desired a member then present to take notice of it. ་ Colonel Austen. I was desired by your member to take notice, &c. I will tell you what it was. When Churchill appeared at the Admiralty, it was asked, on behalf of one Bremstead, Whether he knew he was a coward? He said,He would not give an account out of the house, for what he had said in the house.' But the question was, ' Whether he had not said it in other places? It was said, It was in the power of the Board to give him an oath ;' but it was not insisted on at the Board. The case was this: the king was petitioned for a man's life, condemned to be shot to death for a coward. It was referred by the king to the Board. The end of enquiring of Churchill was, whether this man was fit to be pardoned; but there was not any question, as to what was said here. Col. Churchill. I think that question was pressed upon oath. And that question was asked me, after I had refused, and I would not take an oath, till I had the direction of the house. Sir Edw. Seymour. I hardly understand the accusation. They desire to know the reason, why, for their information, he accused this man for being a coward. I am as tender of privilege as any man, but I do not take this as a design to subvert your privilege. the house of commons, but of words said without doors; and he was not interrogated to any thing said in the house. Mr. Goodwin Wharton. The matter is stated truly and rightly. As the information is made, the next thing is to consider, whether it be a breach of privilege; which you cannot do till the parties withdraw. If they had sent for him, a commander in the Fleet, either for matters said in or out of the house, they could not, without leave of the house. This concerns the privilege of the house and liberty of speech. Lord Falkland. Here is a complaint; and, if you can, have indifferent persons to inform you the right state of the thing. Sir Christ. Musgrave. I think no man ought to be interrogated of matters said in this house. It is said, the matter is not agreed. You having it upon your Paper, can tell how far the matter is not agreed. Sir John Lowther. If the words be admitted, whither shall this privilege extend? Here is uo suit, nor answering without doors what has been said within; where is the hurt of all this? It is only to be informed of a person. Mr. Clarke. I hear some call for the Order of the day, but I think this matter is not to be so dismissed. I will conclude all to be true, if the objections are not answered. Col. Churchill. I do declare, that, if the house please to pass it by, I do. Col. Austen. From the beginning, I told him, He was not sent for, for words said in the house.' I do not say the word trifling,' was not said, but I must affirm I heard nothing of it; he will do me that right. I was a bystander, and said nothing. Mr. Foley. As this is complained of, it is a great breach of the privilege of the house. Many members are officers, and if they must be called to account in another place, for what is done here, there is an end of privilege. They ask him of what was said in this house, and when he spoke of the privilege of the house, Col. Churchill. The telling of the man's they told him of tendering an oath, and after-life condemned, &c. was the latter end of the wards told him, he spoke it in another place; but not till he spoke of the privilege of the house. Mr. Hampden. I do not see that your member was questioned for what he said in the house; but here was a person condemned for a coward, and application was made to the king for mercy to be shewn him, and they would inform themselves of the man. Evidence is desired from the greatest man of the kingdom, if it fall out to be a member. I do not see how privilege is concerned at all. Here is no subpoena, but desire of appearance. Sir Christ. Musgrave. I speak to the method of proceeding. You have had an information from your member; I suppose it is upon your Paper; pray read it, and when it is stated, every gentleman may apply himself to it. Colonel Churchill. I take it, I was examined as a member of parliament. I said, 'I was not obliged to answer, being words spoken in the house of commons, without their leave.' Sir John Lowther told me, They had power to give me an oath, if I trifled with them;' but I would not answer without leave of the house. Sir John Lowther, (a Commissioner of the Admiralty.) The matter of fact, and the words are entirely denied. There was not a word of discourse, not the beginning. Till after my refusal of the oath, they spoke nothing; I said "I would have nothing to do with the blood of the man.' Sir Robert Rich. We had no scruple to ask hin what was said out of the house. It is true, he said the words in the house, but having said the words out of the house, we thought we might interrogate him of them. We have traced the office, and out of the office, and can find nothing of hin. There was hardly any ship had more meu killed and wounded in it than his ship; but if it could be proved that he was a coward, he must die; and I hope the house will permit us to search into this, to inform the king of it. Sir Christ. Musgrave. I think you should declare, That no Member be examined for what he has said here.' Neither must it go for doctrine that a man may declare without doors what has been said here, and the intention of the thing must not alter the thing. Col. Titus. Do you think that this is a new privilege? This is calling that in question, that was ever out of question. The Speaker. It had been a civil thing, and a reasonable thing, for the admiralty to have told Churchill, They had no intent to interro gate him as to any thing said in the house.'This matter passed over without any vote, * Farther