Many years ago, he had heard Mr. Canning state in that House, that he had taken the opinion of the law officers of the Crown, who were decided that no letter could be written to the Court of Rome without incurring a premunire. He had not read the Bill at present before the House, and he, therefore, did not know whether it repealed those penalties or not. But it appeared to him, that all such penalties should be repealed; and if the Bill were not so framed as to remove them, he should suggest the propriety of inserting a clause in Committee for the purpose. tablished Church of England, under the been repealed. MR. B. ESCOTT said, that an opinion had been lately taken upon the subject mentioned by the noble Lord, and it appeared that those penalties could not be levied. However, if it should appear that such were not the case, or that too much doubt existed upon the subject, he (Mr. Escott) should be happy to introduce in Committee a clause to effect their total repeal. MR. P. HOWARD wished to correct an hon. Member opposite, who was wrong in his idea of the existing law in France regarding the Jesuits. The law did not expel them; but each community was limited to twenty in number. COLONEL SIBTHORP could adopt, in reference to this measure, but one course, and that was the consistent course, and the same that he had pursued in reference to the grant to the College of Maynooth. He did hope that the hon. Member for Oxford would take a division on his Amendment. He would say that the Protestant Church was much indebted to the hon. Member for the great ability, great exertion, and consistency which he had evinced in defending it. With regard to this mea-lic clergymen from celebrating any religi sure, he would support the suggestion of ous ceremony in any public place, and the hon. Member for Oxford, because he which would also prohibit any processions feared that, to leave the Amendment of the of Roman Catholics in any public street or right hon. Baronet unsupported, would way. He thanked the House most exhave the effect of undermining the Pro-tremely for the manner in which the Bill had testant religion in this country. CAPTAIN HARRIS thought that if any unpleasantness was attached to the subject of religion, it was entirely owing to the remissness of Government. The result of the Bill's being brought forward in its present form was, that extravagant encomiums had been passed by several hon. Gentlemen on the order of Jesuits. He did not think, however, that the Bill would pass the House of Lords. LORD JOHN RUSSELL did not wish to enter into any further argument upon the Bill. He merely wished to make a few observations with regard to the penalties to which Roman Catholics had been subjected by former enactments. There was some doubt upon the question whether the penalties which formerly attached to the holding of any intercourse by subjects of these realms with the See of Rome had MR. B. ESCOTT replied. He said that in this Act he wished to introduce a clause which would prevent Roman Catho been generally received; and he also felt thankful to those hon. Gentlemen, particularly the Member for the University of Oxford, for the arguments which they had brought forward against it. Those hon. Gentlemen begun by saying that those Acts which were obsolete should be repealed; and then they said that if there were any statutes which were of serious inconvenience to any persuasion, they ought to be repealed. He fully agreed with them so far, and thought those penal statutes which were in existence were either obsolete or inconvenient, and therefore ought to be repealed. If they were obsolete, then they were of no use, and ought to be abolished; and if they were penal, then that was a still stronger reason for their repeal. The House divided on the Question, that the word "now" stand part of the Question:-Ayes 66; Noes 23: Majority | provided by this Bill, that these persons' 43. Ebrington, Visct. Fielden, J. Fitzgerald, R. A. Forster, M. Gibson, T. M. Gisborne, T. Graham, rt. hon. Sir J. Greene, T. Grey, rt. hon. Sir G. Heathcoat, J. Russell, Lord J. Somerville, Sir W. M. Worsley, Lord Wyse, T. Herbert, rt. hon. S. Howard, P. H. Lascelles, hon. W. S. TELLERS. Escott, B. List of the NOES. Beresford, Major Hope, Sir J. pensions should be paid to Poor Law guardians, to distribute it to them for assistance. He thought that was a gross abuse; for these pensions were originally intended as rewards for past services. He knew an instance in which a board of guardians had, for a long time, withheld the payment of a pension to a poor man after quarterday came. He thought that it was a most extraordinary thing to put the payment of the pension in the hands of staff officers without the slightest explanation. The intention of the Bill was, to transfer all persons having pensions, he might say, bag and baggage, from under the control of the Admiralty into the hands of the Horse Guards. There was a reservation clause certainly; but he contended that it was of no use whatever. MR. SIDNEY HERBERT said, the principal object of this Bill was to simplify the mode in which the pensioners received their pay; and, so far from its inflicting any hardship upon them, it was proposed for the express purpose of promoting their interest. He begged to inform the hon. and gallant Member