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negative to the prefent refolutions. 'Therefore, that he might do it in the leaft offenfive manner, out of refpećt to the great character who introduced them, he should move the order of the day.

Mr. T. Pitt fupported the propofitions, on nearly the fame ground as his honourable friend, who moved them. Sir George Savile replied to what had been faid about the petitions afking for no fpecific remedy, and was proceeding to fpeak in favour of the motion, when, finding himself too weak to proceed, he fat down, to the great difappointment of the houfe.

Mr. Byng ftrenuously contended for reform. 'There were, he faid, two inftances of additional reprefentatives in the counties of Durham and Chefter, which was a fufficient precedent. The petition which he had prefented, from the Tower Hamlets, was as ftrong a proof as could be adduced in favour of the refolutions. The Eastern part of London, called the Tower Hamlets, paid 34,0col. land tax, and they were unreprefented in parliament. The county of Cornwall paid 20,000l. lefs, and yet fent 42

members.

Lord Mulgrave faid that every poffible precaution against corruption and undue influence had been already taken.

Lord North complimented Mr. Pitt on the candour, the moderation, the ingenuity, and eloquence with which he had introduced his motion. He had never liftened to any member with fo much care, and he had never been better paid for his attention. The honourable gentleman had exprefled the dread he felt, in touching fo venerable a fabric as the conflitution, though for the exprefs purpofe of amending it. That was the expreffion of found fenfe. The attempt was of the niceft and most delicate nature. It was to tamper with that fabric which for ages had stood the boaft of Britens, and the admiration of the world. And on what ground? Ought not an Englishman, who was bleffed with fo preeminent a form of government, to enquire on what ground he was going to

proceed, ere he ventured to innovate upon fuch a form? Had the right hon. gentleman who made the motion, or had any of thofe who fupported it, established any proof of the disorder. Much had been faid of the American war; he was ready, at all times, to acknowledge the hand which he had had in that war- (a loud cry of Hear him!)-By that cry, gentlemen feemed to think that he was going to make fome apology or confeffion; they were never more mistaken. Let guilt confefs and apologize. He knew none, but would be ready to vindicate his conduct, whenever gentlemen thought fit to attack it. An honourable member had defcribed the crown, by. virtue of its great influence, as keeping a wicked miniftry in their offices, contrary to the fenfe of the people; and he had defcribed the fame crown, as itfelf encroached on, ftripped of its influence, and led into captivity. How two fuch jarring defcriptions could be reconciled it was not in his power to conceive. To remedy thefe fuppofed grievances, one hundred knights, in addition to the county members, were demanded; but he would fay, as he trufted the majority would, No, not fifty!"-" What! not fifty?"-" No, not one." not one." The favourers of this meafure, unable to adduce any folid reafons in fupport of it, were fruitful in imaginary ones. The American war was laid at the door of a battered conftitution. As they fuggefted, it was the war of the crown, contrary to the wishes of the people. He denied it. It was the war of parliament; it was the war of the people. Could the influence of the crown have produced fuch great majorities in that Houfe as went almolt to produce unanimity; or could it have produced the almoft unanimous approbation beftowed on it without doors. Nor did it ever ceafe to be popular, until a feries of unparalleled difafters caufed the people to call out as loudly for peace, as they had formerly done for war. But what was the weight of the petitions themselves? After many months given to the people to ponder well upon their grievances, only fourteen out of eighty-two counties

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had petitioned. And how were thefe petitions figned? By infinitely the minority of each county. That from the county of York contained only 9000 names. One purporting to be the petition of the county of Somerfet contained but 601 names, and another, from the county of Suffolk, was figned only by the fheriff! Upon the whole, there were not more than 20,000 names to all the petitions, and from this comparatively fmall number, they were to collect the fenfe of the people of England!-To the paucity of the fubfcribers, he would add the manner in which the petitions had been obtained. The affizes were held twice every year, the feffions four times. Had the fenfe of the people been collected on thefe occafions, when the inhabitants of each county met in the most fair and indifcriminate manner?

