Oldalképek
PDF
ePub

Sir Henry Goodrick. When Charles 2 de- | consist of Officers and Soldiers, making up that clared war against France, in 1677, there were number." Which was agreed to by the house. 1,000 men in each regiment, not including Debate on the Accounts and Observations deOfficers. You have precedents for this delivered by the Commissioners of Accounts; and mand; if there be any precedents of Officers on Secret Service Money paid to Parliamentincluded, I am the most mistaken in the world. Men.] Dec. 3. Sir Tho. Clarges. The lords Sir Tho. Clarges. He says, 'That in the have ordered the Commissioners of Accounts year 1677, Charles 2's officers were not in- to send them their Accounts under their hands cluded in the number;' but then we had plain and seals. I would know, whether they should dealing, and the house went Head by Head; go in person to the lords, or are the commisthere were a hundred in a company, besides sioners to send their secretary with them? officers; but now you come to lump. Then we had our debate free: Now you come to vote what your Army consisted of, and what meant by the word Army.' You had 38 or 39,000 men paid in Ireland, and had not 20,000 at Aghrim battle. My question is a plain question, That the numbers shall not be inclusive to Officers.' If we shall have more men than officers for them, I hope they will be reduced too.

[ocr errors]

Earl of Ranelagh. I stand up to inform you, that in every company of foot there will be eleven Officers, not included in the number of men set down. They will come to 11,000, in all, not included.

Sir Tho. Clarges. This lord tells you of what Numbers are given in; perhaps you will say, the same officers that now command 50, may command 100. When you include Officers, then you will provide Numbers and Men, and till you determine Numbers of Money, you cannot determine Numbers of Officers. Must it be taken for granted, that the house has no judgment in this matter? You did formerly resolve numbers in regiments, and till then you cannot tell numbers of officers. When you are come off from this of Ireland, the rest will follow.

Sir John Lowther. If you cut off 11,000 from your Vote, for ought I know, the king may come with such an unequal force, that he may be either beaten, or come off with a dishonourable peace.

Col. Titus. I was much startled when I heard of an abatement of 11,000 men. I never knew but three officers in a company. Drummers and pipers may be officers as well as others. If officers be no part of an Army, then some gentlemen are in the right.

Sir John Lowther. If 11,000 men will be deducted, I am not for that question. If of ficers, drummers, and serjeants, be deducted, I agree that three officers may be deducted.

Sir Robert Rich. I shall always stick to the true interest of the nation. To have a division for 2,000, I think not for the interest of the king nor the nation.

Sir Christ. Musgrave. I believe it not the intention of any man to lessen your Vote of 64,000 men; and I hope no intention to increase it. But to talk of an Arnfy and not Officers, I believe the notion never entered into any man's head as tied to that Vote of 64,000 men; for it is not to lessen them.

Resolved, "That it is the opinion of this committee, that the 12,960 men for Ireland do

Mr. Tho. Howard. I heard my name read in this Book of Accounts, for 50 and 100l. to Mr. Kingsmell and myself: both have had pensions from king Charles paid all this while, and in king James's time; and application has been made to this king, who made some objections to persons names; but it is in my name, and I do receive it. I am sorry it has gone so far. I owe all to the protection of the government, but nothing to the bounty of it.

Sir John Thompson. I stand amazed that, in the best times and governments, things should be in such darkness. I hope not to live to that day to see the house of commons one of the Grievances of the nation. When we see Grievances, I hope, if this house cannot take them away, it will not establish them. I believe we are under the best of kings, but never was so much goodness so abused. The Accounts are amazing things. We were told last session, Country gentlemen understood not Accounts,' and now, it seems, the Commissioners of the Treasury do not. If they understand not Secret Service, then they are not fit for their places. It is our misfortune, the person (Mr. Jephson) is dead that should give you Account. I would know, whether the secretary, or the lords, understand your Accounts? When they have directions from the king. So much given to Members. I am sorry money goes so little for merit as in former ages. Captains of ships put in for money: old methods will bring in new judgments. I am afraid some men have taken up old vices, which others have left. I would have this house begin with themselves. I do declare, I never had one penny from the king, nor ever will have.

