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that they are satisfied with his account; and that he was dismissed from further attendance." Debate on employing Foreign General-Officers.] Nov. 21. Captain Mordaunt*. I wish the king would reward and punish more than he does; trumpeters and corporals have been made Officers: And I receive not the third part of my pay, to keep up the grandeur of my place of captain. I cannot believe that 14,000 came over out of Ireland. I believe that most people that came over, came for getting. If that be not the reason of the vast debt in Ireland, I hope we shall have another reason.[The Compiler heard him imperfectly.]

Sir Tho. Clarges. We have been told of great Misdemeanors in Ireland; the government is divided there into civil and military hands. I would know, who had the command of the Army in Ireland, lord Coningsby, or lord Athlone ?

Sir Peter Colleton. There are many brave men in the nation, and some sit in your house, qualified for General-Officers, and there is no need of Foreign General-Officers. The foreigners would have raised the siege of Athlone; the foreign generals were against storming; but an English general was for it, and it was taken: for ought I know, had it not been done, Ireland had been still to reduce. Englishmen naturally love their country, and will not willingly destroy their country. Foreigners cannot have that affection for England. When king James set up to overthrow parliaments and property, the English officers gave up their commands. We know not how soon we may fight for our all on English ground. I think we are much safer in English hands than in Foreigners. None are ignorant of the melancholy story of Steenkirk; every one knows that tragedy. The common soldiers had no opinion of their Officers. I move, "That none but Natives should command Englishmen."

Mr. Wharton. The thing is just, to encou rage Englishmen, and as long as there is a necessity of a war, I would continue it on our own foundation. We want not Foreign Officers; we have natives fit for employment. Nothing but an English Army can preserve our English liberties and properties. Encourage them to be entirely English, from the soldiers to the officers.

Lord Falkland. I have as much esteem for English officers as any body, but the king, who is a witness of their actions and merits, is the best judge. I would have that come only from the king. You know not what officers the king designs. When you come to the State of the War, it will be proper to speak to this then.

Sir Edw. Seymour. I wonder, that, on such a subject as this and so little debating upon it,

Second son of lord viscount Avilon, and nephew to the earl of Peterborough. He was member for Brackley, and in 1699, was appointed Treasurer of the Ordnance. He died in 1719.

See p. 707), Note,

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gentlemen call for the question so suddenly. I shall only observe, that there is a great deal of difference in what came from Brackley (Mordaunt) and what from town. There was nothing of mutiny for want of pay, but for the reason of it; Subsistence money was regularly paid, sixpence a day, but threepence, the offreckonings, was for cloathing and necessaries. This has been punctually paid. It is true, officers have but half pay, and as for trumpeters, &c. it was rectified, because, under the notion of officers for Ireland, there are Commissioners stating the Accounts of Quarters, how much is owing to the country. Thus much I can say, this falls not out by chance. We have had experience, that Officers, to whom money has been paid, lave defrauded the soldiers, and let the soldiers do what they will, as to that-In relation to Foreign Officers, that fell not out by chance it was necessity, and not chance. Men are not born generals. A man may be a good officer, and not a good general. We have not of our own men fit for that employment: the king knows men, and I hope you will not offer the king men unfit. Men that get into employment, think it an injury if they are not captains presently. Men that have not gone through all employments, can never be fit for the Army, or Navy, and return with all disadvantage. What number have you fit for General-Officers? They are few; and will you think to discharge and send away Foreigners, till you have generals of your own? I am not for foreigners, for foreigners sake. If we have not General-Officers of our own fit for this employment, I hope you will not put the Foreign Officers out.

Captain Mordaunt. I hope, as good advice may come from Brackley as from Exeter (Seymour.) If there are ill men, both in the State and Army, I care not how soon they are punished. Great men have had great sums in Ireland, that have nearly cleared the pay. As for General-Officers, I would have no man discharged, that has done well by the English officers. I have served under foreigners, who did very well, and I hope they will be excepted.

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Sir John Lowther. I find some ambiguity in the question, viz. That, for the future, no foreign general-officers shall command Englishmen. What will you do with those you have? The great ignorance of military affairs, in king James's Ariny, was not one of the least advantages of the Revolution, by the conduct of these foreign officers; when an army is only for parade at home, and nothing to be done abroad. From the foreign officers we had experience. I do not question, but in two years, we may have general-officers of our own, but we have lost four general-officers, which is a great many, and no wonder we have so few. It is the proper business of the crown to bestow marks of favour on the general-officers, and I doubt not but the king will take care to do it. Therefore I would not put this question.

