The Commission will understand thoroughly that they have no control Deputation over you except the right to increase your members?

DR. RAMSAY: None whatever. We were informed that it was necessary, if we wished to increase the number of our members, that we should make an application to the Court of Aldermen. We did so on the usual form, and they gave us that increase. I believe some observation was made that we were manufacturing faggot votes. We repudiated that at once, because we had no intention of manufacturing any votes at all, but of advancing the interests of our Company, which we resuscitated. In your efforts to promote technical education in the interests of your own trade you signally failed?

We failed, inasmuch as we found the jealousies amongst the manufacturing needlemakers of Redditch in Worcestershire were such that we were advised to postpone any further offer of prizes for a year or two until we saw how it got on.

from Needlemakers'

Company.

STATIONERS' COMPANY.

THE following gentlemen attended as a deputation from the Stationers' Deputation Company :

from Stationers' Company.

}Wardens.

Mr. C. R. Rivington, Clerk.

CHAIRMAN to Mr. J. J. Miles: I believe you come here as representing the Stationers' Company?

Yes.

I believe there are some facts which you wish to lay before the Commission?

Yes. If you would allow me, I think it would save the time of the Commission if I ask our clerk to reply to the questions. He has all the information so much better at his fingers' ends.

TO MR. RIVINGTON: I understand that you are prepared to show that there are some peculiarities in the constitution of your Company?

I am.

so?

You have duties imposed upon you by Act of Parliament, is not that

Under the Copyright Act.

Will you state what those duties are?

I may mention that that is not the special peculiarity of our Company. I must go back, if you will allow me, to a date before the incorporation, but I will not keep your Lordship many minutes. The Stationers' Company was incorporated in 1556, but it had existed for upwards of a century or a century and a half before as a society or brotherhood, consisting exclusively of persons employed in the production of other than official books. The members were printers, and they had a common stock. Each member put a certain sum of money into a common stock; the work was divided amongst the members, and the productions sold at a profit, and a certain portion of the profit was distributed amongst the members of the Company. In 1556 the Company was incorporated and clothed with certain powers as to the controlling of printing and books issued. Then, of course, the Company became a corporation, but the old body existed, and trading has existed and been carried on separate

Deputation
from
Stationers'
Company.

from the Company as a corporation from that time until the present day, and it is continued, so that in the Stationers' Company there are really two bodies; there is the corporation of the Stationers' Company and the partners in the stock, which is called an English stock. Formerly there were several stocks; there was a Latin stock, an Irish stock, a Ballad stock, and a Bible stock. The stock existing now is an English stock. About 1601 the Company obtained a grant from the king giving them the exclusive right of printing certain publications, and that was amalgamated with the English stock. This stock has a capital of between 41,000l. to 42,0007., which is held amongst 306 members of the Company. The capital is divided into certain shares, which are held just in the same way as the shares of ordinary companies, and the profits of the stock and property belonging to the stock are appropriated thus: A certain amount is distributed amongst the poor of the Company (it used to be 1007. a year, but now it is 400l. a year), and after paying that the nett profit is divided by way of dividend, which is paid each half year. The members of the Company under the byelaws have a power of disposing of the shares to their widows, but to no other persons. Upon the death of a person who has not disposed of his share to his widow the amount is paid out, and an election takes place among the members of the Company to that vacant share. If the share is bequeathed to the widow, the widow can take the share and enjoy the profits during her life, and upon her death that share is then disposed of in the same way as I mentioned before.

SIR SYDNEY WATERLOW: Then, as a matter of fact, each member subscribes capital towards what is called the English stock just as in the case of a joint stock company?

Not each member of the Company, but each partner. The members in the trading stock are only a certain number of the liverymen.

And the capital thus raised by that select number of the liverymen is a trading capital used in printing and publishing books at the present time?

It is.

And that monopoly enjoyed by the Company from the charter granted by the king was a monopoly for printing Bibles and almanacks?

Almanacks and primers.

Of course that monopoly has ceased many years?

That monopoly has ceased many years.

The Company still continue operations?

They still continue operations and publish school books.