Debate on the Bill for regulating Trials in Cases of Treason.] The house went into a grand committee, on the Bill for regulating Trials in cases of Treason. Sir Thomas Clarges. This is a necessary bill for preservation of the government, and the king's person, The hardships the nation endured in constructive Treason was one of the greatest motives and inducements to the late change; and, amongst other things, the regulation of Trials for Treason was one of the Heads presented to the king to be redressed. At Henry 4th's coming to the crown, there was a revolution as strange and extraordinary as this. The first he made was reducing the Trials for Treason to the 25th of Edw. 3. Why? To let the people see, they were secure in their lives and estates. Since the king came to the government, it has been set out in several Acts how Judgment of Treason was perverted. Our public faith to the nation was engaged in such a Bill as this. This is the way to reconcile all people. This is only as much as to say; corruptions were in the Judges, and you will not remedy that before the 25th Edw. 3, Common-Law Treasons were so numerous, that nobody could tell what to do; and that of the 25th Edw. 3 was made, because there were so many constructions then, and now so lately. I know not how much wiser we are now than we were the last session, when this passed here, and the lords put a clog upon it. This is the means to quiet men's spirits. Sir Edw. Hussey. To fill up the blank, That the Bill shall not commence till the end of the French war,' is, nobody knows when. We have heard lately of a Plot, but whether a plot or no plot, we know not. I would fill up the blank, for the Bill to commence in Jan. 1693, or 1694.' If by that time the government be not settled, it will not be at all. we have learned since last session, we shall be more considerate now. The danger from Westminster-Hall is, when Parliaments are not frequent; it is impossible, in these circumstances of war we are in, that parlaments should not meet. This is enough to satisfy me, that the danger is not from hence; and I move, That this Bill may commence from the time the French War shall be ended.' Mr. Harley. I suppose it out of doubt, that we are in danger of our enemies; will putting off this bill secure you? The best way to secure the government is to set men at ease. Possibly the king, in his Speech, may have particularly pointed out this Bill, because the only public bill that slipped the last session. I join in the motion, That it commence in January next.' Mr. Finch, You have been moved to fill up the blankTo commence from and after the expiration of the French War.' When I con sider the motion, I admire: it is a good reason why the Bill should never take place. We are told of Plots and Conspiracies, and that the bill should not pass now, because of them. The meaning of that must be supposed, that it is very difficult to bring a guilty man to punishment. If SO, I would not have the bill com mence after the war, but never. Therefore, I cannot but wonder, that, because of Plots, the Bill should not commence till after the war, therefore pray let it never commence at all! But this begs the question, whether this bill brings difficulty upon the government? Consider, it has once passed the house, been examined, and laid open, and then it was thought requisite. But you are told, There is no danger of misconstruction of Treason whilst parliaments are sitting, and so they will be during the War.' I have heard in this house of misconstruction of Treason, judged by the very present Judges. If such misconstructions have been, they are very ancient, and still used. The matter of this Bill provides no more, than that an innocent man may have opportunity to make his innocence appear, How often has it been said, that denial of a Copy of the Indictment to the prisoner is against law, and Records shewed to verify that? All the Judges before denied copies of Indict Sir Henry Goodrick. I have heard it said, and without contradiction, That king James's friends are plotting.' If this king had not extraordinarily stopped his hands, he had made many examples. No doubt there was a Plot; many horse officers came to town-Your safety is already shaken, and I hope you will consider the king's safety so far as not to let this Billments; so they do still. That was one thing commence before the end of the French war. Mr. Solicitor Trevor. I offer, that the filling up of the blank may be, From the end of the French War' and what moves me to it is, that from thence the danger of the government | proceeds: and to prevent the great danger, and not go upon an imaginary danger. Whether is the greater danger, from your enemies, or an imaginary one of injustice from WestminsterHall? It is said by Clarges, He wonders we are grown wiser this session than the last.' Nobody thinks the French made that attempt, but from encouragement here. I hope, by what # This debate is not mentioned in the Journal. laid as a hardship upon criminal proceedings before. Is this a hindrance of justice? I do solemnly protest, that if any man will show that one part of the bill acquits a guilty man, I will be against that part, but till then I must not take it for granted, that it is a bill to cover criminals. Therefore I concur with the mo tion To commence January 25.' Sir Christ. Musgrave. As this Clause is ar raigned, I think every man should declare it not to be a protection to guilty men. In the beginning of the Convention, this was thought necessary; but now it is thought to hinder bringing criminals to justice. You are told by the Solicitor-General, There are no appre hensions of the judges, because of the frequency 8 B of parliaments.' But