Phillpotts, J. Price, Sir R. Protheroe, E. Pulsford, R. Russell, Lord J. Russell, J. D. W. Wood, Col. T. Wortley, hon. J. S. Yorke, H. R. TELLERS. Young, J. List of the NOES. Bentinck, Lord G. Borthwick, P. Broadwood, H. Brocklehurst, J. Brooke, Lord Buck, L. W. Newdegate, C. N. Further proceedings postponed. House adjourned at half-past One o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Tuesday, March 17, 1846. MINUTES.] PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Campbell, from Wardens and Commonalty of the Mystery of Fishmongers of the City of London, against the Charitable Trusts Bill.-From Inhabitants of the Town and Parish of Dungannon, for Alteration of the Poor Law (Ireland). -From Monmouth, in favour of the Corn Laws. THE OREGON NEGOTIATIONS. The EARL of CLARENDON: In pursuance of the notice I gave yesterday, I now beg leave to move for the production of such correspondence between my noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and Her Majesty's Minister at Washington, respecting the Oregon territory question, as my noble Friend may not think it inconsistent with his duty to lay on the Table; and I think it will be quite unnecessary for me, in so doing, to assure your Lordships that it is the furthest possible from my intention to wish either to embarrass Her Majesty's Government, or to press for the premature disclosure of any information, or in any way to interfere with any negotiations which I trust may be still in progress. But, my Lords, when we consider the magnitude of the interests involved in the solution, whether by peace or war, of the question now in dispute be- | rican newspapers that some time since the tween this country and the United States negotiations were suspended, and all pro-when we consider the deep anxiety with ceedings put an end to. It is the furthest which intelligence from the other side of from my intention to impute any blame to the Atlantic is looked for here, and the in- our Representative at Washington; for I fluence which it necessarily exercises upon believe that British interests cannot be commercial and financial affairs, I think it confided to a Minister more competent, enis important that we should not be altoge-lightened, and conciliatory than Mr. Pather dependent upon American newspapers kenham; and I will not doubt, therefore, for such information as may have been although we are not acquainted with them, produced to the Congress respecting the that the reasons which influenced him to actual state of affairs in this transaction. decline forwarding to my noble Friend the For many weeks, and almost up to the proposal of the American Government, have present time, this question has been de- been consistent with this character. But bated in Congress; while in Parliament, of this I am sure, that my noble Friend, which has been now sitting for nearly two in instructing Mr. Pakenham to renew months, no allusion even has been made to those negotiations, faithfully represented it, except by my noble Friend the noble the opinions and fulfilled the wishes of the Marquess (Marquess of Lansdowne), and people of this country. My noble Friend, by my noble and learned Friend near me in departing from the ordinary course of (Lord Brougham) on the first night of the diplomacy, and desiring that the question Session; and also, I believe, on one single of title as well as that of territorial division occasion in the House of Commons. My should be submitted to any Sovereign or Lords, I think this silence has been well Government, or any competent individuals judged and becoming. I think that it has of either country, pursued what was in my exhibited in both Houses of Parliament a opinion a most judicious and well-consiprudent determination to leave the Go-dered course. For, my Lords, we have vernment completely unfettered in its ac- thereby given the best proof to the world tion, not to interfere in those negotiations, that we have advanced no claim in the for which Parliament cannot be properly justice of which we do not ourselves conresponsible, nor to aggravate angry feeling fide; and we have given proof that however by unnecessary discussion. This course confident we ourselves may be of the has been well understood and appreciated validity of our own claims, yet so little deat home; but abroad it is liable to miscon- sirous are we of obstinately adhering to struction, and it has been misconstrued. I them, that we are anxious that our whole think it is our duty to guard ourselves case should be submitted to any impartial against the notion, that we are so deter- tribunal, and are ready to abide by its demined upon peace, that we are indifferent cision. I think this course places us in a to all preparations for war; and I think it proper condition; and I say it was a necesbest to guard ourselves against the suspi- sary one, because the people of this country cion, on the part of any other country, that will not consent to engage in war until we would submit to a peace purchased by they are satisfied that every step necessary concessions which are incompatible with to maintain peace has been exhausted. national honour. But your Lordships will They will not themselves endure, nor will bear in mind, that although the language they inflict, on the United States the disof the two Governments, as far as we are astrous consequences of a contest so unacquainted with it, has been inspired by natural and unnecessary, until they are pacific sentiments; and although the in- convinced that there exists on the part of formation which reaches us from America the United States a determination to injure is of the same character, yet we cannot and insult us. Should that unhappily prove diguise from ourselves that the two coun- to be the case, national feeling would be tries appear to be gradually, but involun- aroused, and Her Majesty's Government, tarily, drifting towards war. I think, I am convinced, might securely reckon on therefore, that the time is come when my the cordial, firm, and unflinching support noble Friend may, without indiscretion, be of all classes in defence of our rights and asked to lay upon your Lordships' Table vindication of our honour. But, my Lords, such correspondence, or to furnish the that there should be any such determinaHouse with such information, as it may tion on the part of the United States apnot be for the public interest to withhold. pears to me little less than a moral imposMy Lords, we have learned from the Ame-sibility; for I really believe that in the vice; and also to inquire of my noble Friend what course the Government propose to adopt in the event of the Senate of the United States concurring in the Resolution to give the twelve months' notice, although I will venture to express a hope that such