Sir Ch. Sedley. I think it the highest ingra

titude to turn out those generals. These gentlemen have been the king's companions of his arms; it will be hard upon the king to turn them out.

But if so many are cut off, I fear the king's expectation will not be answered with success, without English officers; but if we are so unhappy as not to trust English officers, it is Earl of Ranelagh. No man shall be more impossible but, by the date of their commisfor the advantage of England, or Englishmen, sions, that English Officers should come to prethan myself; but pray look into the matter of ferment. Every private soldier, and officer, fact. The king has not resolved on his ge- thinks he has an interest in the laws and relineral-officers for 1693. For the present, there gion. From this ingratitude to the Officers, are two generals, five lieut. generals, five you have lost the discipline of the Army, bemajor-generals, and ten brigadiers. If you cause they are not commanded by those of examine their names, you will find two lieut. their own country; and then you shall not generals, English born, the earl of Oxford, and have that licence of free quarter. You had general Talmash; the duke of Schomberg, M. an Act within an hour of passing, against Free Auverquerque, the earl of Portland, and the Quarter; I know not how it slipped, by what duke of Leinster, are naturalized. The old counsel; but for quarters in private houses, duke of Schomberg's son you will look upon as mens hearts begin to be alienated. I know naturalized. There are six brigadiers that are not well when Subsistence began, for formerly English. The last session, every one of these the Army was paid every two months; but men had the approbation of the house, and then a scheme was made, so much for the money given them; and not one of these but Army and Contingencies; and then nothing ventured their lives for reducing Ireland, and was added to the Establishment of the Army, delivering you from Popery and slavery. Par- but by the two Secretaries, the Council of War, don me, if I say, this will look ungrateful. An and the Lord Treasurer; this was then, and the army composed of several nations must have secretaries of state did not offer a commission, generals in several places. In the last cam- till established. To this day, there is no Estapaign, the king made three natives major-gene-blishment of the Army. But if the king is rals, viz. the duke of Ormond, the earl of Scar-misguided by false lights, I know not where it borough, and col. Bellasis. Douglas, Kirk, and will end. What is intended, is for the service Lanier were lost. We know not who the of the king; but as for foreign generals, I think king intends for general-officers this year, 1693; it is for the king's service that English Forces and if, upon the list, you find any foreigners be commanded by natives. that you approve not of, then is the time, when the king has determined it, to address him.

Sir Tho. Clarges. We are told by the honourable person, That one chief governor of Ireland could not redress the disorder of the Army, because he had not the command of the army; but he should have told you who commanded. I was of the Council in Ireland, in 1662 and 1663. I know, though the Army for some time had not two months pay, there was no complaint; but there was a contribution of provision settled; things were quiet then, and the lands were planted, and the loss equally distributed but the reason of the disorder might happen from the generals, who do not understand the nature of Ireland. You are told, We can have no general English born, and therefore we must inake use of foreigners.' I can name ten, who, if they were now in France, would be marshals of France at this day. If they have served 20 or 30 years in foreign wars, I believe they are as fit as any foreigners. It is true, they are not earls and lords; they are private men. I have known troopers, and foot-officers, risen up to be fit for generals; many that have served in Portugal and Tangier. It is impossible that the king could know this, if men about him will not inform him. It is said, by lord Ranelagh, You have approved of them, and given them money.' I thought such a List, as he has named, sufficient to command 100,000 men.

* Sir Robert Douglas, and sir John Lanier, were killed in the Battle of Steenkirk.

Lord Colchester. I find the business of Steenkirk sticks with some gentlemen. The chief occasion of the ill success there was the wrong information given to the king of the ground we were to pass, which was so full of hedges and woods, that we could not draw up one body to sustain another; horse and foot were mingled. I saw the attack made by Fagel; Dutch, English, and all nations: they beat the French from hedge to hedge, but their very weight of men bore us down. The French came up to us, and Auverquerque came up, and behaved himself as well as any man in the world. He sent us two Danish regiments, and we retreated to the main body, and from thence to the main camp. Others can give you an account; but as for what lord Castleton has said, it must be by hearsay; he was not there himself.