if the matter desired be reasonable, we ought to keep it out of the power of the Judges. I have known Judges make juries go out three times upon ignoramus. We find very forward witnesses of late; one now in Newgate, parson Young*, who accused the bishop of Rochester of Treason: is it not prudent to prevent such practices? If he had succeeded, the persons must have died. I cannot imagine why the government should be weakened, because a copy of the Indictment must be given the prisoners. At the free Conference, the last session, I heard a great man say,This Bill was not a new law, but a declarative law, and not enacting a new law,' Why should we not rectify that which the Judges say is no law? Therefore I move That this may commence Jan. 25th next.' Sir John Lowther. It has been said, 'That a great many have been committed for Treason, and not prosecuted.' For that very reason, I am against that part of the bill. They are not only enemies, by their own confession, and we cannot prosecute them now, and yet we must have this bill to make prosecution more ditficult. Were you a settled government, this bill would be more proper than now. If they think this bill will be a protection, though but imaginary, and not real, it will be an encouragement to *"This Robert Young being committed to Newgate, till he discharged a Fine imposed upon him, one Pearson, a prisoner in the same place for debt, perceiving Young to be very expert in counterfeiting hands, told bim, "That if he could contrive a Plot, and father it upon the earls of Marlborough and Salisbury, Dr. Thomas Sprat, bishop of Rochester, and some others, he might soon have money enough to pay his Fine.' Young gladly accepted the proposal, but told Pearson, That nothing could be done in that matter, till he was released :' which, in a short time, was effected by a certain stratagem. Young happened to procure the earl of Marlborough's hand, which he counterfeited so exactly, that it was very difficult to distinguish the true from the false. Afterwards he drew up an Association, and affixed to it the hands of the earls of Marlborough and Salisbury, as also sir Basil Firebrace, the bishop of Rochester, and lord Cornbury's, which two last were written by another hand. One Blockhead went three times to the bishop of Rochester's house at Bromley in Kent, with a fictitious errand from a supposed Dr. of Divinity, but with no other intention than to convey the forged Association into a secret place, where it was afterwards found by the king's messenger, who, upon information given by Young against that prelate, came first to secure his person, and then to search his house. His lordship was for some days under confinement; but upon a strict examination of the whole matter before the Council, and the confronting of Blackhead with Young, the Forgery was evidently discovered, and his lordship's innocence made manifest." Tindal. designs against the government. There may be a reason for this bill, but now this looks like lessening the prerogative, as is said, but properly it lessens your strength of government. If liberty go beyond its bounds, it is no more so, but licence. As the law now stands, it cannot touch such offenders, therefore I would not weaken it more by this bill. Sir Tho. Clarges. This bill must be passed, in the result, by the king, and nobody else. I an afraid the king is informed that this Bill is prejudicial to his security; but it was the Advice of the last parliament, that, for the security of the king, such a bill was necessary; and as the law stands now, witnesses for the prisoners are on their words, and not their oaths; this bill is, that they should not extravagantly say what they will. I think this bill therefore is for the king's safety. Mr. Comptroller Wharton. I am one of those that have always been for such a bill, and shall ever be. I cannot think people too easy upon their Trials. I am of opinion that those gentlemen would not alter the law during the war, nor the practice of it. There are such jealousies and such cases, that I fear it impossible to answer, when people own not the goverument; and one is, that the king has no right to the crown, and therefore we cannot alter the law: But unless something be done to this purpose, when our eyes are open, and in a little more security, not to commence till the end of the War; then you may have this law to posterity. We shall have peace, or else not be a nation. Let it be as easy to hang a great man, as it was to hang lord Russel. I would pass the Bill for posterity, and fill up the blank, Not to commence till the end of the War.' Col. Granville. I shall never countenance any thing against the government. I came into the Change as early as any body to the govern ment, and will be the last that shall go out of it. I wonder that gentlemen of the PrivyCouncil, should complain of men riding armed, and that they are not laid by the heels; but to tell you, that such a bill should pass, and no certain time limited when it should commence, is a contradiction. But the best time to have this bill, is when we can get it. Now we have a good prince on the throne, and no more seasonable time than now. The Judges tell you, 'One witness, with circumstances, is sufficient to convict a man of Treason;' but to let men come out of prison, after having been long detained, and nothing against them; and since there have been practices of forging hands, as in the bishop of Rochester's case, it is very seasonable to have such a Bill, Sir John Lowther. Without a special commission of Oyer and Terminer, it is impossible to bring these then to Trisi. Mr. Finch. You have been told who are for and who against this bill without doors; those I would regard. It is said, Those who have not taken the Oaths to the government, are for this bill.' I did, and am for it. The objection against it is; Make not prosecution houses might so well and so specdily be brought of Treason more dithcult now, than in former to that concurrence, which is necessary to renreigns.' A great man was named: (I can der their Advice effectual. 