Sir John Lowther. As to that part of the discourse of the gentleman that spoke last, I agree that I am not fit for my place in the Treasury. I shall be much easier out of it, and I hope I shall leave it. I remember an accident of that gentleman, at an accusation last session for drinking king James's health [was ready to faint away]. It is strange now to make reflections of being gagged by Oflices. As for the Accounts, I dare be bold to say, some things are mistaken, and some of importance omitted, and nothing in them, but was transmitted last session. You have an Account of 18 millions, to raise a dust to blind you. All the Aids amount not to 11 millions, not much above ten. If you reckon the lawyers, and the money come out of the country, that is a double reckoning; but to say 18 mi!lions, when in reality, not 11, is not fair. Not

having yet had the copy of the Accounts, I cannot say much. As for king James's debt, upon the Revolution of the government, the Receivers did very wisely to pay themselves. The next thing objected to is, in the Accounts of Tallies struck, before money came in. It was for no more than 200,000l. borrowed of the City at a time, and that at the beginning of the year, when Sea and Land are at the greatest charges. People will not go on, if neither money nor credit. Some services press more than others, as Navy-Stores, wear and tear. If you strike not tallies of credit before hand, it will cost at the latter end of the year 2 or 300,000. It had been worth the consideration of the Commissioners, to have consulted the several Offices of the Ordnance. I did hope this as well worthy of observation as the rest. For Secret Service, in the beginning of the reign, there was a great deal. Though remote from the Heads, you will find for the future much less, which now are put upon the proper distribution. As for Money to Members, you see all before you, and is there any thing like corrupting of votes? I believe, if all that sum were tendered to some persons, they would not do so base a thing; and if I would reflect upon the government, I should say it is a great fault in allowing so little Money for Secret Service. Cromwell gave more at a time for Secret Service, in the court of France, than all this comes to. For the plate of ambassadors to be returned, &c. there is now a Tryal depending with lord Castlemaine, and all diligence possible used in it. As to lord Griffin, in all ages, and at all times, Accounts have passed by privy-scal: and for the good of the subject it should be so. Shall Accounts be lost, and not have a discharge by privy seal? But if it be to the prejudice of the crown, or the subject, then it is a failure. For Ireland, the musters were taken in winter, when, the Army was at the weakest, and the irregular time of the musters was to the disadvantage of the army, not of the nation. Thus things have occurred to me, as I heard the observations read; but there are some things that I wonder have escaped their observation, when Accounts have been sent three or four times back, and not perfected; and this is one of the crying shames of the government. The next thing is, how your Money is spent in the economy of the Navy? The king took his own dividend in the East India Company, 7,000l. to pay them, nay the very crown jewels, if I may say so. should be glad any man abler than myself may be employed in the Treasury.

1

Sir John Thompson. I confess I am not so fit for employment as that gentleman; but should have been faithful, as I believe of him, I am not so angry as he, but, I observe, touch a place that is sore, and there will be some extraordinary motion. I cannot turn my words like a courtier. I wonder that gentleman should go so far back as the last session, when the house was satisfied with me. I was forced by king James to give 2001. for my quietus for my

patent of barrister; so that I had no such intimacy with the government then. I never did accept of Bribes for my Vote here, nor ever was offered any. I did then clear myself, and I could wish that gentlemen would do so too.

[ocr errors]

Sir Tho. Clarges. Lowther has frankly arraigned the Commissioners, and I did expect you would have called him to the bar to have answered his Accusation. He tells you, The Commissioners have omitted several material things;' but the commissioners could not proceed farther, not having the particular Accounts of the Navy, Army, Ireland, or the Ordnance, before them. The commissioners did think fit to allow all the extraordinary charges upon Revolutions. My memory is not so good as to take all the Heads, as he has done; but what he says is an accusation. We cannot be wiser than God has made us, nor, I believe, that gentleman neither. Pray read the observations.

