missioners, and boards of works? It was all very fine to talk of teaching the Irish people to depend on themselves, and to buy oats and barley for their own use. Where were they to get money to purchase food? A vast proportion of the Irish population had no money in their pockets to buy either such provision as was indigenous to the soil, or such as might be imported. What arrant nonsense it was, then, to bid them buy food! Were they to be starved to death pending the arrival of the period when riches would come upon them? Extraordinary cases must have extraordinary remedies. Let the nostrums of political economists be flung aside. If famine and disease were approaching, these evils should be met in time, and, if possible, averted. Were the people to starve and rot in pestilential lazars? Certainly not. He was anxious to know whether the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department would be able to explain, by means of the Reports which he intended to lay upon the Table, the reasons why there was not a more accelerated progress made in carrying into effect the measures which had already been passed in that House to facilitate the employment of the Irish people in public work? [Sir JAMES GRAHAM observed that the Bills in question had not received the Royal Assent until within the last few days.] The question then was, what were the Irish poor to do in the interval? They were told that it was useless to depend on the landlords. In what a dilemma were the sufferers placed? For his own part, he would declare that there was no proposition, whether conformable or irreconcilable with the principles of political economy, which he would not support, if its tendency were to secure the welfare and the salvation of the Irish people. place. Three days since authority had been given to the Board of Works in Ireland to undertake important public works in the county of Clare and the county of Meath, these being the districts of the country in which the distress appeared to be most oppressing; and if any delay h taken place it had unavoidably resua from the necessity of ascertaining what description of works it was most desirable should be undertaken. MR. POULETT SCROPE observed that there was no measure which the Government could adopt with a view to relieve the distress and difficulty in which the Irish people were now placed which would not command his warmest and most cordial support. A noble Lord opposite had censured the hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. Smith O'Brien) because of his taking part in the repeal agitation; but if anything could justify an Irishman or an Englishman in advocating the repeal of the Legislative Union between the countries, it was the contemplation of this fact, from year to year, that the Irish people were not treated as the English people were by that House. He put it to the conscience of the Members of that House to say whether they had dealt with the people of Ireland as they had dealt with the English people. In England the peasantry had the first claim on the produce of the land, and justly so, because their labour went in a great degree to create it; but in Ireland, where the agricultural produce was created by the toil of the agricultural classes in a much greater degree even than in England (for in England the soil was more indebted to the expenditure of capital than in Ireland), the population were treated with no such respect or consideration. In England the claim of the agricultural classes to food was so to speak-the first charge upon the soil. No man could starve in England as long as means for his support The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER did not wish to detain the House by any lengthened remarks upon the sub-were to be found in his parish. Before the ject, with respect to which general unani- landlord could touch one penny of rent for mity appeared to prevail; but as the hon. his estate, especial care was taken that the Member who had just sat down appeared poor man should not be reduced to starvato be under the impression that some un- tion. But this unhappily was not the case necessary delay had taken place in carry-in Ireland. In Ireland there were many ing into effect the measures which had considerations which intervened between been lately passed by that House for promoting public works in Ireland, he felt himself called upon to say a single word in explanation. The Bill under which authority was given for increased grants had only been passed a few days ago, and no delay which was at all avoidable had taken the poor man's claim and the produce of the land; and as long as this was so, how could they censure the Irish people for being discontented, and for complaining that the same measure of justice was not granted to them which was awarded to the people of England? The right hon. Baro that the poor rate should be applied this extreme destitution. It had been said by the right hon. Baronet, "let the landlords do their duty;" and he was one of those who said it was the duty of the land net the Secretary of State for the Home Department had intimated his intention of in the first instance for the relief of introducing a Bill, one of the provisions of which was to give to boards of guardians additional power to grant relief; but this additional relief was only to be granted to such of the population as had been pros-lords of Ireland to provide for the poor. trated by disease, and were actually He repeated the maxim, "that property stretched upon the fever-bed. It occurred has its duties as well as its rights," and to him that a much wiser and more humane he felt it was the duty of landlords to see proceeding would be to adopt some mea- that the people on their estates did not sures