ion that they should be partially proceeded with. The Committee said 66 Up to the 15th of April, 1848, about 400,000l. had been expended at Keyham, and contracts, involving a very large outlay, are still binding. Under these obligations, your Committee recommend to the House that the works immediately dependent upon the coffer-dam should be continued; but they desire further to suggest, that no progress in the buildings and factories should be made until the estimate shall, in the navy estimates of 1849-50, or of some future Session, have been submitted to the House; and they recommend that in the preparation of this future estimate the details and proportionate expense of the work should be limited in amount, thereby lessening the charge on the revenue of the year, and postponing the completion of this new establishment to a more distant period. Arrangements for giving effect to these recommendations can only be made in accordance with the stipulations of contracts now in force, or with the consent of to works at Keyham should be entered into until the Board of Admiralty shall have reconsidered their plans for this factory, and communicated their decision to the House." the contractors; but no new contract in reference Now, this steam basin, as it was called, involved a great deal more than the cost of construction. If it was carried on in the way proposed, there was to be an outlay of 80,000l. per annum for wages. He objected to establish a large manufactory, and to keep up a great number of skilled workmen, at a large expense. They were laying out this large sum for docks and basins, forgetting that commercial men required no steam docks or basins. They brought their vessels to a river wall and put their machinery in. It appeared to him they were completely wasting the money, and, in fact, if they had a California without any trouble or expense in getting the gold, they could not act with greater prodigality. SIR FRANCIS BARING said, the hon. Gentleman knew as well as he did that the original intention was to create a large factory at Keyham; but he stated last year that they had no intention to create a factory there. SIR WILLIAM MOLESWORTH: Then why is it put in the estimate? MR. COBDEN: Mr. Ward distinctly stated that if a factory is not included, the whole sum will be wasted. SIR FRANCIS BARING said, the whole expenditure was before Parliament. He had followed entirely the recommendation of the Committee that they should go on with those works which were not completed at the time with regard to the basin, but they should leave the factory works. ADMIRAL BOWLES said, that it was of the utmost importance that this addition of the new works at Keyham to the dockyard at Devonport should be completed with as little delay as possible. That, even with all the exertions which could be used, it would be at least two years before a single steam-vessel could be repaired at that yard; and when it was considered that this was the arsenal to which ships disabled in the Bay of Biscay, as well as on the coast of France and Ireland, would naturally resort for safety and repairs, it might easily be imagined what difficulties and delays would arise, if, at the commencement of war or armament, we found our frontier dockyard wholly unprovided with the means of speedily refitting a most important part of our Navy, and destitute of those preparations and appliances with which all the French arsenals on the opposite coast are now so amply furnished. It was therefore, in his opinion, the duty of Her Majesty's Government to proceed with these works with the least possible delay; and he had heard with much regret some expressions from the First Lord of the Admiralty which induced him to fear that that right hon. Gentleman was not sufficiently aware of the vital importance of this subject, or the fatal consequences which might arise from disregarding it. The Committee of 1848 was, in his opinion, deeply responsible to the nation for the erroneous opinions expressed in their report on this question-a report made in direct opposition to the whole of the evidence, and drawn up by Gentlemen whose strong preconceived prejudices, and previous sentiments, rendered them very incompetent judges of a great professional subject of this description. MR. CORRY said, that the most judicious of the witnesses before the Committee were unanimously of opinion that a steam factory at Devonport would be a highly useful establishment. MR. HENLEY said, that the only answer the right hon. Baronet had given was that the Government were not going to build a factory now; but the way the Estimates were framed led to the inference that the Committee pledged itself to the application of this large vote to a particular purpose, and it might be concluded that the Government were going to build it next year or the year after. He saw also that there was a foundation laid down for an establishment, and that workshops and a smithy had been erected. SIR FRANCIS BARING said, that take this opportunity of impressing upon this Estimate had been framed to meet the First Lord of the Admiralty the necesthe objection taken before the Committee sity of giving to all officers of Her Majesas to the mode of drawing up the Esti- ty's Navy ample opportunities of becoming mates. He had proposed the whole of the practically acquainted with the machinery original vote as it might be required, and connected with the steam engines now emif he had followed the old practice, the ployed so largely in the service. Not effect would have been that he should have long ago, the commander of the squadron concealed from the Committee a large off Lisbon ordered the captain of a steamer sum of money. He thought he had stated to unship the tubes of the boiler. This as plainly as man could state a fact, that was done