Sir Robert Rich. I thought, by Lowther's first speech, he had been a good accomptant, and he seems to be none at all, when he confesses he never read the Accounts. If the manner of the Account displeases him, we should have been infinitely obliged to him for his company, if his weighty affairs would have permitted him. But one expression is strange; to arraign the commissioners of casting a mist before the eyes of the house ;-it was next to something else. He said it in that soft language before; he durst not say otherwise here. [Mr. Hampden took him down to Order, but proceeded not.]-I will not repeat the expression again, but nothing can be harder expressed. To the Observations, he said, There might have been more Observations.' I could have wished there had been occasion for none.

Sir John Lowther. I know not that it is a reflection for an omission to be taken notice of. I have had my share as hardly on that as any man. If a man's honour must not be vind.cated here, I must take occasion to do it in another place.

Sir Christ. Musgrave. I would know why these Accounts were not brought to the commissioners in due time? The last session, provisions for Londonderry, and ships, lay here, ready laden, after it was relieved.

Sir Tho. Clarges. We sent out above 300 precepts the last time; the last time given was a day in June, but we had none of those Accounts, though sent article by article. We did desire, that the accomptants in Ireland should make oath there, and answer the Objections: We could not have those Accounts brought us in any time.

Sir Stephen Fox. I only desire to appeal to the commissioners, whether I did not appear according to their summons? They gave me liberty to state my Accounts in two months; but since, they could not take any more accounts till they made their report here..

Sir Tho. Clarges. If they did not obey our orders, we had no manner of coertion, as the commissioners of Brook-House, who had power of committing to prison upon contempt.

I tell

you in general, once for all, we have punctually observed your order in the Accounts of Incomes and Issues.

Sir Christ. Musgrave. If accomptants make not up their accounts in 3 years, what can the commissioners do, when the accounts of 1688 are not made up till 1689? I think it reasonable that, in a year and a half, they be brought to your auditor, when now all is in the dark.

Sir Tho. Clarges. When we called for the Account of the King's Houshold, we found some accounts not made up in ten years; as the king's Chamber, &c. Of the Taxes, since Charles 2, no account has been made these 30 years. I know not if greater business, or more profitable, has diverted them. The Exchequer is very exact in their method; but, if neglected, I know not where the fault lies.

Sir Benjamin Newland. We have set down, without altering one letter, as Mr. Jephson has delivered it to us. But for us to make alterations, it was not fit; but we have delivered it as we received it.

Sir Christ. Musgrave. You say, but 7 per cent. shall be given for interest, and they give 9 per cent. Your funds will miscarry, when you so increase your interest. As for the Land tax, it was a certain fund, and needed not to increase interest; at this rate, your interest will eat out all your funds.

Mr. Waller. It is plainly made out, that this is a breach of your act of parliament. I remember, an oath was proposed to be given to the lords of the treasury; they objected against that, because by it they should be obliged to pay the Bankers Debt. I hope we shall not pass this over without censure.

Sir Tho. Littleton. I take it, that this Fund of Credit was to take up money before it came in. The occasions of the government pressed them so far, that they could not take up half they wanted.

Sir Stephen Fox. We have ever struck tallies of anticipation; it is impossible, as this government stands, to have done otherwise; the necessity is unavoidable, and we had not done our duties to the nation if we had done otherwise.

Sir Christ. Musgrave. Your present consideration is, Whether tallies have not been struck before money was actually lent. If I heard right, I think it was owned they had struck for Seamens Wages, before the money was actually received. Our present question is, Whether tallies have not been struck before the money was actually borrowed? Lowther says, You paid the Dutch for the money they lent you; but must you pay the interest, before the money comes in? Why paid we interest to advance money to them, when we might have had it at the interest allowed?

Mr. Hampden. The king did borrow money, and paid interest for it. The Dutch had not, nor desired interest, till the time the money came into the exchequer.

Sir Wm. Strickland. I question not, but that the commissioners of accounts will tell who paid not for their patents for their Offices,

you

and I hope you will make them refund. I have an account of those who have had Patents, and have not paid for them,

Sir Edw. Seymour. The commissioners of accounts, whom you have trusted in this service, have reason to be exempted from paying for their patents; but, as for other officers, it is hard the king should pay for the patent, and, as I hear, likewise to pay for their charges in executing that patent.