2. Because it apeasily guess why.) Was that great man prose- pears by some Papers already imparted to this cuted illegally, and therefore pray continue it house, that several members of the house of so? These very Judges have resolved the same commons are concerned in the matters before point of law. That which makes truth appear, us, as having been so lately employed in his ma(which is the design of this Bill) makes it im- jesty's service; and we conceive it the easiest, possible that a guilty man should escape. I properest and fairest way of communication befind eyes were upon me, when the things were tween the two houses, to have so great and stirred, urging a point of law, in lord Delamere's important a business transacted and prepared Trial, That one witness with circumstances, in a committee so chosen. 3. Because it canand violent circumstances, was sufficient.' I not be expected, that so many members of the say so now. If there be any fault in it, it is house of commons, from whom we shall need what all nations concur in. It is said, 'That information, can, in any other manner, be here men ride armed, and declare the king has no present so often, though with the leave of their right to the crown, and are for king James.' I house, as will be necessary for a sufficient enattended the answer, and it was said, 'There quiry into the several affairs now under consiwas no good proof.' If proof, why are not deration. 4. Because if the house of commons these men punished? It is said, 'That men intend also to give Advice to his majesty, it is. can point out, who are for, and who against the very probable that both houses may receive government.' It is a hard circumstance for such information severally, as will be thought men to be pointed out, to be slandered by the fit to be communicated as soon as possible; and eye, and to expose them to the fury of the rabwe conceive no way of doing that can be so ble. If circumstances be strong against a man, proper or speedy as in a committee of both he ought to be brought to trial. The Judges houses. 5. Because in a time of such imminent have judged, That one witness, with pregnant danger to the nation, by reason of so many circumstances, is proof against a man; and Miscarriages as are supposed generally to be they having so judged, it is time for the parlia- committed, the closest and strictest union of ment to declare what are pregnant circum- both houses is absolutely necessary to redeem stances. I think this is no hardship upon the us from all that ruin, which, we have too much government, and therefore I am for it. I think cause to fear, is coming upon us. (Signed) no Englishman can be safe, if the king be not Shrewsbury, Stamford, Monmouth, Crewe, Torsafe upon the Throne; and the establishment rington, Granville, Marlborough, Aylesbury, of him there is the security of every English-Cholmondeley, Mulgrave, Cornwallis, Vaughan, man, and this Bill does do it, and it is no hard- De Longueville, Montagu, Bath, Macclesfield, ship upon the government, only without it it is Warrington, Fitzwalter.*" impossible for an innocent man to make his innocence appear. Mr. Comptroller Wharton. I think that the Privy-Council are not in fault. I have an ill opinion of some, but no proof against them.-The report was ordered to be made on Thursday. Question for Conference passed in the Negative.] Dec. 7. The house of lords having been in a committee of the whole house in order to the giving Advice to his majesty, and considering the Papers brought in by the earl of Nottingham; and being resumed, the question was put, Whether this house shall now send to the house of commons for a Conference, and to propose to them, that a Committee of both houses should be appointed to consider of the present State of the Nation, and what Advice to give his majesty upon it? It was resolved in the negative: Contents 36, Not contents 48. Protest thereon.] Leave having been asked and given, that some lords might protest, if the above-said question was carried in the negative, these lords whose names are underwritten do enter their Protestation in the Reasons following:-" 1. Because his majesty, having particularly and expressly desired the Advice of his parliament at this time, when he so much seems to need it, no other method was, or, in our opinions, could be proposed, by which the two It "Their lordships, as we have seen, had resolved to advise as well as the commons. They set out with a supposition, that the king had asked their Advice; whereas, he had only dropped the word by the way, in hopes that nobody would think it worth picking up; and they were disposed to give him, if not more than he wanted, more than he would use. was, however, the 28th of Nov. before they could agree on the first Head; and then, as well in compliment to lord Marlborough, as to attack the court in its weakest place, they opened their batteries against the foreign interest, by resolving to advise his majesty, to employ one of his English subjects to be the commander in chief of his English forces. It was yet many days longer before they could agree on their next step; and in that interval it occurred to some of those who were most in earnest, and who best knew how infinitely difficult it was, to carry so vast and perplexed a business through all the forms of a numerous assembly, not only against the inclination, but the fundamental interests of the court, that, as each house were on the same quest, if they could so contrive it, as to procure the management to be vested in a joint committee of both, armed with proper powers and authorities, they should proceed with more ease, on surer grounds, and with Debate on Admiral Russell's Orders, &c.] | At the debates which follow, the compiler, Mr. Anchitell Grey was not present, but they were sent him down by friends into the country.