PARLIAMENTARY HISTORY. TONDAY, May 5th, in the Houfe tion than to diftress government, or inter

of Lords, the order of the day rupt public business, he had hit upon a for the third reading of the loan bill middle line, which would rescue him being read,

from the necessity of opposing the third Lord Wycomb (Earl of Shelburne) reading of the loan bill, and would called their Lordhips' attention to two establish a principle forevery ministry, by propositions, which he introduced by which to conduct future loans. Previous à preface of considerable length, dif- to ftating the reasons, on which he claiming all ideas of rancour and en- grounded the resolutions, which he mity, and profefling to be actuated by Thould have the honour to move, he no retrospective motives whatever. It would desire that the protest of the zift had been stated, he said, by a noble of March 1781 might be read from Viscount (Lord Stormont) the other the journals. It was the strong proteft day, that to make any alterations in on Lord North's loan of that year, and the loan bill would prove a dangerous was signed by the Lords Rockingham, experiment, in the present exigence of Portland, Ofborne, J. St. Afaph, De affairs, inasmuch as it would rouse the Ferrars, Fitzwilliam, Bolton, and Ponjealousy of the other House, who fonby, and was read accordingly at the claimed the exclusive privilege of being table. In referring to this protest, he the sole inftitutors and directors of all declared, he meant nothingpersonal to money bills. He had a good deal the noble lords now in office. He turned in his mind the propriety of the would have signed the protest himself, other House throwing out a money and lamented that, wearied out with bill, on account of any amendments fruitless opposition to measures, which made by their lordships.' The question, ultimately had nearly induced the ruin their lordhips well knew, occurred in of the country, he had been absent on the year 1671, or thereabout, and had the occasion. The reasoning in it was never been clearly decided; he, how- plain and forcible; and the application ever, had learned from an honest and obvious. The loan of that year was * worthy man, as great and respectable an protested against on three different

authority as could be consulted on the grounds; the improvidence of the bare subject, that it had ever been the opini- gain; the corrupt operation; and the on of the great men his contemporaries, parsial distribution of it. To these, in Queen Anne's time, and indeed of he would add a lottery as a fourth; as all the great men, at all times, that the reprehensible, in his mind, as any thing more their lord/hips' right of interfering belonging to the loan of the present with money bills was given up, the year. It was usual for persons not more the House would


íkilled in loans to suspect a mystery in fusion, and the more mischief would them; he who affected to make a myfollow. But, without meaning to stery of them meant to deceive; noagitate that question at present, as no- thing could be more fimple, when thing could be farther froin his inten- looked at with attention; it was only Lond. MAG, Nov, 1783.


into con

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necefTary to consider millions as hun- and wished to God it could be als dreds, and to enter on the account, tained to whose conduct that interes with the same degree of care that men num had been owing. The cuipit, k bestow on their private affairs. He he who he would, ought to be da pointed out the different methods of forth to condign punishment, as an 3making a loan, by an open subscrip- ample to the whole nation. In tion; by a close one; and laftly, by a also been charged on the delay of c competition. The first he considered last administration in quitting the as a measure to be adopted rather in places, after they saw that it was iztime of peace than in war. He thought possible to retain them. That accuts extremely well of a close one, but ad- tion, too, was groundless. On the iš vised to keep the sum wanted a pro- resolution of the House of Commus, found secret, till the lat moment; to he had made up his mind, as sordy a give it to as few as posible; and to possible, to going out. On Saturón give those few the whole, without the morning, as soon as he heard of the Imallcit reserve. When a few had the resolution and the division, he had akwhole, a smaller profit fatisfied them, ed if notice was given of any notica because it was exactly the same, whe- for Monday, in consequence of the ther a money-lender got a small profit solutions that had been carried; and on a large return of capital, or a great he trusted, that to have stood firm is profit on a small return. Another pre. such a moment, and to have done nocaution was, to treat for it with none thing that looked like an attempt to bat rich and responsible men, who finch from the justice of his country, could bring it gradually to market, and would be considered as manly conduct buy it in again, if it fell low. He Finding that no notice of any further then entered into a minute discusion motion had been given, and that the of the terms of the present loan, and House of Commons, notwithstanding stated the loss to the public at 650,000l. its two former resolutions respecting This, he contended, was infinitely a the peace, durft not proceed again biz worse bargain for the public, than the personally, he intimated his intention loan of 1781, which food reprobated to his fovereign by letter, and went to in the protest juit read, but which ne St. James's on Wednesday, to perform vertheless was so far excuseable, that it. It had been asked how a better it was made in time of war.