Col. Earle, No man is of less sufficiency to speak than myself. I have had the honour to serve in three or four parliaments, and have not troubled you. I was a colonel of foot in the engagement at Steenkirk, where the ground was mistaken, and so we were forced to retreat. As to the question, no man is more pleased than I for English Officers to command the English

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Army; but I do not think that 3 or 4 years service can make a general. I wish we had men fit; but before you have them, pray do not rid yourselves of all foreign generals. I hope, when you come to the question, you will not part with all the foreign generals, before you can have some of your own to come in their places. Col. Godfrey. I find gentlemen possessed with great Miscarriages, especially at the Engagement at Steenkirk. The difficulty was so great, that, if we had not succeeded, it might have been the loss of Flanders: Other nations, as well as the king of England's subjects, and particularly the Dutch battalion, did bebave themselves with great honour; but whether they came down early enough, may be doubted. The French poured so many dragoons on us, that there was no standing; so the prudentest way was to retreat. The king was ill informed of the ground, and we could not bring our men into any manner of line. The foreign generals are of great experience and bravery; but I can come thus far up to the question, That none but the king's native subjects should command Englishmen for the future.'

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Col. Cornwall. When this attack was formed, Solmes was there, with ten battalions, to sustain them. Solmes said, 'That to send more men, was to slaughter more.' They received orders from Solmes, which never came near them.* Reduce the question singly to Solmes; put it upon him. He is a man very haughty, and puts officers under such hardships, that I am sure the service will be ill done as long as he is general of the foot. He was made general at the king's coming over; he was before colonel of the guards; and I move for Talmash to be general.†

Lord Colchester. I think Talmash is fitter for it than Solmes; he is full as brave a man; but I was not posted so in the engagement as to know what is said of Solmes.

Col. Godfrey. I think there is not a better nor more deserving man than Talmash. Mr. Wroth came to me in a great heat and angerTalmash desired the king to send battalions. The king ordered Mr. Wroth to go to count Solmes, who said, Tell count Solmes, I will not go near him.'

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Sir Tho. Clarges. I will tell you the notice I have had of this. I was informed that the advanced party under the duke of Wirtemberg, and general Mackay, made an attack at two o'clock, and possessed themselves of the enemy's

"Count Solmes bore the blame of the errors committed on this occasion. The English had been sometimes checked by him, as he was much disgusted with their heat and pride. So they charged all on him, who had some good qualities, but did not manage them in an obliging manner." Burnet.

He was

The king would not admit count Solmes to his presence, for many months after. killed the year after, at the Battle of Landen.

+ General Talmash was killed the year after at the attack of Camaret-bay, near Brest.

guns, and drove them from hedge to hedge, and the army was two miles off-If they had been sustained, what a glorious victory might we have had! The enemy flew before us. The duke of Ormond got three or four battalions; but being met by a superior officer, was asked, Whither he went? he said, To sustain his friends' But he was stopped.

Mr. Wharton. I shall collect, in a few words, what has been said. Though comparisons are odious, yet, in this case, they are necessary. Ask Talmash is a better man than Solmes. whether the French sutlers did not begin to plunder our camp. The question is, If count Solmes did not sustain those men? the point is clear. The king having not yet named Officers, now is the proper time.

Mr. Comptroller Wharton. I will not trouble you in a thing I so little understand, as an Army. I am sorry for the comparison between Solmes and Talmash: I think only, that Talmash has served very well; and the longer you use him, the better you will like him. I wish you would lay the question aside; but I would vindicate your countrymen, and frame the question something of this kind, That, for the time to come, the king would be pleased to fill up the Offices of the Army, as they shall become vacant, with his own subjects.'

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Mr. Waller. This day's debate ought to increase the good opinion of the king of his English officers. I am for the question moved by Wharton; but with this addition: 'Or such as have been naturalized.'

Mr. Smith. This will take off those who possess the king that he can do no service with out foreigners. I am not fond of a favourite, because he will not lay his bottom in England, but retire from hence upon farther occasion. By the true friendship I have for Talmash, I would not, under the notion of a service, do him an injury; but consider, you are putting. out and putting in Officers for the king. Pray put the question in the most decent manner, That, for the future, the king would be pleased to employ no foreign general-officers.'

Col. Cornwall. You have all the Foot under Dutch general officers, and the cannon too. I hope they will not play foul play; but if they should, you have a scurvy business of it. Whether a general ought not to be stirring about in an attack, and whether the soldiers were satisfied with Solmes, you may enquire, before you form your Address.

Sir Tho. Clarges. I am afraid that, by this debate, you are making general officers. You gave Thanks to the king, and approved of them all. I hope, when the State of the War is given in, you will not find so many Generalofficers. I think this is only preparatory for the next year.