that naval pensioners were now enabled to receive their pensions while serving on board Her Majesty's ships. This Bill would not remove pensioners from the control of the Admiralty, but would place the arrangements for their payment in the hands of the Secretary at War. The naval pensions would still be granted and withdrawn by the Admiralty; but the pensions would be paid by staff officers, who at Portsmouth, Plymouth, and other naval stations, would generally be marine or naval officers. He begged to inform the hon. and gallant Officer who had adverted to the receipt of pensioners' pay by boards of guardians when they became inmates of workhouses, that at one time a great number of the pensioners dissipated their pay within a few days after they received it, and then threw themselves upon the poor rates until their pensions were again due. Not long since no less than 6,000 pensionCAPTAIN PECHELL briefly expressed ers were in this situation; but since the his dissent from the principles of this Bill, arrangement was effected enabling the as its operation was by no means calculated guardians to defray the expense of mainto benefit the interests of, or to give satis-taining such persons from their subsequent faction to these veterans. He objected to the transfer of the payment of the pensioners of Greenwich and Chelsea from the hands of the Admiralty to the hands of the Secretary at War. These pensioners never would consent to be placed under the authority of the Horse Guards. It was Estcourt, T. G. B. TELLERS. Inglis, Sir R. H. PAYMENT OF OUT-PENSIONERS BILL. MR. SIDNEY HERBERT moved the Second Reading of this Bill. pensions, the system was nearly at an end. He would, however, propose that the guardians, instead of being empowered to attach the whole pension in such cases, should only be enabled to take such portion as was necessary to defray the expenses of maintaining pensioners who were inmates of workhouses. He trusted that, under the SUPPLY. The House then resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, and on the Motion of The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, the sum of 8,000,000l. was voted to the use of Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund. LACE FACTORIES. always understood that the lace trade was different from the bulk of those businesses in which machinery was the chief means of production; and that, therefore, there was not the same objection to long hours in this business; but when the Bill was brought in, he would be able to state more explicitly his opinion respecting it. SIR G. STRICKLAND said, that the Bill about to be introduced was in direct opposition to the rules which had always been laid down, of not interfering between the adult labourer and his employer. It was going in the teeth of all they had been doing during the last twelve years. He had another objection to this Bill, for it appeared that it would allow children of tender age to be engaged during the ex till ten at night; and he thought, therefore, that it would be but wise in the hon. Gentlemen who were about to bring in this Bill to attend to this particular point. Leave given. House adjourned at halfpast five. HOUSE OF LORDS, MINUTES.] MR. T. S. DUNCOMBE, in rising to ask for leave to bring in a Bill to limit the hours of night labour in all factories where bobbin net and warp lace machinery is em-cessive hours of from six in the morning ployed, begged first to present a petition on which the Bill was founded. It was signed by 3,420 workmen engaged in the lace trade; and he should add, that his hon. Friend the Member for North Nottinghamshire had already presented a similar petition signed by the masters; so that he was happy in being enabled to cite the present as one of the few instances in which the masters and workmen agreed in their opinions. The petitioners prayed that the hours of labour might be limited to from six o'clock in the morning until ten at night; that no children under eight years of age should be permitted to be employed; and that no person whatsoever should be allowed to work before six o'clock in the morning, or after ten o'clock at night. As he (Mr. Duncombe) understood from the right hon. Baronet opposite that there would be no objection to the introduction of such a measure at the present (although the right hon. Baronet held himself free as to the course he might find it necessary to adopt subsequently), he hoped he need not then occupy the time of the House longer than by barely stating the nature of the mea sure. It would be, perhaps, better that he should go more fully into the reasons for its introduction on the second reading. SIR J. GRAHAM had always had an objection to interfering with the hours of labour. The hon. Gentleman had stated, very fairly, that he had not refused his assent to such a Bill as this being brought in, particularly as that step would not hinder him from pursuing any course he might think fit on a future occasion, and as before the second reading he would have an opportunity of reading all its provisions, and of seeing what was objectionable. He PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Borough Commissioners of the Town of Kinsale, for Alteration of the Irish Poor Law with respect to the Rating of Eleetoral Divisions. From Londonderry, for