Can you tell the Commissioners what is, in round numbers, the amount of corporate money beyond that belonging to the English stock? The money belonging to the corporation is all set out in the detailed returns which I had the honour to submit to the Commissioners. The property belonging to the English stock consists of this trading capital and investment of certain profits which were accumulated and not wholly distributed amongst the partners. At the time that the stamp duty was repealed, a large sum of money was received by the Company, and that was invested, and the produce of that was divided amongst the partners as part of the profit.

Is the membership of the Company still limited to persons connected with the trade?

Exclusively to persons connected with the trade, and to persons born free. So particular are the Company as to that, that if any application is made from any person who is not a member of the trade, it is not even submitted to the Court.

Is the Company practically carrying on at the present time all the duties imposed upon it by the original charter?

Yes. Of course the duties relating to the controlling of printing are Stationers' obsolete at the present day, but the Company bind a very large number Company. of apprentices, as many as between 100 and 200 a year; and those bindings are all bona fide bindings, the apprentices actually serve their time to printers or booksellers. The Company have the administration of the charities, which are exclusively confined to members of their trade. They have nothing to do with persons outside their trade with regard to their charities. They have various duties under the Copyright Acts. Indeed, there is now a Bill pending before the House of Commons to increase those duties very considerably by requiring registration of all engravings at Stationers' Hall.

Do the Company derive any profit as a Company from the fees taken under the Copyright Act.

None at all. Far from deriving any profit, they are at a considerable expense; it is no pecuniary advantage to the Company.

MR. FIRTH: On the first page of your return, speaking of your charter, which you say is destroyed, you say that it purported to establish a corporation to control the printing and publication of books. I think this Company was established by Queen Mary, apprehending, as she says, much ill to the State and Holy Mother Church, and giving you absolute control and sole power to print and publish books; is not that so?

It was incorporated.

Giving you the monopoly?

At that time, certainly.

And under that monopoly you destroyed many thousands of books?
A very large number.

As to almanacks of which you spoke, your almanack monopoly began,
I think, in the reign of James I. ?

Yes, that is so.

And that lasted for 150 years, I think?

Until the middle of the last century.

How many almanacks do you publish now?

About twenty.

Old Moore's Almanack you publish, amongst the rest, I think?
Yes.

And do you still continue your prophecies in Old Moore ?

No.

With respect to Stationers' Hall, do you consider that Stationers' Hall carries out the object set out in the statute of George III., that it tends to the greater encouragement of the production of literary works of lasting benefit to the world?

That is a matter of opinion.

I ask you your own opinion?

It is a subject I have not considered.

You have not considered whether your own Stationers' Hall has that effect?

The Company perform all the duties cast upon it, I believe.

Is there an index or register kept at Stationers' Hall?

There are four different registers kept there.

CHAPTER XI.

Memoranda of facts replying to misrepresentations of witnesses :-Supplementary statement on behalf of the Fishmongers' Company-Memorial of the Goldsmiths' Company-Observations of Sir Frederick J. Bramwell and Mr. Prideaux on behalf of the Goldsmiths' Company-Memorial of the Skinners' Company-A short historical account of the connection of the Livery Companies of London with the county of Londonderry-Memorandum of the Merchant Taylor's Company-Supplementary statements of the Salters' Company and of the Ironmongers' Company-Observations of the Cloth workers' Company on the evidence of witnesses-Memoranda from the Barbers' Com. pany, the Coachmakers' Company and the Horners' Company-Concluding observations.

Supplementary statement on behalf of the Fishmongers' Company, presented to the Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the City of London Livery Companies.

Supplemen- IN replying to the invitation of her Majesty's Commissioners to offer tary stateany remarks or further explanations which may appear to arise on the ment on evidence that has been given before the Commission, the Fishmongers' behalf of Fishmongers' Company and its governing body desire to avoid anything that might appear to be recriminatory or to bear the aspect of harsh or personal comment; especially as it is sufficiently obvious, without detailed criticism, that some of the witnesses have been misled by prejudice in many of the statements made, and have not been guided solely by a regard to public considerations.

Company.