notice, so far from being received as a hostile declaration, may be viewed by us simply as a determination on the part of the American people, that the whole question shall be settled within a twelvemonth, but in a manner satisfactory to the honour and interest of both countries, and therefore calculated to render more enduring those friendly relations which have hitherto subsist influence, I trust, will never be dissolved. The noble Earl concluded by moving― "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that there be laid before this House a Copy of so much of the Correspondence between Her MaHer Majesty's Minister at Washington, respecting jesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the Oregon Territory, as can be produced without Injury to Her Majesty's Service." annals of history there will not be found a record of any event equally wicked and disgraceful as that of two nations mutually dependent upon each other, bound together by the strictest ties of reciprocal feeling owing to the determined refusal by one of any peaceful offer made by the other going to war for the possession of an unoccupied territory, the whole fee-simple of which is well known to be of such insignificant value as not to compensate the losses and miseries that one single month of war must produce. It is true there does exist in the United States a party so reckless as to be ready to engage in war-true it is that by this party we have been rudely as-ed between them, and which in their mutual sailed that our claims have been repudiated, and our whole policy misrepresented; but I must say I think that for this party great allowance must be made, and we must not be too prone to take offence at what may be attributed to the peculiar institutions of the United Statesto the immediate influence of the popular will, and the electioneering habits of public The EARL of ABERDEEN: In the men in America-motives of action with present very delicate and critical state of which we ourselves are always more or less this negotiation, it may perhaps appear to familiar at home. But that this party your Lordships that I should have acted should faithfully represent the opinions and with more prudence if I had declined to wishes of the great and enlightened ma- enter upon the topic; but however this jority of the people of the United States, may be, I was quite certain that in the case does, I must say, seem to me a moral im- of my noble Friend, his sense of propriety, possibility. I cannot believe that in a and his intimate knowledge of the great country whose state of civilization is equal interests involved, would prevent him from to our own-in a country where statesmen adding anything to the difficulties with are to be found as sagacious and enlight- which this subject is already environed; ened as any in the world-where wealth and I will likewise say that his own private and knowledge are as widely diffused as in feelings would indispose him to make it the England-where they must assert the same subject of any personal embarrassment. power and confer the same advantages- This expectation has been fully realized and where, as among ourselves, morality by the statement he has made. I think and religion exercise the same degree of in- the desire expressed by my noble Friend fluence in such a country, I cannot be- is perfectly natural and perfectly reasonlieve that such intentions can prevail, or able. It is quite natural that when we that the people and Government of the receive from time to time from the United United States would rush into a war with- States information and documents of the out any just cause, and that, at the mo- highest interest and importance, affecting ment when America, of all countries in the us in such a manner as this transaction world, will be the foremost and largest must do-it is perfectly natural that your partaker in that enlightened system of Lordships and the public should desire to commerce which we, for our own welfare, receive from the Government of this counand without reference to other nations, try authentic information respecting these were about to adopt-and the intelligence transactions, accompanied by such docuof which, I understand, has been read in ments as it may be safe and proper to proAmerica with all the satisfaction it was duce. I therefore declare that I know of calculated to excite. I think on the pre- no valid valid reason to object to the prosent occasion it is quite unnecessary for me duction of the Papers for which my noble to do more than move for the production of Friend has asked, especially as the greater such correspondence as can be produced proportion of them must be already well consistently with regard to the public ser-known to your Lordships and the public. the Papers to which I have referred may be as I have described-I cannot bring myself to believe that any reasonable doubt can remain of our being able to bring this matter to a satisfactory termination. I have no doubt of the sincere desire of both Governments to arrive at this result; and I hope that my noble Friend will not think me guilty of any uncourteous conduct if I decline to inform him of the steps which, in the present juncture of affairs, Her Majesty's Government may think proper to take. He may depend on it, that believing as I do that war is the greatest calamity that can befall a nation, and thinking also that it is generally the greatest crime a nation can commit, he may rely on it that every effort to avert this national calamity will be employed. It would be presumptuous in me to pretend any claim to your Lordship's confidence beyond that which I may fairly prefer as a Minister of the Crown; but if I might be allowed to express a hope, it would be that the conduct of this transaction shall be forbearing, conciliatory, moderate, and just, without producing any sacrifice, I confidently trust, of honour or real interest. My Lords, after all, it is certainly possible that our efforts may prove fruitless. In this case I can only say that it will be my endeavour not only to secure the confidence and support of every one of your Lordships, but to secure the approbation also of every state in Europe, and of the whole civilized world. Lords, I think my noble Friend will perhaps not expect me to go farther into this subject at present; and I will only conclude the few words I have said, by repeating emphatically what Her Majesty has already been graciously pleased to say from the Throne, that no effort will be spared, consistently with national honour, to bring this question to an early and peaceful termination. But I must reserve to myself the discretion of, for the present, suppressing a large portion of that correspondence which has taken place between Her Majesty's Ministers and