the Better Regulation, and more Efficient Support, of Medical Charities (Ireland). From Clotworthy Dobbin Devitt, late of the General Post Office, Dublin, complaining of having been dismissed from his Appointment, for Inquiry into his Case, and for Relief. PROTECTION OF LIFE (IRELAND) BILL. The EARL of ST. GERMANS moved the further consideration of the Report on this Bill. The LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving an Amendment of which he had given notice, said the clause would require to be altered, as related to the words "proofs whereof." His Amendment would place the word "whereof" so as to apply only "to the lawfulnes of the occasion" of absence during the prohibited hours, and not to " suspicious circumstances." Clause as amended agreed to. The LORD CHANCELLOR having moved a verbal amendment to the clause relating to the protection of jurors and witnesses, The EARL of CLANCARTY said, he wished to be informed if there was any law in Ireland, when murder or other capital crime was committed, to compel the attendance of witnesses? He wished to hear an answer from the noble and learned Lord opposite, who at one time held the highest judicial position in that country. but, once he entered the grocery establishment, if malt or spirituous liquors should be sold or consumed in it, he became guilty of a misdemeanor, and subjected himself to be transported for seven The LORD CHANCELLOR: The clause shall be altered. LORD CAMPBELL informed the noble Earl that his tenure of office was but for a moment. If there were not higher autho-years. rities than himself he would at once reply; but he advised the noble Earl to apply to the noble Lord on the woolsack for the information he required. Amendment agreed to. Bill to be read 3a to-morrow. House adjourned. HOUSE OF LORDS, MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1. Metropolitan Buildings. 3a and passed. Protection of Life (Ireland) (No. 2). PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Earl Fortescue, from a Public Meeting of Landowners and others, assembled at Totnes, for the Total and Immediate Repeal of the Corn Laws. By Lord Campbell, from Inhabitants of the Parish of Rathfarnham, against the Protection to Life (Ireland) Bill.-By Lord Brougham, from James Kibble, of Greenock, complaining of Deception practised towards him by the Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr, and praying for Investigation and Relief.-From Master, Wardens, Freemen, and Commonalty, of the Mystery of Vintners, praying to be exempted from the Operation of, and to be heard by Counsel against, the Charitable Trusts Bill. Glasgow, Paisley, and Greenock Railway Companies, and PROTECTION OF LIFE (IRELAND) BILL. The EARL of ST. GERMANS having moved the third reading of this Bill, LORD CAMPBELL directed attention to the injurious and unjust effect which the 11th Clause of the Bill would have if left in its present form, as it made it a misdemeanor punishable with transportation for any person to be in any dwelling-house one hour before sunrise, or one hour after sunset, if in that dwelling-house there should be consumed any malt or spirituous liquors, without saying one word about being so found under suspicious circumstances. So that the corpus delicti consisted simply in being in a house in which malt or spirituous liquors were sold or consumed, although the person so offending might be there for a just and lawful purpose. But according to the wording of the 11th Clause, it would be no defence for him to show that he was there for a lawful purpose. The noble and learned Lord illustrated the injustice and inconvenience of such an enactment by observing that a person wishing to buy groceries for a family, and proceeding to an establishment for that purpose, after sunset, would not be guilty of a misdemeanor, because he could show, while on the highway, that he was about a lawful purpose; The EARL of ST. GERMANS complained of the noble and learned Lord for not having suggested the alteration he required when the Bill was in Committee, or on the bringing up of the Report. The clause in question had not been altered or amended since the printing of the Bill; and if the noble and learned Lord had suggested the alteration even privately to the the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack, his communication would have received attention. The clause was every intended to apply only to public houses that were not licensed, commonly called shebeen" houses. 66 The LORD CHANCELLOR, to meet the objection of the noble and learned Lord, moved to alter the clause by leaving out the word "consumed," and inserting, instead, the words " usually sold." This alteration, he thought, would make the clause more satisfactory, and render it impossible to be applied in the cases cited by the noble and learned Lord. The EARL of ST. GERMANS was quite willing to adopt the Amendment suggested by his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack. Amendment agreed to. PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Arthur Taylor, from Landowners, Farmers, Tradesmen, and others of Bellbroughton, against the proposed Government Measure respecting Customs and Corn Importation.-By Lord John Russell and Mr. Wynn Ellis, from Importers and Manufacturers of Silk Goods, for a Speedy Adjustment of the Silk Duties.