despite the remonstrance of the he had not the slightest intention of captain, who had not sufficient artificers setting up the factory; but occasions might on board; and on returning to Portsmouth arise-a time of war, for instance-which they were found to be replaced in a very might render the building necessary, and unworkmanlike manner, and thus the ignohe could not bind the Government against rance of the commander cost the country doing that which might be essential in several thousand pounds. times of emergency. MR. HENLEY objected that the Government might say to that House, whenever it was convenient to carry out this project, that they had had the Estimate before them year by year, and therefore it was impossible to see what objection could be made to it. MR. GEACH wished for some explanation of a sum of 4,000l. which he saw in the vote, that was to be applied towards the building of a church at Keyham. SIR FRANCIS BARING said, that in order to compare the votes for the years it was necessary to put in the sum voted in the last year, and last year there had been a discussion on this vote. Many of these items had been put in in contemplation of the proposed establishment at Keyham. The MASTER OF THE ROLLS said, there was a very large population there, and the church was of great use. MR. GEACH said, as a new Member, he must express his opinion that the Committee was going on a wrong system, which must lead to inextricable confusion. 697,000l. had been spent on this place at Keyham, and now it seemed the works were to be given up. If they acted thus in their private concerns, they would soon, as traders, get into another place; and he feared the right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty, if he appeared there, would not get his certificate. It would be better to make the 697,000l. a bad debt at once than go on increasing it by further expenditure. Vote agreed to; as were the following Votes: (4.) 26,000l., Medicines, &c. (5.) 62,9497., Miscellaneous Services. MR. PETO said, he was anxious to SIR FRANCIS BARING said, that every facility was afforded to the officers of the Navy for the acquisition of such knowledge. MR. HUME wished to draw attention to the fact, that if any of Her Majesty's ships assisted a merchantman in distress in never so small a degree, the owner immediately had a bill sent in for the service rendered. This was a foul disgrace upon the Navy of this country; and he had been at the trouble of ascertaining that both the navies of France and of the United States were expressly ordered to render every assistance to merchantmen, and to make no charge; at some future opportunity he should move for inquiry on the subject. SIR FRANCIS BARING said, that as the hon. Member had expressed his intention of calling attention to this question on a future occasion, he would reserve for that opportunity any explanations he might have to offer with respect to it; meantime he would inquire into the matter. MR. HUME said, he wished also to call the attention of the Committee to the fact, that although some years had elapsed since the Pasha of Egypt made a present to England of one of Cleopatra's Needles, no steps had yet been taken to have that curious gift conveyed to this country. There were two pillars of granite in Egypt called Cleopatra's Needles. Of these, one had been presented by the Pasha to England, and the other to France. A month did not elapse before the pillar was conveyed to France, but the pillar that belonged to England still remained in Egypt. During the Premiership of Sir Robert Peel, Captain Donnelly offered to convey it to London for 7,000l., but the offer was refused, on the ground that the money could not be spared. And there the needle still re Vote agreed to, as were also(6.) 488,4521., Military Pensions. (7.) 159,5897., Civil Pensions. (8.) 143,2007., Freight of Ships, &c. On the Motion that the sum of 889,4961. be granted to defray the charges of the Post Office Packets, MR. W. WILLIAMS objected to proceeding with so important a vote at one o'clock in the morning. The Committee had sat considerably beyond their usual time, and it was only fair now to report progress. Mr. George Ward, &c. 698 mained, an insult to the man who present- | present a petition, of which I gave notice ed it to us, and no badge of honour to our- about a week ago. It is a petition from a selves. He was grieved to find so much British merchant, Mr. George Ward, long extravagance in some respects, and so resident at Caracas, in the State of Venemuch parsimony in others. zuela. He states, that having been established at Caracas for more than a quarter of a century, and being mainly instrumental in procuring that state of commercial relations subsisting between Venezuela and this country, he was about two years ago suddenly arrested by the Government of Venezuela, thrown into a common prison, and there kept as a prisoner twenty-six days, in violation of all the principles of the constitution of that country, and of all the rules of legal procedure acknowledged there, and which regulate the relation of the subjects of that State with the Government: in violation also, he states, of that Treaty of Commerce which in the year 1825 was signed and ratified between this country and the State of Venezuela, and under which protection was secured to all British subjects, and under which and coeval with which the establishment of Mr. George Ward at Caracas took place. The petition also states that, after the termination of those twenty-six days-the Government not being able to substantiate any charge whatever against him, and he having been arrested only on a vague suspicion that he was connected with some revolutionary transactions in the interior provinces of the State-he was dismissed from the prison by the Government, but