His lordship then requested the indulgence of the Houfe, while he proceeded to fay a few words of himfelf, as he conceived it would afford a further argument against the meafure they were preffed to adopt. "I will not affect (faid he) to think that the infinuation thrown out refpecting bad minifters being continued in office, against the voice of the people, is not levelled at me, but multum abludit imago. I was not, when I was honoured with office, a minifter of chance, or a creature of whom parliament had no experience. I was found among you; I had been long known to you. In confequence, I obtained your fupport; when that fupport was withdrawn, I ceafed to be a minifter. I was the creature of parliament in my rife; when I fell, I was its victim. I have been the creature of your opinion and your power, and the hiftory of my political life is a proof that will overturn a thousand wild affertions, that there is a corrupt influence in the crown, which destroys the independence of this Houfe. Does my history fhew the undue influence of the crown? Is it not, on the contrary, the ftrongest proof of the potent efficacy of the public voice? lf, then, that voice is fo powerful, as to remove whatever may be difpleafing to the opinions of

the country, what need is there of this paraded reformation?"

When a remedy was fought for a difeafe he knew not what when the puny voice of a few difcontented people broke in upon the tranquillity and reverend filence of the vaft and fatisfied multitude-when even the difcontented themfelves were at variance, with refpect to the nature of their grievances, and the modes of their redrefs, he could not doubt a moment of the weaknefs of giving way to fuch a fpirit of projection. The addition of one hundred, or even of fifty county members, would give a decided fuperiority to the landed intereft over the commercial; and it was the beauty of the Houfe of Commons, that, like the general fabric of the British legislature, it preferved the due balance between the feveral great interefts of the empire, the landed, the commercial, and the monied. They were not the deputies, but the reprefentatives of the people. He, therefore, conjured the Houfe to act like men, and like Britons, and to reject fo destructive a refolution. And as the best way of getting rid of it, he fhould vote for the order of the day.

Mr. Beaufoy, in a speech more elegant and correct than is ufual for a member the first time of his rifing in the Houfe, afcribed all the evils of the late war to the want of a due connexion between the people and their reprefentatives.

Mr. Fox concurred in thinking, that the conflitution required fome reform; from its nature it required innovation and renovation. Contrary to the common opinion, he looked upon it to be admirable in practice, but imperfect, and even faulty, in theory. It contitted in three ftates, King, Lords, and Commons, but it was abfurd to think that one man fhould have an equal power to the whole multitude; in practice, therefore, that power was wifely curtailed, and not lodged in the breaft of one man, but in a government confifting of feveral. admitted that the American war had been begun by the withes of the people: when it proved unfuccefsful, they were for putting an end to it long before it 302

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was ended, and therein confifled the defect of the House of Commons. He next adverted to Mr. T. Pitt's offer to give up his borough. The merit was not fo great as it appeared, for the honourable gentleman knew that his offer could not be accepted. He expreffed himfelf a warm friend to a reform; mankind were made for themselves, and not for others; it was the best government where the people had the greateft fhare in it. He did not think the prefent motion would go far enough, but he was confident it would be an amendment, and as fuch would give it his hearty fupport.

Mr. Welbore Ellis fupported Lord North. Sir Charles Turner faid he knew the people expected his fentiments on the business, and it made him proud to think that they had confidence in him. He was certainly for a reform, and should vote for the motion, though he could have wifhed a committee to have been appointed in preference.

The Lord Advocate tated his reafons for voting with Mr. Pitt, on the prefent question; it was a fubject which he had attentively confidered, and on which he had made up his mind.

Captain Luttrell entered pretty largely into the origin and progrefs of parliamentary reprefentation, and reprobated the motion as more dangerous to the conftitutional existence of the country than all the powers of Europe combined in arms against it. The reform aimed at, by all who talked of moderate alterations, was fuch as tended moft to increase their own power and influence, while it would ferve to extend that riot, confufion, idleness, diffipation, and enmity which generally prevail at elections.

Lord Surrey faid, he certainly fhould vote for the motion, in preference to the order of the day, but hoped the people would not flop at that partial

reform.