He con loan could be made in a hurry? He demned the reserve that had been made, faw no argument whatever in the quelas every way indefenfible; nobody but tion. The loan was settled on Saturministers could tell who were covered day, and not opened to the House of under the large fums allotted to bun- Commons. till the Wednesday followkers. The very idea of giving to ing. Was that a proof of hurry! la tankers he reprehended very feverely, reply to the argument so often resorted and declared that in France it was a to, that the last adminiftration ought common saying, “ Gut but poflefion to have made the loan, did even those of the bankers, and the whole king- who used that argument thinkit poffible dom my ealily be managed through for them, after having lost the confia that influence. The third mode of dence of the House of Commons, to making a loan, by competition, was have carried through such a measure? in his opinion, a very good one; and Would not they themselves have been in the present case, he knew the Trea- the inoit clamorous to prevent it, had fury had an offer of a competition, he and his colleagues been weak enough from four gentlemen of undeniable re to fuppcle it practicable, or mad sponsibility. His lordship next took enough to hazard the desperate ata a view of what had been argued in de- tempt? ferice of the loan. Its badness had He then went into a discution of beon ascribed to a certain interregnum, the funds taken to make parts of the the blame of which had been thrown loan, and argued upon the propriety of îpen him. He denied the accusation, trying a 5 per cent. The creation of



ich a stock would have intimated an whole fum to be raised fall be borAtention to pay off a part of the na- rowed of or taken from such indivional debt, as soon as poslible; it was duals, without reserve of any part for iviseable to raise the money without the future disposal of any minister.” Iding unneceffarily to the debt of the Earl Fitzwilliam defended the negoation. As the case stood, we were

ciators of the loan; if it was not so ply 16 millions for 12. It was good as might have been expected, it nore adviseable to pay a high intereft, was to be attributed to the embarrated nd incur a small debt of capital, than situation of men in power, and the aho have a large capital entailed upon us, folute neceility they were under of oby preferring a small interest. If once taining the money immediately. He he idea prei ailed, that it was not our followed the noble Earl through many ntention to lessen the national debt, of his calculations, and drew conciupublic credit would be loft, and public fons very different from what had been credit alone it was, that had upheld us just made. The money-lenders knew throughout the war, and rendered us the neceflity there was for an iminediate the wonder and envy of Europe. He supply, and how much would be want. next adverted to the lottery, a measure ed; fixteen millions had been voted in which he had always reprobated, as the House of Commons, and only three poisonous to the morals of the people, had been provided for; they were, and productive of the most pernicious therefore, certain, that twelve millions mischiefs. Nor was it, in his mind, at were the very least that could be wantall necessary; fix or seven fillings ed. A competition, could it have been short annuity would always prove as made, would have been a very defiregood a make-weight, and be attended able thing; but to make a competition with infinitely less fatal consequences there muit be two sets of bidders, and to the community. He complimented the four gentlemen who had written to the Duke of Portland on his integrity, the Chancellor of the Exchequer adability, and firmness, and added, that vifing the measure, had only faid that the more honeft men were respected, they would be one set, but without the more narrowly ought they to be stating their terms, or in any way watched, when acting with others of whatever enabling government to take

