catholic
Charities; Royal London Militia; Education
of Poor Children; Brighton Incorporation.
3a Registration of Births, &c. (Scotland).
ROYAL ASSENT.-Income Tax; Customs Duties;
Spirit, &c. Duties (Excise); Militia (Ireland);
Intestacy (Scotland); Affirmations (Scotland);
Alterations in Pleadings; Parliamentary Re-
presentation (Scotland) Act Amendment.

The right rev. Prelate said, that an Act had passed the Canadian Legislature, and had been accepted by the Parliament of this country, one clause of which would effect an entire separation between the Established Church and the State in Canada, and it was in consequence of the adoption of that Act that the Address for which he moved was agreed to by the two Chambers of the Canadian Legislature. The Address prayed that, inasmuch as the connection between Church and State had thus been declared to be dissolved, those accidents which had hitherto followed that connection might also be removed. If any answer had been returned to that Address he hoped it would be also communicated to their Lordships. He would only say, in moving for the Address, that he thought this was not an uninstructive movement to the people of this country also. Many people were apt to forget that the union between Church and State implied co-relatives to either-certain support from the State, and a certain renunciation by the Church, of what would properly be the natural liberties of the Church. He, for

EARL GRANVILLE said, there was no objection whatever on the part of the Government to produce the papers moved for by the right rev. Prelate. No answer had yet been sent-only a mere acknowledgment.

THE EARL OF DERBY said, he had listened with great satisfaction to the remarks of the right rev. Prelate, and he fully concurred with him in all he said as to the advantage of the connection of the Church with the State, as well as in the deduction that this Address would prove not uninstructive on that subject to people in this country. But he could not forget that it was to a measure to which that right rev. Prelate gave his most cordial supportthe Clergy Reserves Bill-that the present desire to separate Church and State in Canada was owing; that measure having given the Colonial Legislature full power and freedom to dissever the endowments of the Church in Canada. He (the Earl of Derby) was happy to feel himself free from all responsibility of the sanction of that measure, which was the first step in bringing about the separation between Church and State.

THE BISHOP OF OXFORD said, that any future notice he might take of the subject would, of course, depend upon the answer that might be returned to the Address. In reply to the courteous remark of the noble Earl, whose agreement with him (the Bishop of Oxford) on this occasion was to him a matter of great satisfac tion, he would point out to the House where, in his judgment, the noble Earl had misconceived what he (the Bishop of