Sir Robert Rich. By all the inspections I have made, I find no such covenant made. Sir Robert Howard. The king not only pays for the patent, but for the taxes of the profit of their patent.

[ocr errors]

Sir Tho. Clarges. I do not say, the Treasurer of the Navy is under the qualification of this Head. He has 3,000l. a year salary; but I think no fees can be taken by any officer whatever, but by act of parliament, or from time to time immemorial. I remember, Mr. Vaughan, (when a member here) did plainly and positively assert, That no officer could take Fees, but what have been used from time immemorial, or hung up in a Table, or settled by act of parliament.' We find great sums to Offices charged for Fees. We had power for the best of our service, and we sent to the greatest officers to know what Fees. They said, 'They could not, upon oath, say Legal Fees,' but what had been taken formerly by other officers.' A poor captain, of 6s. 8d. a day, pays 6 or 7i. for his commission. When you have the persons, and subject matter, before you, then you are ready for Resolution.

[ocr errors]

Mr. Foley. The Receiver General of the Customs, in king Charles's and king James's times, had 1,000l. per ann. salary; the Comptroller of the Customs had 6 or 700l. per ann. By the new impositions, this brought his place even to Receivers of the Customs. For Mr. Kent's Fees, he alleges Lidcott for his precedent. Now he has 1,300l. per ann. so much as to maintain a coach and six horses,

Sir W. Strickland. When we grow poor, I would not have others grow rich, I would not increase Salaries, that had sufficient before. I hope they shall be made to refund, and be reduced to be as before. I would have the Commissioners of Accounts lay before you this Head, before you vote.

Mr. Foley. As for the Officers Fee-farm of the Customs, all other profits being taken away from them, it was thought fit they should have Pensions for life, and now 'tis continued to their sons.

Debate on Money for Secret Service to Parliament-men.] Sir Jn. Lowther. I think the words of the act of parliament are pursued. I dare say, this is not a matter at all that comes into the cognizance of the Commission of Accounts. The Lords of the Treasury think it a part of their duty, not to enquire into matters of state; as foreign Ministers, and Members of this house.

Mr. Foley. 'Tis said, by Lowther, 'That he thought not this fit for our enquiry.' Mr. Jephson would tell us what Pensions were paid to Parliament men, but not what suins. After

Mr. Jephson's death, we had his clerk, Mr. Squib, before us, who said, ' It was the king's pleasure, not to have Account of sums of money, and it was a great deal for the king's service not to have sums named.' We have it, we received it, and lay it before you.

Sir Charles Sedley. This is new to our ears, and foreign to story. We give great sums, but must not receive. For service for the state, 'tis allowable; but for Secret Service, no parliament man ought to be ashamed. I am an old parliament man, but a young speaker. One in my company, when I was young, would needs give the fiddlers two or three pieces, though he loved music as little as I; but he went shares with the fiddlers. If the service can be distinguished betwixt the capacity of a parliament man, and Secret Service, let us know it. As it appears to me, it seems a reflection upon every member therefore I would enquire into it.

:

Sir W. Strickland. For Secret Service of state, was formerly, in that parliament called The Pensioner Parliament.' If this was given for public service, let it be owned. This may be the reason we go on so slowly. Let every gentleman lay his hand upon his heart, and declare and vote, That whoever has received Money is an enemy to the king and kingdom, and the liberties of the people.'

Mr. Goodwin Wharton. If this comes to any great or considerable sum, as I hope it will not, it may endanger the government; as in king Charles 2nd's time, when the Books were brought before the house.* I hope you will do some such thing now.

Lord Castleton. The herd will not suffer wounded deer to herd with them. These sort of men endangered king Charles, and threw out king James; and God bless king William and queen Mary!