fufpicious character; lie should, there- advantage of their adrice, or create an (fore, narrowly watch the noble Duke auction of the loan. So far froin it,

and the present Chancellor of the Ex- that on Friday, when the Chancellor chequer. And after having been up an of the Exchequer propofeit terms lower hour and a half, concluded with moving than those offered by the money -lenders, his first resolution as follows:

though in a very trifle onlv; three of That it is the opinion of this the letter writers, who were in the room, House, that all future loans should be had not the fpirit to accept the noble conducted in a manner which may best lord's terms, or to offer others of their conduce to the reduction of the na With respect to the two resolutional debt, or which may at least not tions, the one appeared unnecessary, obstruct such a reduction, but rather and the other highly improper. No manifelt the intention of government, man denied that all loans ought to be to proceed in due time to such a mea niade with an intention to proceed, in sure.”

due time, to the liquidation of the naThat the Howe might be in poffef- tional debt. The present loan had been fion of his full meaning, he would made with that view, and as to the read to their lordships another refolu- question, whether creating a five per tion, which he intended to move cent. fund, or raising it on the three

That it is the opinion of this per cents. was most adviseable? it House, that whenever it shall be thought was mere matter of speculation. In expedient, in negociating a public loan, his judgement, the mode adopted was to deal with individuals, and not on th:e molt practicable, and the mott reathe foot of an open subscription, the sonable for the public. To the second



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posed of.


resolution he should also give his die charging them with neglect for a rect negative, but conceived it unne bringing forward the loan. cesary to go much into either, because The Duke of Portland rose to da the order of the day must be first dis- up fome circumstances with respects

his treating for the loan in the team Here the House got into some em ner he had done, and to state the corharrasiment as to the order of their rent prices of stocks when the harga proceeding, which being obviated, by was settled. When he came into = Lord Thurlow moving that the third fice, there was but 400,ocol. in 1 reading of the loan bill be adjourned Exchequer, and there were claims s for an hour,

the Treasury for services to the ama-Lord Shelburne again moved his first of 3,400,000l. The navy was in resolution, when Lord Storinont ob- most mutinous condition, and called : ferved, that conceiving the resolution be paid off, and 300,000l. and Oc. and the money bill to be connected, had been issued a few days prericast: though thus brought separately before the loan. His predecessors were blue their lordships, he trusted he hould able, either in retaining their offices a not be thought disorderly, if he spoke ter they had loft the support of pris of the latter, though not in fact before ment, or in not discharging the dota the House. He juilified the loan from of office while they remained in. the peculiar circuinstances under which Lord Keppel corroborated the nose it had been made; and declared that Duke in what regarded the mutinio all the arguments which rested on its the navy, and the necessity of part being worse, on account of the re off the ships without the loss of a r. ferre, fell to the ground, because the eleven perfons, who contracted for it, Lord Sydney, in justification of his had been offered the whole without re- self and colleagues, attributed the des ferve, provided they would take it on complained of to diffentions amor better terms for the public. He did those now in office; and was proceedias not look for much



pro to itate a number of rumours, when tests, but a flow of parliamentary elo Earl Ravensworth called him to e quence and political declamation. He der, and said they did not come to her opposed the resolution, and wondered stories about their cabals and ftruggles that the last administration had not and goings out and comings in. moved the loan, in the day of triumph, 'The Earl of Derby opposed the inwhen the news of peace reached the tion as absurd and impolitic. country, before the hour of fad reflex Lord Loughborough queftioned the ion came, and men faw with what a good sense of their coming to resolulavish hand our poflerions had been tions concerning loans, where no loar. dealt av ay to purchase it: they had could originate, and where none in futñcient time from the 25th of Janu- fact could be amezided or altered. He ary, when the preliminaries arrived, to combated those in queftion, as ther! the 17th of February, when the vote nonsense, perfectly inappiicable ro the palied againt them, in the other House. present, or to any future loan. The Even after this they ought to have term loan being used instead of annuin brought it forward, since they chose to conveyed this abfurd idea, that a na remain in office. A noble lord in the who borrowed twelve millions was 1) other House had done so, when he do it so cunningly, that he shouldne, found it necessary to retire from his at the same time, run telve millions Majesty's service; and it might perhaps in debt. He argued this view of 1 bare been much better for this coun morion with most successful ridicuk, try, had they copied that noble and termed it “ the true no-meaning, lord in that, as well as in many other that puzzles more than wit." circumstances.