Mr. Rigby ridiculed the petitions as few, and obtained by partial means. He was himfelf a burgefs, fo was the mover of the queftion; bargeffes were, in his opinion, fully as refpectable as county members. He laughed at the refolutions of the Constitutional Society,

and the Quintuple Alliance. The honeft gentlemen who compofed thefe meetings, and affumed ridiculous names, only deceived themfelves. They thought the attention of all the world was as much engaged in the queftion of parliamentary reform as they were, when, in fact, hardly any body elfe thought or cared about the matter. The influence of the crown, he contended, was as neceffary an ingredient in the conftitution as the power of the Commons, and he was firmly perfuaded had been too much curtailed already, but he trufted the time was not far diftant, when it would be reftored to its former neceffary extent, in thofe particulars in which the public felt a real injury from its diminution.

Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Martin, Alderman Sawbridge, and Sir Watkin Lewes fupported the motion, though it fell far fhort of their wishes.

Mr. Mansfield, Mr. Dempfter, and Sir John Delaval oppofed it.

Mr. W. Pitt entered briefly into the arguments that had been advanced against his propofitions, and defended them with great ability and addrefs. The Houfe then divided on the order of the day, when the numbers were, ayes 293, noes 149. The motion was, therefore, loft.

May 8th, the Lords fent down the amendments made by them in the bill for opening the intercourfe with America. The Speaker obferved to the Houfe, that as the bill empowered the crown to impofe duties, it was ftrictly fpeaking a money bill; it, therefore, concerned the privileges of the House, not to fuffer the Lords to make any amendments in it. In corroboration of this doctrine, he read a minute of one of his predeceffors (Mr. Onflow) which ftated, that it was clearly the constitutional privilege of that House to vote fupplies, to manage loans, to bring in money bills, to fettle every part of them, and in fhort every thing relating to the forms of bills affecting the public revenue; and further, that it was effential to the exercife of this privilege, that it fhould, on all occafions, be adhered to with the utmost ftriftnefs. In conformity to this opi

nion, and the established practice of the Houfe, the confideration of the amendments was poftponed, and a new bill, framed according to them, ordered to be brought in and paffed with all poffible difpatch.

The Houfe then proceeded to hear counsel in the cafe of Sir Thomas

Rumbold.

May 12th, in a Committee of Supply, Mr. Ord in the chair, Lord John Cavendish moved for various fums to make good the deficiencies of taxes and grants for last year, which were feverally agreed to.

The Hon. John Townshend moved, that a fum not exceeding 457,9891. be voted for the ordinaries of the navy, and a further fum of 311,8481. for the extraordinaries.

Mr. Buller faid, he was glad to find that the mode of eftimate, which had been so often reprobated in that Houfe as fallacious, was at laft found to be the mode beft adapted to the nature of the fervice,, by thofe who had formerly been loudeft in their cenfures. But he could not help remarking on the conduct of the Admiralty, in having fuperannuated Mr. Jackfon, with a penfion of 400l. per annum, than whom a more able and honeft man never ferved the public, who was fill in the full poffeffion of all his talents, and as capable and as willing to ferve the public as ever. He complained of the enormous amount of the navy extraordinaries, which he declared exceeded the fum alked for at the end of the laft war, in more than 200,000l. He remonftrated against the promotions, as an unnecellary burthen to the country, and though they were, in fome measure, unavoidable at the end of a war, he should still contend that there was no occafion for fo many having been made.

Mr. Townthend replied, that, at the conclufion of the lalt peace, only 10,000l. had been asked for, but that fum was found fo inadequate to the fervice, that next year 200,000l. more was voted, and miniters blamed for not having asked enough at once. The prefent extraordinary included the fum for Lord Rodney's prizes, which,

under the peculiar circumftances of the cafe, the Admiralty did not choose to pay, till they had the fanction of parliament for the measure.

Mr. Hopkins was fo far from agreeing that too much was now afked for, that he thought the very reverfe. The fum afked last year was undoubtedly very large, and why? Becaufe the fum afked, for feveral preceding years, had been fo far too fmall, and by no means adequate to the public exigency. By faying this, he did not mean to blame Lord Sandwich, or any particular board of Admiralty. The blame lay wholly with the noble lord who had prefided over the government of this country, at the commencement and during the progrefs of the accurfed, ruinous, and deftructive American war; he who, when the war broke out, had the frontery to tell that Houfe, that there was not even a probability of the Houfe of Bourbon taking part in the quarrel.

