sure;-though I confess I have never let this matter trouble me as it seems to do some of my neighbours.

A. No, so it seems; and to tell you the truth, we have many of us wondered that you have always been so quiet about this business, for we have always considered you to be a man who looked upon things in the proper way, and understood what was right.

O. Why, Mr. Ashfield, I wish to do what is right, if I can; and I would not defraud any man of a penny, if I knew it.

A. We all have that opinion of you, Mr. Oldham, -but still we do not understand why you are so easy about paying tithes, when so many others make a piece of work about it..

O. Why, I'll give you two reasons for that, in a moment. I think, if I made any objection to this payment I should not be acting like an honest man; this is one reason.

A. How so ?

O. Why, because, when I took my farm from my landlord, I knew that it was not tithe-free, and I paid less rent according: and, if I should now try to put the money into my own pocket which my landlord has allowed me, I should be guilty of a direct robbery.

A. Why, that seems true enough to be sure ;-but you said you had another reason for being quiet on this point; what may that reason be?

O. Why, because making a stir would do me no good.

A. How so?

O. Why, if I did not call it tithe, and pay it to the minister, I must call it rent, and pay it to the landlord and what difference can this make to me? You know my New Cross Farm is tithe-free, and so I pay twenty-six shillings an acre for it; and the Old Cross Farm is not tithe-free, and it is just the same sort of land; and I pay only twenty shillings for it, because of the tithe so that, if I had no tithe to pay, my land

A Talk about Tithes, between two Farmers. 185

lord would charge me as much for that as the other; and it is well worth it.

A. Why, then, you make out that the tithe plan costs us farmers nothing; but that it all falls on the landlord.

O. That is my opinion.

A. But don't you think it hard that the landlord should be burthened with tithe?

O. Why, it seems to me, that, if any body chose to leave me an estate of a thousand pounds a year, and had required me to pay one hundred out of this for the support of a regular minister of the parish, I should have considered that he had left me nine hundred a year, and that he had left the minister one hundred; and I should have felt much obliged to him for what he left me, as he need not have left me anything unless he had pleased.

A. But your son or grandson might be disposed to complain, that any part of the estate was left away from them.

O. Yes, and any man, with any estate whatever, may complain that it is not bigger,-if he allows himself to encourage a discontented mind.

A. Why, yes!-Mr. Johnson left four thousand pounds a year to his relation Mr. Sims, and he need not have left him a farthing, but he left one thousand pounds a year to his friend, Mr. Willis ;-but Mr. Sims did not think of grumbling because he had not the whole.

O. No, to be sure not;-and if he had gone, and tried by force to take away the other thousand from Mr. Willis, he would have been guilty of the same sort of robbery as those who would take away the tithes from those to whom they have been left.-Mr. Sims had no more right to take away Mr. Willis's share, than Mr. Willis had to take away Mr. Sims's share.

A. Then, you don't wish to see any change in the plan of gathering the tithes?

O. Yes: I should be glad to see some change;-not

for our sakes, but to save the clergyman the plague which he often has to undergo.

A. Why, I know you were always friendly to the clergy, and you have always been particular about going to church.

O. Why, "let every man speak as he finds," as the saying is. I have had a great deal to do with the clergy, and I will say that I have always found them very liberal in these matters;-and, as to going to church, I should be miserable if I had not an opportunity of worshipping God on the Sabbath, with the minister and the people.

A. But some ministers think more of the tithes than of their duty.

O. Neither you nor I can help that;-I am not defending negligence in the clergy, for I consider it a most grievous sin,-and for this sin a minister is answerable to God:-but, if we were to attempt to take away the maintenance which has been left to the clergy, we should put it out of our power to have any minister at all.

A. Yes and many people would not care for that.

O. But I should ;—and I know very well, too, that, besides the religious good which we get from the clergy, they spend the money which they receive; and it is quite as well for us that the clergyman should have the spending it as the landlord.

A. Yes: I like the plan, myself, of having a clergyman to spend his money among the villagers; and very often they spend some of their own money, besides what they get from the Church.

O. Yes I believe that the greater part of the clergy bring something to spend amongst us besides what they receive ;-not one in fifty receives as much from the Church as will maintain himself and his family.

A. But some of them have large incomes.

O. Yes: but so many have small ones, that, if all

A Talk about Tithes, between two Farmers. 187

were equally divided, there would be very little for each one. I cannot help grieving when I hear people talk of the Church oppressing them; because the truth is, that the clergy are paid by what has been long ago left to them, and without burden to the people; and, also, because I am sure that when the expense of education and all other outgoings are considered, a gentleman who goes into the Church is worse paid for his time and labours than any man, in any liberal profession or trade in this kingdom.

A. Then, why do so many gentlemen go into the Church?

O. Hundreds of them, I am persuaded, go for the purpose of becoming the means of doing good to others; and they are willing to labour for little, and to spend their own private income too, in the service of religion.

Ă. I think there are some such.

O. I am sure there are many such. I hardly know of any clergyman within many miles of us who lives upon what he gets from the Church.

A. But some go in for what they can get.

O. No doubt of it. But these are not the best men : and no alteration that we can make, could prevent some such instances of this.

A. But suppose there was no establishment for religion, would there be an end of all preaching?

O. No, I cannot believe that :-good people who liked the Church service would be willing enough to unite to pay a minister; dissenters do this now; and so do Church people in places where no church has been built. Persons have built chapels in such places; and the people pay for their sittings ;-and the clergyman generally receives much more in this way for his services than the average of clergymen receive from the tithes.

A. Then, if there were an end of the tithes and the Church establishment, those people who wished to wor

ship God in public, would have to pay out of their own pockets, instead of going to church without expense, as they generally do now.

O. Yes: and those who could not afford to pay, would have no opportunity of going to Church at all; and many would never wish to go if it were to cost them any thing: it surely is better that an opportunity should be afforded to every one of going to the parish church; and thus, they who at first go from a mere habit, and without much religion, may learn that which shall be a blessing to them for ever: surely every Christian government ought to take care that there is this opportunity for every one; and I say that, as far as the money goes, the present plan is the best for the people, because the expense does all certainly fall on the landlord, and on nobody else.

A. Then you think that the present plan of tithes is the best of all, and that nothing can be done that is better?

O. I don't say any such thing: I only mean that the present plan does not hurt the people ;-if any thing could be done better for the cause of religion, I should be glad to see it done.

A. But I have laid hold of some little papers lately that talk about the riches of the clergy, and say that the people are beggared by paying them.

:

O. Yes there are such mischievous tracts sold in the streets, but the poorest and most ignorant person in the parish can see at once that what they say is false.

A. But I read, the other day, that some clergy had thousands a year.

O. If some clergy have thousands a year, it hurts neither you, nor me, nor the poor. If these things can be managed better, I say, for the cause of religion, well and good; but if the clergyman has the spending of this money, instead of the squire, how are we the worse off for it.