carry a meffage, he had to obferve, that the hon. General had no right to give the order alluded to, to the commander of the Bristol cavalry; but there were at Briftol fome orderly ferjeants of militia, and why the honourable General did not fend one of those he did not exactly understand. It should, however, be understood, that when the volunteers were not on actual duty they were not under the command of any General. There was no doubt they would be perfectly willing to go on any fervice that was required of them in cafe of emergency, but the hon. General had no power to fend one of the volunteer cavalry on any fervice. As to what had been fened with refpe&t to the Frome Selwood Legion, the cafe was is, that the commanding officer wanted to give a parsimular company the precedence; to this the others objected. Confiderable difputes arole, and on the cafe being reprefented to him, he (Mr. Yorke) advifed an amicable accommodation; but that not being effected, the corps was diffolved, and the companies were afterwards ie-eitablished upon another footing. As to what had been faid with reinect to the volunteers been liable to be called out in cafe of the appearance of an enemy off any part of the united kingdom, he repeated what he had before stated, as to the manner in which the words relating to that provision had been introduced; but obferved, that he would rather rely upon the zeal and energy of the volunteers here, in cafe of any hoftile impreffion being made upon Ireland.

Mr. T. Grenville faid that he had heard the right hon. Gentleman oppofite to him, in opening the business now before the Houfe, fpeak of a recommitment of the bill, but he had fince heard no affurance of that kind from any of the Minifters. He wished to know in what ftage of the bill the prefent difcuffion took place?

The Speaker faid, that the question before the House was "that the report of the Committee be now taken into further confideration." Two things, therefore, were at the option of the House, either to agree to the report, or crder the bill to be recommitted; or, inftead of now, to appoint it to be taken into confideration on fome future day.

Mr. Kinnaird thought that he would beft perform his duty by oppoling the receiving of the report. He viewed the prefent bill as an inefficient fubftitute for a crude and undigefted fyftem of defence. In all the deliberations on the prefent bill, the volunteers, he trufled, had been confidered as divided into two claffes; thofe who entered in June, and

thofe

those who had not stepped forward till Auguft. To those of the latter defcription he begged himself to be understood as, applying his obfervations. During the laft feflion, Parliament had under its confideration the defence act, which, under all its difadvantages, he had no hesitation in thinking infinitely fuperior to that now adopted in its ftead. Under that act, the great body on whom the defence of the country muft reft, would foon have been in a condition, at a small expence, to act in concert with the regular army. They were to have been trained by officers of the line, and were to have been subject to the fame number of drill days as the force now reforted to. He begged it, therefore, to be confidered, what must have been the difference in ftrength between fuch a force and one trained under the present syftem. They were, under the defence act, to have formed a fyftematic and regular body; by the prefent act, they were divided into disjointed and unequally difciplined corps.

Sir W. Young repeated what he had obferved upon former eccafions, with refpect to the distinction which he conceived ought to be made between thofe volunteers who had come forward previous to the defence act, and those who had been fubfequently enrolled. He contended, that the prefent bill was a bill of distrust with respect to the volunteers, as it went to inflict penalties, arreft, and imprisonment upon those who had patriotically and zealously come forward in the defence of their country.

The Secretary at War denied that the bill was a bill of diftruft with refpect to the volunteers. As to the arrest and imprisonment mentioned by the hon. Baronet, the latter was not mentioned in the bill, and the former was only introduced to preferve that difcipline which was fo neceflary in volunteer corps, and was at the fame time only to continue whilft the corps were under arms. As to the diftinction taken by the hon. Baronet between two claffes of volunteers, nobody denied that there was a diftinction between the volunteers who had offered their fervices at different periods; but to make that diftinction in the exemptions would be highly invidious. As to the objection urged by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Kinnaird) refpecting the drill ferjeants tor volunteer corps, the fact was, that the expence was merely transferred from the refpective parishes to Government. With refpe&

to what had been stated by the hon. General (General Tarleton) as to no orderly dragoon to be found at Bristol, becaufe no one of the volunteer cavalry would become an orderly dra

goon

goon to carry a meffage, he fhould only obferve that the hon. General had no authority to require it, and that it was not exactly the ufe to be made of volunteer cavalry. As to what had been faid by the hon. General relative to the deficiency in the 2d battalion of Wilts militia, it was impoffible there could be any neceffary deficiency, as out of 7000 volunteers who had offered their fervices, only 6000 had been accepted.

Mr. Alexander ftrenuously defended the volunteer syftem, which he contended was fuch as ought to remove every poffible apprehenfion from any attack of the enemy. We poffeffed now a greater force than this country ever before poffeffed, and were in fact an armed nation. Much had been faid of the levy-en-maffe; but he contended, that there was no comparison between the reliance that could be placed upon them and upon the volunteers, because, however zealous they might be, they would want the difcipline and regularity which the volunteers would poffefs. This had been exemplified in Ireland, where the yeomanry conftantly defeated the people, who, it might be faid, had rifen in a mafs. It was true, that in carrying on this conteft, this country was at a great expence; but it was an expence within the country, and our treasures were not expended in Germany on foreign allies.