Lord Thurlow attacked Lord Lough Lord Thurlow defended the late ad- borough's mode of treating the me ministration, and ridiculed the idea of tion. He contended againit the pt


fent loan, as worse than it ought to peace passed the House of Commons. have been, and worse than it might Let the House adopt or reject the refohave been; advised the noble Duke to lutions; he was perfectly indifferent; be upon his guard: ftrange stories were nonfenfical as they had appeared to a in círculation relative to the present learned lord, he was content to let loan: complained of having been called them rest on their own bottom. the avowed ad vocate of influence; ap Lord Keppel bid the noble Earl repealed to his conduct respecting the collect, that he was at the head of the contractor's bill, and gave it as his opi- Admiralty while we were engaged in nion, that the minister ought to be a war; his attention, therefore, had hanged, who corruptly distributed the been directed to the greater objects of loan, with a view to influence.

actual and immediate service, and not The Earl of Derby expressed his fur- to plans of reform, that could only be prise, that the learned lord should now, attended to in times of peace. for the firit time, find fault with a Some altercation between Lords Shelmode of making loans, that had ob- burne and Keppel ensued, to which the tained for years, without his starting a House thought proper to put a stop. single objection. He retorted on Lord Both the resolutions were negatived Sydney for his charge of the interreg- without a divifion, and the loan bill num upon the pretcnt administration, was read a third time, and passed. and said the laft administration having In the House of Commons, Lord lost the confidence of the House of Maitland read a petition, signed by Commons, had caused it; and called four persons, complaining of the comupon Lord Shelburne to fhew how the mander in chief, for not having, at their plausible proinises in the King's speech request, ordered a court-martial to try had been fulfilled, before he urged the several complaints brought by them noble Duke and his friends, who had against Sir James Lowther, for peculabeen but a fortnight in office, to pro- tion, oppreffion, and other mal-pracduce the acts of their administration, tices, while he commanded the Westin proof of their good intentions. moreland militia. The petition had

Lord Shelburne replied to all that been three months in his hands, and had been said against his motion. He being informed there were proofs to did not believe that he had lift the support the allegations, for the truth confidence of the House of Commons, of which, howerer, he would not but let the House of Commons take pledge himself, he thought it his duty care, or they would lofe his confidence. to present it. He, therefore, mored, With regard to the promises in the that the petition be brought up. King's fpeech, they had begun to be Mr. D. P. Coke seconded the mofulfilled; a Custom-house bill had been tion.-General Conway gave a detail presented to the House of Commons; of the whole business, and said that other great and essential plans of re- having the best proofs that the charges form were ripening, and would foon were groundless, he had not sent the have been matured, had he and his honourable baronet to trial. friends remained in office. Let the Sir James Lowther entered into a noble Earl enquire at the Treasury; he defence of himself, and proved to dewould learn there that great reforms monftration, that there was not the were in preparation, when he was least ground for any one of the charges obliged to quit his fation. The Ad- contained in the petition. miralty was, he mult own, the least Mr. Fox did not approve of such pe. active of any great department, with a titions being brought to that House, view to reform. He meant no attack, because it would in the end become a but such was the fact. in answer to court of appeal from every man, who the queftion, why the lait adminiftra- should think he had cause of complaint tion did not make the loan? it was against a court-martial or court of ento have been brought in, the very next quiry. The motion was negatived week after the resolution upon the nem. con, and the House adjourned.


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