Mr. Comptroller Wharton. I stand not up to oppose any motion; for indeed you have not any regular motion before you. But, since I hear a gentleman's name (Mr. Jephson) who is not alive to answer for himself, I had a friendship for him, and I think he did deserve it, and would not have had a hand in any such thing. Something he told me, after he had been with the Commissioners of Accounts, and positively he affirmed, That no sum of money was paid, but what was very justifiable.' And the nature of the thing he told me too. Sums were given to two members, for discoveries; the members never touched it themselves, but handed it to two persons who made the discovery.

Sir Robert Rich. When Mr. Jephson was pressed, at our Board, he was asked, 'What he hesitated at?' he said, Some in both houses were concerned; in the one and other house four.' He said positively, 'It was not for their own use, but upon discoveries to others; but positively not to themselves.'*

Ordered, "That the Commissioners appointed for taking the public Accompts do lay before this house, 1. A List of all such persons who have Salaries, and have made the king pay the Charge of passing their Patents, and passing their Accompts, as also the Taxes upon their offices. 2. A List of those that have great Salaries, and have upon slight pretences, got them increased; and who have had extraordinary Bills of incident Charges easily allowed. 3. A List of the Salaries which were granted upon special reasons; and which are still continued, though the reasons are ceased.-4. A List of the excessive Fees that are exacted and taken by the Officers that have great Salaries allowed them for execution of their places, and for which no legal precedent appears to justify the same."

Debate on Fuller's Information.] Dec. 9. Mr. Fuller, upon his request, was brought to the bar of the house of commons to make his discovery, &c.; who gave an Account of his intrigue with the Lords in the Tower, prisoners; and, That they sent Letters and Messages by him to the late queen, and the French king.' He then proceeded as follows:-" Que of the letters from the earl of Aylesbury I opened, which assured the queen of his fidelity, and desire That the French would send 30,000 men, and he engaged to rise by June next, and they should be ready to receive them.' This was in February last. Two Letters were sent to the late queen, in a bone of mutton, one from the earl of Feversham. Several of both houses did promise such matters as to cause the people to rebel. The earl of Litchfield intreated,

That the landing might be in June or July, and he would be ready, when the French land

It was whispered, 'That part of this money (20,000l.) was for the purchase of Nottinghau house, at Kensington.' Grey.

"The amusement given to both houses by this William Fuller was one cause of delay to the Supplies. The Conspiracy of the Papists in Lancashire to raise a Rebellion in the kingdom, in order to introduce king James, was attested by several witnesses, which the Jaco

Sir Tho. Clarges. We did send to Mr. Jeph-bites were so dexterous as to take off, either son, who did open himself very reasonably in the matter. He thought the precept was not full, and desired it to be explained; and he had it in the words he desired: he then did tell us, as Mr. Wharton has said, That it was for a service of such a nature, that he thought it of no service to the Commissioners to have it known; but if they insisted upon it, they should have it,' but a week after he died.

* See vol. iv. p. 1142.

by fair, or violent means. But, nevertheless, their sinister designs being confirmed by the Papers taken with lord Preston, and several other circumstances, which amounted to an actual demonstration, some persons of note were secured, and search made after others; which brought the business to be examined before the commons. At this juncture, Fuller, who was a prisoner in the King's Bench, set up for an evidence, and, at his own desire, was brought to the bar of the commons.” Tindal.

the queen. The queen said, 'There were several persons in both houses.' And Father Emanuel said, 'He had friends in the king's council, and the secretary's office;' and the queen told me, If any did trouble me, to apply to lord Godolphin; and that lord Feversham, and several others, would assist him,' as lord Preston and lord Aylesbury."

Sir Charles Sedley. This young man has accused so many, that was he an angel from Heaven, I should not believe him, he has accused so many considerable persons.

Colonel Cornwall. One of the king's messengers was concerned in taking Fuller into custody; pray let him be called in.

Mr. Howe. One thing will convince me of the credit or falsity of this person. He says, The archbishop of Canterbury would meet him, and lord Portland put it off; and Mr. Chadwick said, He failed lord Portland.'