myself, the production of which just at the present present moment would, I think, be likely to lead to injurious consequences. I will say that I should not have been disposed voluntarily to have laid on the Table any such information as I am now called upon to produce. In the first place, it is quite unusual in the midst of negotiations of this magnitude, without any special object in view, to produce to Parliament an account of the particular position in which we find ourselves at this moment. It is true that the United States have acted differently, but their situation is quite different from ours. The Executive Government of the United States have to call upon the Legislature to take a direct course on this subject. The President proposed to the American Legislature a certain measure, to which he required their assent, and of course he was under the necessity of furnishing them with the materials on which to form their opinion in coming to a conclusion on the message so addressed; but this was not the case with us. Her Majesty's Government have no intention of calling on Parliament at this moment for any opinion, nor do I understand that it is the intention of my noble Friend, or any other Member of this House, at present to call on Parliament to pronounce its opinion upon what has happened in the course of this transaction. This, therefore, would have indisposed me voluntarily to have laid any information on the Table at the present moment; and another reason would also have made me unwilling to do so; for I must admit, that from the aspect of the negotiation, as represented in the Papers produced in the United States, and which I am in a condition to produce to your Lordships, an inference might fairly be drawn not favourable to the probable future result of that negotiation. From some of those Papers auguries unfavourable to the success of the negotiation might be drawn; and I should be indisposed, therefore, to submit to the House, at the stage of the negotiation at which we have now arrived, communica-rably discharged the duties of his high tions calculated to place it in such a light. I say, that such an opinion it would not be unnatural to form, but it is my decided conviction that it would be unwarranted and groundless. I cannot bring myself to believe however the effect produced by My LORD BROUGHAM wished to take this opportunity of saying that he had received a letter from a worthy and most able Friend of his (Mr. Everett), late Minister for the United States, than whom there never was any person amongst all the Ministers of that country who more admi office. Mr. Everett was stated by him (Lord Brougham) at an earlier period of this Session to have purchased a globe marked with red ink, on which there was a line drawn favourable to the American pretensions, and adverse to ours. This ticular advantage, or on the supposition that either has undisputed rights; for it is impossible to deny that both States have pretensions to the territory in dispute, and that the only question is how the disputed claims can be settled in a manner which any reasonable man shall say is a reasonable settlement. I think Europe and the world have a right to expect from us and from them that such should be the principle on which our negotiations proceed; and I am sure that on our parts they cannot be in safer hands than in those of my noble Friend (Earl of Aberdeen). I hope I may add, from my own experience, and from my knowledge of the feelings of the people of that country, my confident belief that these negotiations will be brought at last to a safe and honourable conclusion. globe had been appealed to by a person in high office in America, as turning the balance in favour of their claim, and he thought it his duty, being in possession of the fact, to state publicly here that it was not wonderful the globe should be favourable to them, inasmuch as an alteration had been made in it after the order for its purchase had been given by the American Minister. In fact, this was done by the tradesman for the purpose of paying a compliment to the purchaser; and he ventured to say that his honourable and distinguished Friend Mr. Everett had no hand in, nor even been privy to, the artifice. Mr. Everett now said, in confirmation of his statement, that he had had no personal communication whatever with the globemaker, but had given the order through another person. I can only add (pursued the noble and learned Lord) on the subject of the statements made by my noble Friends, THE BELLEROPHON AND RODNEY. that I join my hearty wishes with theirs, The EARL of WILTON called the attention and express my confident hope that all of the House to the extraordinary rapidity those negotiations, thorny and troublesome with which the above ships, from being totally as they now seem, will lead to a happy is- unrigged, were lately fitted out for sea. sue. And should, unhappily for us, un- In two days and a half they were fitted out, happily for America, and unhappily for the even to heavy ordnance and all sorts of whole human race, these so just expecta-provisions, for whatever service they might tions he frustrated, then all mankind will be required for. Nothing was more calcufind that no blame can be imputed to, or,lated to show the nations of Europe what at all events, rest upon us; and, moreover, that if the calamity of war shall be precipitated on us, looked on though it be now by all the subjects of the Crown with the utmost possible aversion, it will, in such an event, be looked on by none with apprehen sion or alarm. LORD ASHBURTON: Nobody is more willing than I am to admit that negotiations of the descriptions alluded to should be conducted with all possible prudence and caution; and that every precaution should be taken that the honour of the country shall in no respect be tarnished. I also perfectly concur in the opinion that the possibility of two countries in the state of civilization of America and this country, having the madness to become involved in war for a question worthless in itself, and for nothing but a mere question of honour, is an alternative which, whatever be the unfortunate expressions used by individuals, yet I, for one, relying on the sterling good sense which is the characteristic of these two countries above all others, cannot for a moment contemplate as likely to occur. Nothing is more absurd than to suppose that either country should enter on these negotiations with a view to gain any par The Address was then agreed to. our navy was capable of, in the event of our being forced to engage in the greatest of calamities, war. The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH bore testimony to the truth of the description given of the energy and skill of the crews of those vessels. |