* Mr. Wilmot, the other member for Derby, in a letter dated December 20,† says, 66 This is to acquaint you, that the lords this day desired a Conference, when they delivered over to us an abstract of all Letters and Orders betwixt the queen and lord Nottingham to admiral Russel, and those from him to them, the abbreviation made by the lords, but the letters, or copics, to justify and vouch the same, were also delivered. The abbreviation was made, Mr. Russel taking notes all the while, after which he answered, and explained all things very well, in my judgment, and would have been so, I believe, in yours. Indeed, resolved enemies could not but acquit him, as hereafter followed. I was near, and attentive, and did not find any more considerable than, what was in the papers delivered to us by Mr. Russel himself. The abbreviation only was read, and not the vouchers at large, but Mr. Russel's fiends thought the house was ripe for judgment by the abbreviation being read first. Mr. Comptroller Wharton made some speech in commendation of the admiral and his ser. vices, but more large in reflection on lord Not. tingham, and concluded with a motion 'to address the king to remove him.' This was seconded by sir John Morton. Then Mr. Smith: "The admiral having been thanked by the house for his services, and having been reflected on, or endeavoured to be so, in the house of lords, and all the papers transmitted us, my motion is, That it is for the purpose, to have our judgments thereon, and that we should declare, that he has, in the last summer's expedition, at sea, behaved himself with courage, conduct, and fidelity."" This was seconded by Mr. Palmes, sir Robert Howard, and Mr. Solicitor General Trevor.-Sir John Lowther said, I acknowledge as much the service of the Admiral as any, and profess myself ready to join in any vote, either to be clear or grateful to the admiral, but withal, I can no way yield to the motion of the Comptroller; for, of my knowledge, no man, with greater zeal, pains, or fidelity, I believe, can serve the government than lord Nottingham. I move therefore, Not to be jealous of one another, but to let the papers lie upon the table.'-But he was not seconded there. Many spoke to the motion of Mr. Smith, and more against it; till the question being about to be put, sir Chris. Musgrave said, It is improper yet to make any judgment, the vouchers not being read.'This was seconded by Mr. Bickerstaffe, Mr. Peregrine Bertie, and Mr. Dalton, and, I think, none else. At last the question moved by Mr. Smith being put, passed nem. con. not much against the grain. I should have told you, that Mr. Finch, with all respect and acknowledgement first paid to the Admiral, reflected what he could, in his fine way, upon him, but it was the Letters of Mr. Russel that made more certainty of success. Accordingly, this notion of theirs was communicated to the rest, who warmly espoused it; and on the 7th of Dec. it was moved for in the house, and supported with all the arguments, adorned with all the eloquence, and animated with all the spirit of the party; against which the court opposed their whole phalanx, that is to say, all the lords of the Cabinet, except the lord steward Devon-reflection upon him, if any were; and in an shire, all those other lords, whose consciences swer to the Solicitor's speech, who said, 'He were under the dominion of their Places and was by sly insinuation reflected on,' conPensions, and all the bishops present, except cluded with Musgrave's motion. After the Watson, bishop of St. David's. These altoge- question carried nem. con. Mr. Russel stood ther made up 48, whereas the others were but up, and said, I am happy in having such a 36. And thus, after a long debate, the courtiers judge and jury as the house of commons, and became masters of the field of battle; while the will never desire any other, but will thereto vanquished covered their retreat with a thun- submit all my actions. He afterwards said, dering Protest; which was signed in the first It has been very difficult and uneasy to me to place by lord Shrewsbury, &c.of whom above serve in these two Summers Expeditions, where, three fourths were eminent Revolutioners; besides the great charge of my place, I was which deserves so much the more notice, be- obliged not to tread awry, for fear of the micause bishop Burnet, speaking of this proposi-nisters, which was to me a great discouragetion of theirs, is pleased to say, That it was what had never been offered, but when the nation was ready to break out into civil wars; and, that if it had once been admitted, it would have grown in a short time into a Council of State, which would soon have brought all affairs under their inspection." Ralph. ment, and would be to any man who shall com- About this time, Mr. John Hampden pub-in lished a remarkable pamphlet, entitled "Some short Considerations concerning the State of the Nation," a copy of which will be found in the Appendix, No. VII. It appears by the Journal, that Mr. Anchitell Grey had leave to go into the country for the recovery of his health, Dec. 16. Bill touching free and impartial Proceedings in Parliament.] Dec. 22. A bill passed the commons entitled, An Act touching free and |