Mr. Chadwick. I went to Fuller, and he appointed Friday night positively to meet him ; but no Fuller, nor any from him. I went again, and appointed another time at Kensington, and then the fire was there; but he failed twice before.

ed, to join several thousands.' I did open the letter from lord Preston, declaring his fidelity to king James and the queen; and,That he would raise men in the north of England, if the French would land there.' (He named the earls of Peterborough, Salisbury, and others.) Salisbury declared, by father Emanuel, That he would advance 4000l.' King James's Declaration was dispersed by Dr. Gray, and sir Adam Blair. Salisbury's money should be advanced by Father Emanuel, (who was still in England) and he valued not a warrant to take him, he had such friends in the secretary's office, and in the king's house.-The late queen gave me a letter to the earls of Castlemaine and Feversham. King James had friends in the king's council, of whose service he was well assured. There was a commission to six lords to manage affairs in England, as if king James was in person in England. Bills of Exchange were sent by me. The marquis of Halifax was the first in the said commission. There were 23,000 listed, to join with the French. I must humbly crave the protection of the house, till I bring a gentleman to confirm what I have said. The archbishop of Canterbury (Sancroft) encouraged the matter as much as possible; Fuller. "I appointed the night before the but the earl of Portland would not meet the fire to meet my lord of Canterbury at Kensinggentlemen that should discover. The arch- ton; but he said, All was there in a hurry, bishop was not able to give the gentlemen aand he would appoint another place.' I think protection. He wrote to lord Portland, and there were no more appointments by lord Porthis secretary wrote to him, That it was not in land: I cannot say positively. I would have his lord's sphere, nor could he have money.' I gone as a prisoner, in custody of twenty meswas by warrant committed to prison, and that sengers, if they pleased, into Kent, to receive prevented the gentleman coming in to dis- some papers from France. Lord Portland gave cover. I will forfeit my life, if the house will ine 2007. and lord Shrewsbury 20 guineas. The give me leave to send for this gentleman into queen gave me 100 pistoles, and at my return Flanders, who will confirm what I have said." out of France 100 more, when I went away. [He withdrew.] I had 100/. more from lord Nottingham, as Mr. Chadwick. Fuller has named lord Port- soon as lord Preston's Trial was over.* I have land, and my lord of Canterbury; I presume laid out in all 15007. in the king's service, of to inform you, what I know of this gentleman. which I have not received 500. I lost my He has made some believe that he knows some-employment for two years. The last queen thing, but not so much as he pretends to. The king has been acquainted with all he has laid before you. I went often to him, to bring him to several points, but whenever he came to fixing time and place, he always shuffled, and pretended want of Papers. He fixed for lord Portland at Kensington, but he never kept his time. I thought fit to tell you this, and I am afraid you will find him a very shuffling fellow. Sir John Guise. I have heard a scandalous report of this fellow. Mr. Crone was condemned upon this man's evidence.

Fuller came in again, and said -" I saw an Address from the lords to the French king, for assurance to restore king James, from the late archbishop of Canterbury, the dukes of Norfolk, Newcastle, and Beaufort; the earls of Mulgrave, Clarendon, Aylesbury, Castlemaine, and Scarsdale; the bishops of Durham and Ely; the lords Grey, Widdrington, Forbes, and Teynham; William Penn, and Berkshire Howard there were near forty more, but I could not take all their names, because colonel Parker called for the Address, to carry it to VOL. V.

[ocr errors]

made me a page, and gave me 200 pistoles, and the money I owe will make up the 1500l. Lord Portland denied me money to bear my charges, and for that reason I could not go down. I wrote two letters to him from Kent, in four or five days. I told Mr. Chadwick, when he offered to go down with me into Kent,

That the gentleman was come to town.' I think I did give Mr. Chadwick the letter from the gentleman, which said that in a day or two he would come to town. These gentlemen that I am to produce will bring papers (they desire not to be taken on their bare words) to show how the king is betrayed by some of his council: the best way is to bring them presently; they fear that some about the king will prevent their discovery. I will take care to write to them, and as the house think convenient, I will either send a messenger myself, or the king may, if he pleases: I believe I have a servant whom I

* Lord Preston was condemned, but afterwards pardoned.

2 X

« ElőzőTovább »