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Sir Christ. Musgrave. Several things have been propounded for laying aside the question. The weightiest argument I hear is, That it is not seasonable, because the State of the War is not before you;' but that is a reason against it, if the king takes his resolution be

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fore that come in. The king has desired you to advise him; can you do better, than in what is of so great concern as the Fleet and Army? It is said, 'You have given Thanks to the king, and approved of them all;' but shall it be entailed always upon foreign generals to continue them for ever? If we have peace, to keep them, and discharge all the English generalofficers? You are told, The king was misinformed of the ground our men was engaged upon.' I would know, whether the general did view the ground, and not trust other men? If so, sure that was an unpardonable fault. If all that are in, shall be in, what is your Vote for? if you mean for the future, do you mean for this time? If not, then they will be continued. Though I have a great honour for Talmash, and hope his service will be valued as it merits, yet pray explain plainly, if you mean all the general-officers to continue, or from this time; else your address is nothing.

Sir Edw. Seymour. I would have all your Advice such as you may justify in another place. It is to be passed conjunct by both houses. The king asks Advice of both houses; and pray let us take no Resolutions from hence, that we shall not be able to justify to the lords.

Sir Edw. Hussey. If that pass for an argument, That what we do will not be acceptable to the lords,' then we may do nothing. When gentlemen get preferment, I observe they are apt to be gagged, and abandon the interests of their country. Lét a brand be set on them, or him, whoever they are.

Mr. Hampden. I easily guessed, that you had gone far enough in a debate that has occasioned this heat (I know what a gagg is). If my poetry be as good as Hussey's, Solmes is nearly related to the king. For such a person to have a brand upon him! I move, That you would lay the debate aside.

Sir Edw. Hussey. I desire to explain myself. I meant not Hampden; but if he be one that has abandoned his country, then I

mean him.

The question was put, "That the king be advised, that no General-Officers, for the future, shall command Englishmen, but such as are Natives of his dominions."

Mr. Harley. I find, gentlemen have showed as much modesty in the house, as courage in the Army. I would make this distinction in the question, That the English Foot may be commanded by the English generals.'

for the future.

Lord Castleton. Orders were showed to officers in French, and Dutch, who understood neither language. I stand up for the question. I am sure we had better have natives than foreigners for general-officers.

Sir Tho. Littleton. Foley has assured you, That we might have had the victory last summer.' The fault was in the general-officers, not your countrymen. But all he says, is from hearsay, and they are as much to blame that were at dinner.

Col. Granville. Till the French king had German troops and Italian ministers, he never could enslave his country. All commands in the army for these four years have been in foreign hands; and the descent in the Frenchmen's hands.

Sir Robert Rich. I was none of those that fawned on the Dutch when they came in, and nauseated then when they had done our work. Talmash, whom I honour much, has a fair rise, to come up from colonel to lieutenant-general. I hope the king will consider all we have said, and take order in it.*

Debate on the King's asking the Advice of the House.] The house of commons then went into a grand committee; on that part of his majesty's Speech, whereby he desires the Advice of this house. The Report was read of Ships taken by the French, for want of Convoy.

Sir Tho. Clarges. The king's Speech asks your Advice to take such measures for the common interest against France, &c. Our fi: st consideration is to know the state and condition we are now in; if we know not that, if we understand not that in some sort, we shall never be able to preserve ourselves, or support the war three years. At sea we have been very unfortunate, since we were at war, whether by unskilful management or treachery. One year we were driven into our ports, though, as the lords of the Admiralty represent it, we were strong. The French covered all our seas, and we were surrounded, and we lost 1500 ships. Three millions stock of the nation Mr. Foley. It is a great prejudice, that was lost for want of guarding the sca. English forces should be coinmanded by foreign we are at sca, we see to-day by the Report. officers. When the law sets some men at One of the Admiralty, Priestman, was named, liberty by Habeas Corpus, that a foreign Offi- how he should say, If we keep one ship in cer should set guards upon them, has given three, it is enough for you.' The robbers all great discontent in the Army. The king is not over England, is a certain sign we are impolike to be well served thus. This summer there verished; twenty in a company. The last was a mighty great confusion in the English year, we had a victory at sea; the king rearmy; orders were given in Dutch, and French,joiced at it, and so did we; but we are unforto the English, who understood neither Dutch nor French. Our officers are men of estates; to subdue the enemy, and not make a trade of VOL. V.