kept as a prisoner in Caracas for the space of seven months. He states that in consequence of his first imprisonment, and his subsequent detention within the walls of the city of Caracas for seven months, his afResolutions to be fairs were greatly injured-especially a Mr. HUME quite agreed in the suggestion of his hon. Friend. The vote was one which would elicit considerable discussion, and could not be disposed of at that hour in the morning. He saw no reason why letters should not be sent to the colonies at a penny each as well as to the Channel Islands. In his opinion everything ought to be done to increase the means of communication between our colonial dependencies and the mother country. SIR FRANCIS BARING hoped the Committee would consent to go into the consideration of the vote at once, as the greater portion of it was under contract, and the details were very small. MR. W. WILLIAMS said, he would divide the Committee as long as he could get a single Member to go into the lobby with him, rather than proceed at that hour. He moved that the Chairman report progress. Motion agreed to. House resumed. reported To-morrow. The House adjourned at One o'clock. mmmmm HOUSE OF COMMONS, coffee estate, situate about two days' distance from Caracas, which was under his superintendence, was wasted in a great degree; and, after he was free, in conse quence of representations made by the British Government, the damages he incurred with respect to this coffee estate were assessed, according to the custom of the country, and by one of the legal tri1o Court of Chancery and Judicial Committee;bunals of the country, at the amount of Owners and Lessees of Mines (Ireland); l'harmacy. Friday, June 13, 1851. MINUTES. NEW MEMBER SWORN.-For Argyll shire, Sir Archibald Islay Campbell, Bart. 2o Administration of Criminal Justice Improve- 35,000 dollars. He states that, beyond this claim of 35,000 dollars, he has another of 25,000 dollars, in consequence of the insults and injuries he received, especially as regarded his business at Caracas. He CASE OF MR. GEORGE WARD AND THE states that, in consequence of not having VENEZUELAN GOVERNMENT. received any redress from the Government MR. DISRAELI: Sir, I beg leave to of Venezuela he has come over to Eng BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. LORD JOHN RUSSELL rose to move, pursuant to notice, that after the 1st of July the Orders of the Day should have precedence over notices of Motion. He made this Motion as, at this period of the Session, it was desirable to proceed with the business before them as fast as possible, especially that the House of Lords might have time to consider the Bills which they sent up. land, and that he has appealed to Her Majesty's Government, but hitherto in vain. He states, that there is no doubt of the validity of his claim on the Government of Venezuela, because that Government has partially recognised it, inasmuch as, in consequence of the representation of Her Majesty's Government, they apportioned compensation to the amount of 251. a day for the twenty-six days he was in the prison, making 6501., which he, under protest. has received, and which does not amount to the legal expenses he incurred in consequence of that imprisonment. He states that, not having received redress from Her Majesty's Government with respect to these claims on the Venezuelan Government, he has thought it his duty to appeal to the House of Commons. The petitioner is not an adventurer of doubtful allegiance who was a casual visitor to the city of Caracas; but he begs us to understand, which is the truth, that he is a British merchant, established there for more than twenty-seven years; that his commercial transactions are on the greatest scale and that it is mainly owing to his instrumentality that the commercial development of this country in those regions has taken place. He says that, unless protection to British merchants, in countries so imperfectly organised, and where the constitutional institutions are so rude, be secured at home, and by an English Par-measures before the House as to authorise liament, which this House has always af- the present appeal. forded, it will be impossible to carry on commercial affairs; and he protests against a State like Venezuela oppressing a British subject so long established in the country in the gross and vexatious manner which he has experienced, or that they should try to avoid all further responsibility, which, according to the law of nations, they have incurred by the miserable payment of 6501. He states that he has submitted his case to some of the most eminent lawyers of the day-to Dr. Phillimore, for instance, and to an hon. Member of this House, Sir Frederic Thesiger-and that he is advised that the conduct of Venezuela is a gross violation of international law. Under these circumstances he appeals to this House. It was my intention to address some inquiry on this subject to the Secretary of State if he was present; but, as he is not, I will do so on Monday. Petition to lie on the table. MR. DISRAELI said, that arrangement had been originally agreed to at a time when the Minister of the day introduced a variety of measures of the very greatest importance, and as the Members were anxious that these measures should be discussed, the sacrifice, which was a great one, was cheerfully made on the part of hon. Members; but he was not aware that there had been such a prodigal number of important Bills introduced during the current Session on the part of the Government, as to justify this demand. It was not his intention to divide the House on the Motion, but he thought it a dangerous precedent that they should agree to it as a matter of course, and therefore he had thought it his duty to point out that the noble Lord's proposition was made under