It is alleged that the Companies, in their returns, have not disclosed the full value of their respective properties. To this the Company reply that, while they have rendered a full return of their income, they consider that any endeavour to fix a hypothetical value on their property, apart from a statement of the income derived from it, and of the outgoings and mode of expenditure of the net proceeds, would have involved special, needless, and very costly valuations, and would not have aided. the inquiries of the Commissioners. The rated value of the properties for occupation obviously bears no relation to the Company's interests therein, which in many cases are those of ground landlords only. They have desired to give every information in reference to the whole of their property, as on every other subject of the Commissioners' inquiries.

On the general question of the Company's right to the absolute and plenary possession and uncontrolled disposal of its corporate property, it is sufficient simply to recall attention to the second paragraph of their return already made, in which it is stated, with perfect accuracy, that no part of it has been derived directly or indirectly from any public source, but the whole from its own members or from other private sources. What has been purchased has been paid for out of the Company's own moneys. Where it has been acquired subject to any condition, the condition has been fully and loyally performed.

On this subject a passing reference may be made to the clear opinion expressed by the Lord Chancellor, when he appeared before the Commissioners as representing the City and Guilds Technical Institute; also to the series of decisions in the Court of Chancery in the cases relating to the Company mentioned in page 3 of the Company's Return; to the

decisions in Attorney-General v. Wax Chandlers' Company (House of Fishmongers' Lords, 1873, L. R. 6, App. 1), and Brown v. Dale (9 Ch. D. 78), and Company. to the numerous cases in which, even where trusts, and not merely conditions, were attached to the ownership, any surplus of property or income has been held (where such trusts were limited), to belong to the Company absolutely.

As respects many of the trusts confided to the Fishmongers' Company, the objects of which are of a beneficial character, the Company have made large additions to the trust property from their own funds.

In the case of Sir John Gresham's Grammar School at Holt, in Norfolk, the Company have from time to time supplemented the trust funds, especially for the purposes of rebuilding and repairs, the amount in which the trust was indebted to the Company, at a not very distant date, having been over 10,000l., and this notwithstanding the constant warnings of the Charity Commissioners that the Company were doing this at their own risk, and that they could in no case be permitted to apply any part of the capital of the trust funds in repayment of their advances; nor any part of the trust income, except within a period of thirty years.

In the case of Quested's Trust and the other trusts for the almshouses at Harrietsham, the income of which is only 1087. 10s. 4d., the Company, from their own funds, supplement the income of the charity to the extent of 300l. a year.

In the case of St. Peter's Hospital, Wandsworth, the Company, in the year 1849, from their own funds, rebuilt the almshouses at a cost of 26,8407.; and they spend annually in the support of this benefaction for their own poor members 38001. a year, although the yearly income of the trust property is only 3771. 78. 8d.

As an instance of the Company's desire to contribute largely for useful public objects, it may be mentioned that in 1875 and the two following years, they laid out above 15,000l. in erecting industrial dwellings for artisans on a portion of their property in Walworth.

The Company having been in its origin a trade guild, one of the main objects of which was the government and protection of the members of the mystery or industry, the hereditary right to membership (which could not be and cannot be abrogated short of direct spoliation of private interests), and the gradual, if slow, growth of the property of the Company, have by degrees, and in the course of many centuries, given increased prominence to its character as a benefit society. Its income has, from time immemorial, been applied for the following objects-In furtherance of objects of interest to the trade, in the comparatively few instances in which this has been practicable; in supervision of the markets and other places where fish is sold, and the seizure, condemnation, and destruction of bad and unwholesome fish; in the support or temporary aid of its poorer members; in pensions for the support and education of the children of its members, if destitute or insufficiently provided for; in aid of the sick, helpless, and aged; in support of the Company's almshouses at Wandsworth, Bray, and Harrietsham (not in doles of bread or money); in educational work and exhibitions; for objects of public charity and utility; and in hospitality and entertainments; and more recently in the prosecution of offenders against the various Acts of Parliament relating to the taking and sale of fish, passed during the last few years; and in promoting technical education.

No further explanation is probably needed unless in reference to the expenditure on hospitality and entertainments, and this, it is believed, can be fully justified, although it has been the subject of some hostile criticism. It is in accordance with the usage and practice of the City