How

*The above Debate is not mentioned in the Journal ЗА

them more, and foreigners ought not to con cern themselves so much. In the last engagement, our men were not so led on as they should have been, and they reaped not the ad vantage of so much honour and bravery as they showed. Really we must not deny ourselves; we grow less and less, and must not destroy ourselves and posterity. I honour those gentlemen in command, and I think they have done for the best; but it is reasonable that there should be an equal number in the Admiralty of gentlemen bred at sea; and I desire one part of the Advice may be, That the Commissioners of the Admiralty may have an equal number mixed.' For the Civil Govern

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tunate that those we have overcome, yet, notwithstanding this victory, take 1500 of our ships. The reasons why the victorywas not pursued do not satisfy me. You have heard of a priest, who abused some Englishmen, demanded at St. Malo's, &c. in a former government. (See p. 709). Why should not we preserve the strength and honour of the nation as well as they By the method we have taken, I fear we have undone all our allies. As an island, naturally you should strengthen the sea; yet we send all our force into Flanders, where you draw all the strength of France, where he is irresistible. Holland, Brandenbourg, and the rest of the confederates, had 90,000 men in the field, and could not save Namur, the bar-ment the council is the soul of all. You have rier for Holland; and in the mean time we ruin England. It is too memorable to be forgot, the ill success we had at Steenkirk; and our countrymen might have had a glorious victory if they had been seconded. There is no diminution by ill success, but attempting things improbable ruins us. There must be some unskilfulness in councils, and, in the king's absence, no advice but must come from the king first. The strength of the nation is the commonalty, and I doubt not but the king will take the commons advice. I should be glad to hear some wiser than I speak their judgments in this condition we are in, to advise something to relieve us.

Captain Mordaunt. I know no Great Council of the nation, but here and the Privy Council, without a private Cabal. Most of those people that king James left behind him are continued in places of trust and profit. I hope they will take care to chuse us better-Those allies we have, must either come sooner into the field or when they come there, do better. One advice that I desire you to give the king is, that the army be better paid; though I mix my interest with your advice. It is hard that we should pay for our heads at home, and not be paid for venturing our lives abroad. We have but a foul prospect abroad, if not better sustained than we have been. 'Tis better for foreigners to carry on a foreign war. I would have all those worthy foreign generals returned, though to our great loss (jeering.)

Mr. Wharton. When the king asks your advice, is it because he sees great necessity for it. I doubt not but the king sees that private men, called a Cabal, have led him into some errors, and calls for your Advice: which is the best thing he could do. The State of the nation has been in a great measure opened. I would make the most of the allies, and not the least, and I hope we shall stick to them, and they to us. To advise the king not to go abroad, is so tender a thing, that I would not advise it. If the confederates are lost, I think we are lost with them, but you may hold out longer than they. The English want not bravery nor understanding, nor want money, nor hearts to give, but the great fault is, the English are not led on by officers of their own nation: they follow them naturally, and trust

had one secretary of state, and it cannot be denied, but that is too great a load for one man. There have been, always two, that one might be a curb to the other. The matter of Government lies there. The man in that government ought to be very generous, because of getting secret intelligence; those managed by them must be rewarded, and well chosen, This is of great weight, and if the Secretary be not ready to give something of his own to reward persons, besides the public allowance, intelligence will starve. The next quality in a Secretary of State is courage and bravery, so set and tempered for the cause, that he is to hazard himself and fortune for that interest. In a difficult government, and when there are great enemies to oppose in such a government, persons that are entrusted most, do some bold action for the government. This makes it absolutely necessary to represent to the king, that he must have Secretaries with these quali fications. In intermissions of parliament, kings have consulted with their Privy-Councils; formerly they went not into lesser Cabals-Under any other notion none can be distinguishedSuppose, not well affected to the GovernmentThere are no Books or Records to be seen, and you cannot punish them, because you have no light into their actions-I move, That a part of your Advice be, that the king call his Coun cil, and that they do set their hands to their advice, or their dissent. These are some of the chief Heads of your Advice, I believe, that you are upon. Then for the Lieutenancy, and particularly that of London-I hope no gentleman will attribute what I have said to any thing of party. I would have but one distinction made; that is, who is for this Government, and who against it-Not to have this Lieutenancy totally altered, but there are so many ill men in it, and so unfit, that I doubt, if it should come to a push, you would be foiled. One thing also troubles me much. I think that unhappy division worthy your notice. I mean that unhappy breach between the Princess and the Queen*; she is presumptive heir of the crown,

** Upon the earl of Marlborough's disgrace, his lady was forbid the court. The princess would not submit to this; she thought she ought to be allowed to keep what persons she

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