very different circumstances from those under which it was originally made by a preceding Government. He did not think there were so many or such important MR. FITZSTEPHEN FRENCH justified the Motion on the ground that there were so many Irish Bills standing over. Among others he might mention the Medical Charities Bill, and the Land Valuation Bill, both of which were of great importance. SIR JOHN YOUNG said, the Medical Charities Bill had been thrown out of the House of Lords last Session in consequence of the lateness of the Session when it came before them. He suggested that it should be taken up at a morning sitting. SIR WILLIAM SOMERVILLE said, the Medical Charities Bill now stood for the 25th, and if it could not be brought forward on that day, it would be taken at a morning sitting. The Land Valuation Bill was set down for the 9th of July. MR. W. WILLIAMS thought it would be entirely surrendering the business of the House into the hands of Government if they agreed to this Motion. At the last ballot for precedence of Motions, no SIR BENJAMIN HALL rose to put a question to the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary. fewer than seventeen Members attended, well known that the attendance of hon. and he had come down to the ballot no Members began to slacken; and therefore fewer than six times without having had he thought it was desirable to proceed with the least chance of success. He must op- the Government measures now as rapidly pose this Motion, as he thought it would as possible. He might have stated, likeamount to an absolute prohibition of inde- wise, that the hon. Member for Montrose pendent Members bringing forward any (Mr. Hume) had asked him for a day on question. which he might bring forward his question respecting Borneo. The hon. Member certainly had a claim upon him, as, at the request of his noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, he had not brought forward his Motion at a time when he might have done so. On the other hand, Sir James Brooke was equally anxious that this question should be brought forward. But unless the present Motion was agreed to, the Government really could not spare a day from the other business of the country. He trusted, therefore, that the House would accede to the Motion. SIR CHARLES BURRELL rose to order. There was a Motion now before the House. SIR BENJAMIN HALL apprehended he was perfectly in order. The Motion related to the forwarding of business, and therefore he had a right to ask now, whether Government meant to bring in a Bill this Session to continue the present Commissioners of Sewers, or a Bill to reform the Commission? LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary meant to bring in a Bill upon the subject, but there would be an inconvenience in stating its provisions before it was introduced. With respect to the complaint of the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. W. Williams), he did not think it was well founded, because the whole of Wednesday was given to individual Members to bring on their Bills. The House would recollect that the Government were now called upon more than at any former time to introduce measures of legislation; and, besides, it was their duty to bring on questions relating to supplies, both military, naval, and miscellaneous, which now occupied much longer time than they formerly did. Besides, in the early period of the Session, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays were at the disposal of individual Members; and it was necessary to bring on the Estimates for the year at an early period, because Motions were made on going into Committees of Supply, which consumed a considerable portion of their time. At the most, Government had only eight days in a month at the beginning of a Session; and when hon. Gentlemen said, as they sometimes did, that the House had sat two months, and Government had not brought forward their Bills, the fact was, that of these two months, Government had only had sixteen days, and several of these were taken up with other measures in which the country felt an interest. So that the time of the Session was not so much taken up by the Government as it was supposed to be. But at that period of the Session, it was LORD NAAS agreed with the hon. Member for Roscommon (Mr. F. French), that the Irish Bills were very important; but as it appeared that these were to be taken at morning sittings, and as there was very little other Government business, he must oppose the Motion now before them. MR. H. HERBERT wished to know whether Government meant to reintroduce this Session a Bill which was withdrawn last year, relating to the Incumbered Estates, and called Securities Advance Bill. SIR GEORGE GREY said, his right hon. and learned Friend the Master of the Rolls had already given notice of a Bill for that purpose, and the only reason he did not proceed with it was the delay caused by the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill. SIR ROBERT INGLIS said, the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. W. Williams) had complained of being deprived of private legislation. Now, though he was not one of the supporters of Her Majesty's Ministers, he must say that he greatly preferred their legislation to that of the hon. Member for Lambeth. There was another reason why he supported the Motion, and that was that he had no wish to remain in that House up to October; and he was sure that the lowest estimate of the time that would be necessary for every Member who had a Bill to carry it through would be the middle of September. Under these circumstances, and considering that all his noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) asked, was no more than his predecessors had obtained before him, he thought they ought to accede to the Motion. |