-By Mr. Hinde, from Members of the Committee of the General Shipowners' Association of London, against the proposed Measure respecting Timber.-By Mr. Jervis, from Churchwardens and Vestrymen of the United Parishes of Saint Margaret and St. John the Evangelist, Westminster, against Institution of Night Asylums for the Poor.-By Mr. Brotherton, from Factory Workers in the Employ of Mr. Lord, in the Township of Manchester, for Limiting the Hours of Labour of Children and Young Persons employed in Factories to Ten.-By Mr. Thomas Duncombe, from George Phillips, Licensed Victualler, in the Borough of Leicester, complaining of Post Office Mismanagement. SPANISH SUGARS. LORD J. RUSSELL apprehended that the right hon. Baronet would be able at once to answer the question he was about to put. In the Papers presented as the correspondence with Spain, Lord Aberdeed stated that it was intended to make a proposition to the Government of Spain on the commercial relations of the two countries, but he added that it was not intended to touch the question of the Slave Trade. The question he had to ask was, whether it was proposed, or not proposed, to admit the sugars of the Spanish Colonies as those of the most favoured nations? SIR R. PEEL said, that the proposal made by Government did not contemplate the admission of the sugar of Cuba. FAMINE IN IRELAND. calculated to contain about one per cent of the population, so that in some Unions not more than twenty or thirty paupers could be relieved. Under these circumstances, the course that seemed to him open to Government was, to bring in a Bill into Parliament, at the beginning of the Session, to require and authorize guardians of the poor to make provision for the relief of the destitute in their districts. That, in his opinion, would have been the proper course; but Government had undertaken to secure the population of Ireland against famine. He had no wish to detain the House, but merely to preface his question, and to explain how it was that Ministers had volunteered a responsibility that in fact belonged to the owners of land and property in Ireland. He thought that the first right to the food grown in Ireland lay in the people of Ireland. If it should be the determination of Ministers not to allow outdoor relief, he should feel it his duty to bring a measure or a resolution upon the subject before the House. The hon. Member concluded by repeating his question in the terms he had before used. SIR J. GRAHAM wished to answer the question immediately. Certainly, the attention of Government had been directed with peculiar anxiety to this very difficult subject. The hon. Member sitting next to the hon. Gentleman who put the question, had spoken to him (Sir J. Graham) upon the point about a fortnight ago, and he had then said that it was not the intention of a Government to propose any permanent measure for outdoor relief to the people of Ireland. MR. P. SCROPE would ask a question now which he had given notice he would put yesterday, when the House did not sit. It was this-Whether the measures of Government for meeting the impending scarcity in Ireland, contained any guarantee that every individual in immediate danger of perishing from want, should be enabled to obtain relief from some local authority, as in England? Every day more and more distressing accounts were received; and the right hon. Secretary of State would, therefore, not think it impertinent in him to inquire whether Ministers meant to undertake the responsibility of securing those who were in danger of perishing from destitution in Ireland, from such a calamity? Not that he considered it within their province so to do; but the course they had taken seemed to impose upon them that responsibility. He thought that the duty properly belonged to the FEVER AND FAMINE (IRELAND). local authorities, to the boards of guardians SIR J. GRAHAM: I hope that, by and the landlords; but Ministers appeared the indulgence of the House, I may be perto have taken the burden off their shoul-mitted to make a Motion before it proceeds ders, and to have put it upon their own. In England, if any such calamity occurred as that which now threatened Ireland, it would not be the duty of Government to interfere the Poor Law guardians in the different Unions would have to apply a remedy to the emergency. They would have done so, no doubt, from the commencement of the winter; but in Ireland the case was different; there, the boards of guardians had not only no right to relieve the poor out of doors, but they were expressly forbidden from giving relief in any other shape than by admission into the workhouse. The workhouses were only to the Orders of the Day. I ask this favour under circumstances of urgency. If the House had met yesterday, it was my inten tion to have made the Motion then, and it is for leave to bring in a Bill to make temporary provision for the treatment of destitute persons affected with fever in Ireland. Only yesterday morning Government received from the Lord Lieutenant a Report from the Commission appointed to watch the advance of distress arising out of the failure of the potato crop, announcing that, in all the provinces, almost in every county, and in various localities of different counties, dysentery, to a very formidable extent, |