Lord Mulgrave infifted that Lord Sandwich had proved hinfelf an able and upright minifter, and when his conduct came to be fairly enquired into, and the prejudice naturally attending unfuccefsful enterprifes was thrown afide, the public would be of the fame opinion. He called the attention of the committee to the deplorable fituation of officers' widows, whofe pension was paid merely when they were reduced to neceflity.

He trusted, therefore, that the Houfe would agree to a propofition, which he meant to bring forward at a fit opportunity in their behalf. At the end of a war, in which few officers had gotten much, they looked up to preferment, as a thing infinitely preferable to every confideration of emolument. It was that fort of reward which beft gratified the honeft pride of thofe men who readily rifqued their lives in their country's fervice, and he hoped never to fee it withheld, or dealt out with a niggardly hand.

Sir Grey Cooper defended Lord North, and reprehended fo violent an attack being made upon him in his abfence, and that without its having the leaft reference to the question.

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A converfation altogether defultory now took place, from which Mr. Dempfter recalled the committee, and the refolutions were put and agreed

to.

May 13. Agreed to the report from the committee of the votes for the ordinary and extraordinary of the navy. May 14. In a committee on the bill for preventing bribery, corruption, and expence at elections, amended the first claufe, by fubjecting to a penalty thofe who should confine or carry away electors, and went through the other claufes.

May 15. Mr. Alderman Sawbridge made his annual motion for fhortening the duration of parliaments, which Alderman Bull, as ufual, feconded.

Mr. Barrow moved the previous queftion. Alderman Sawbridge faid, that he would not fuffer gentlemen to skulk behind a previous queftion, for if by that means his motion fhould be loft for that day, he would renew it every day, till it received an open negative or affirmative. Mr. Barrow then withdrew his motion, and the Houfe divided on the Alderman's, which was negatived, nees 123; ayes 56.

May 19. General Smith gave notice,

that he intended to move fome refolutions grounded on the report from the felect committee on India affairs. Governor Johnstone faid, that to vote refolutions of cenfure againft individuals, upon the reports of committees only, without examining the evidence on which fuch reports were founded, was repugnant to juftice; he fhould, therefore, move for the original minutes of the committce. Captain John Luttrell feconded the motion, which being amended, by inferting the word "copies" inftead of "originals," was agreed to.

Lord Newhaven moved, that, as a profecution was commenced again't Meff. Fowell and Fembridge in the courts below, the order of the 24th of April, for a copy of the Treafury minutes relating to thefe gentlemen, thould be difcharged. This brought on a debate, in which many gentlemen took part. Mr. Burke apolegifed for the warmth he had betrayed on the former

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Mr. W. Pitt faid the Treasury minutes were neceffary to vindicate the characters of thofe, by whofe advice they had been difmiffed from their office. Mr. Fox and Lord North contended, that it would be cruel and unjuft to fend men to trial, prejudged by that Houfe. The motion being carried by a finall majority,

May 20th, Mr. Rolle gave notice that he would again bring forward the fame bufinefs in another thape, and

May 21ft, Seeing the Paymafter-General in his place, requefted him to inform the Houfe, whether he ftill perfevered in his intention of keeping Meff. Powell and Bembridge in office. Mr. Burke entered into a long detail of the merits of thefe gentlemen, and of the motives on which he had reftored them, but faid that he was not wedded to his own opinion, and would be ruled by the fenfe of the House. Many members took part in the conversation that enfued, and it was fettled, without a divifion, that they fhould be re

moved.

Mr. Daubeny then moved that the fecond reading of the Cuftom-Houfe reform bill fhould be deferred for three months. Mr. Gafcoigne jun. feconded the motion. Mr. Pitt defended the principle of the bill, but admitted fome of the claufes might be objectionable; the faireft way would, therefore, be, to let it go to a committee, and then the feveral claufes might be argued, and fuch alterations made as might be thought neceffary. Mr. Daubeny withdrew his motion, upon which the bill was read a fecond time, and ordered to be committed.

May 23. Mr. Maurice Lloyd ftated, that in fearching into the accounts of the Lank, he found that there was fo large a fum as 1,280,000l. on which no intereft had been paid for the last feventeen years; he, therefore, moved for an account of all fuch fums, on which dividends were due and unpaid, up to the fettling day of the year 1780.

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