Mr. Fox faid, that when he came into the Honfe, he meant to have taken the fense of the Houfe upon this fubject, but he was induced not to perfift in his intention for two reasons: first, because there was a determined fyftem of mifrepresentation upon this fubiect; every Gentleman that oppofed any part of this meafure was reprefented as being hoftile to the whole volunteer fyftem. Though there was not the flighteft ground for fuch an infinuation, yet he he did not choose to expofe himfelf to fuch a mifreprefentation, and therefore he would not take the fenfe of the Houfe upon this motion. His other reafon for declining it was, that Minifters must be fo fenfible of the imperfect state of this bill, that they muft fee the neceffity of its being recommitted. Upon thefe grounds he would not take up more of the time of the Houfe at prefent. It was not his intention to move the recommitment of the bill himself, but he hoped that fome other Gentleman would do it, and he requested to be informed by the Speaker when would be the proper

time to do it.

The Speaker faid, that fuch a motion might be made when the prefent motion was difpofed of, or at any time before the bill was engroffed.

The

The motion was then agreed to.

Mr. Secretary Yorke immediately moved that the amendments be read a second time.

Mr. C. IV. Wynne then rofe, and expreffed his intention of moving to recommit the bill.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke to order, and said, that fuch a motion could not be made until the present motion for the second reading of the amendments was got rid of.

The Speaker faid, he understood that the right hon. Secretary had waved his motion.

Mr. Yorke faid he certainly had not waved it: as foon as the other motion was difpofed of, he had, according to the ufual form, made his prefent motion.

Mr. Grenville faid, the right hon. Gentleman had certainly made the motion, but it was done in fo rapid a manner, and after the other motions had been agreed to, with a view of a motion being made for the recommitment of the bill, that he did not think that the right hon. Gentleman could with candour perfift in his motion.

Mr. Yorke faid, he could not fit ftill while an imputation was thrown upon his conduct, in his public or private capacity. He had made the regular motion which it was his duty to make, and he certainly fhould perfift in it.

Mr. Windham faid, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not perfift in his motion, because it was certainly made when the Houfe were waiting for the opinion of the Chair upon the mode of proceeding,

The Secretary at War denied that the Houfe were waiting for information from the Chair, because the Speaker had given to the Houfe the information which was required, before the motion was made.

The Speaker fhortly explained the proceeding which had taken place, and faid, that the queftion now before the Houfe was, that the amendments be read a fecond time.

Mr. C. W.Wynne oppofed the motion, and was in favour of the bill's being recommitted.

Mr. Fox faid, that it could now make no material difference, whether the observations which he had intended to offer were made in the prefent ftage of the bill, or in a recommitment. Every Gentleman in the Houfe must be aware, that it was not the object of the hon. Member who fpoke laft to throw out the bill, but to have it recommitted, in order that a measure which was worth nothing as it ftood, might, if poffible, be rendered worth fomething. He was for recommitting the bill, for the fame reafon that at prefent VOL. II. 1803-4.

Z

he

he would be for throwing it out altogether. He was for recommitting it, because he was of opinion, that if paffed in its prefent fhape, the Government of this country would be held out to the public eftimation in the moft contemptible light in which any Government had hitherto fteod. He profeffed himself by no means inimical to the voluntary force of the country. He agreed that that fyftem, whether good or bad, was the only defence on which this country had now to relv. The defective features in this fyftemi had been experienced, and the attention of Minifters had been endeavoured to be directed towards them early in the prefent feffion of Parliament, and previous to the recefs, but without fuccefs. No revifion of the fyftem was then deemed neceffary. Parliament met on the 22d November, and now on the 19th of March not one measure had been adopted for ftrengthening the defence of the country. The whole of this momentous concern was entrusted to the bill now lying on the table. Parliament had now been fitting for four months; no ftep had, during this period, been taken for recruiting the army, or army of referve; all refted on the voluntary defence, and the prefent bill contained every measure of vigour, of precaution or encouragement, which that fyftem had been deemed capable of receiving. Could it then be denied that the measure which had alone been refortéd to was calculated to expofe to the public the incapacity and imbecility of Government, and to expofe the proceedings of Parliament to derifion and contempt? Let thofe moft fond of the prefent bill fay, in what cfpect it had added to the fafety or defence of the country. Some claufes undoubtedly had been introduced by other Members, not concerned in the introduction of the measure, to conceal its nothingnefs; but after all, what did it contain? He declared that he had as high a respect for the volunteer force of the country as any man could have. Every man was bound to esteem it, as on it muit our defence in a great measure depend. But what peculiar exceilencies were to be found in this bill, which could call forth and increase the zeal, or animate the exertions of the volunteers? There were none fuch. It was entirely compofed of fubaltern regulations, of regulations rather calculated to difguft, than to animate and encourage. They were taken, bound to perform duties, and to fubmit to deprivations which were not in their contemplation at the time they offered their fervices. In cafe of an infurrection in Ireland, or a threatened invafion of that country, every man in England, be his avo 'cations what they might, was, by the prefent bill, to be Called