to prevent the population from being starve. He was not one of those who reduced to such a dreadful condition. It wished to impeach the humanity or genewas an essential condition to the right of rosity of the landlords of Ireland. He did enjoying the relief which was to be in the not wish to say anything against them as gift of the boards of guardians, that the a body; but he defied any one to deny applicants should be prostrated by disease; that the landlords of Ireland, however they but this he considered an impolitic, cruel, might do their duty as a body, individually and most unwise economy. In England did not do their duty. He repeated, that the mere fact of a man being in a state of he thought the property rateable for the destitution was sufficient to entitle him to relief of the poor should first be made subrelief. Why should it not be so in Ireland ject for the support of the poor; and if the as well? Why should illness be added destitution became so great that contrias a necessary condition? If any butions were necessarily required from person came before a board of guar- individuals and from the Government, dians who was supposed to be an im- he should not, in a great emergency, postor, let them apply the same test to object to it. He asked what was the him in Ireland as was applied in England. amount of the poor rate at present made in Let them put him to hard work, and they Ireland? He doubted very much if it would soon find out whether he was an im- reached twopence in the pound-he was postor or not; or they might apply the sure it did not reach threepence; but further test of outdoor employment on pub- in England the poor rate, on an average, lic works. Let them apply both or either was from two to three shillings in the of these tests, if necessary; but let them pound; and until something more than not refuse the poor man in Ireland the twopence in the pound was contributed tofood that was necessary to keep him in wards the relief of the poor by the property health until he was suffering from fever, of Ireland, why should it be said that the and then take him in as a fever patient. property of Ireland was overburdened by It was proposed that an absentee tax, or a the very natural and just responsibility property tax, should be established; but that was imposed upon it? in his mind the best tax to be applied for the purpose was an ordinary poor rate. If the landlord found that he must maintain the people on his property if they could not maintain themselves, he would come to look after his property. The means of bringing the absentees back was to make them responsible for the due safety of the people on their estates; and, inasmuch as that would be a tax on the rental of Ireland, it would be the best property tax that could be applied for the purpose. He conceived that the poor rate should be applied for the support of the destitute out of the workhouse when the workhouse was not capable of affording them accommodation. The proposition of the hon. Member for Finsbury coincided with that which he attempted to urge upon the House, namely, MR. BANKES said, it appeared to him that there was now forced upon the attention of the House that which must have occurred to the minds of many people, namely, when the Government was in possession of that important information with reference to Ireland, and when they had it in the month of October last, surely it was their bounden duty to call together the Parliament in the month of November, by which course of proceeding those difficulties of which they now complained would not have occurred. Those votes of public money would then have been taken, and long before this time that money would have been transmitted to Ireland, and those beneficial measures which were contemplated would be now in operation. Instead of now discussing the consequences of the want of food in that country, namely, the fever which had arisen amongst the people, caused by their privations, they might have the hope of preventing, instead of curing, those mischiefs which now called for their attention. He was at a loss to know what answer the Government had to give to the observation which so naturally arose on this subject. They were in possession of that full information which did produce considerable uneasiness and disquiet in their minds; and surely the natural course to have been taken with reference to Bills to furnish employment to the people of Ireland was to call together the Parliament at the earliest possible period. If they did so, the money would now be circulating in that country, and the people would not now be in the state which was represented. As he (Mr. Bankes) had risen to make this observation, he would say, that having heard the speech of his right hon. Friend the Recorder of Dublin, he must say, that in his humble opinion the comments made in that speech were most unfairly made. He did not hear his right hon. Friend make any statement stronger than this, that having been last week in Ireland, he felt it a relief to his mind to be able to say, that he thought the extreme accounts of distress had been exaggerated; but that he did find the distress to be great, and, in fact, greater than was usual at this period of the year. He (Mr. Bankes) thought there was nothing in that statement which should cause an imputation to be cast on the benevolence of his feelings, when he declared it was a relief to his mind to be enabled with truth to make such a statement. With reference to the speech of the hon. Member for Finsbury, which gave rise to this discussion, he (Mr. Bankes) must say it had his cordial concurrence. He agreed in the hon. Member's observations. He coincided not only in the tone and everything that fell from him was always in the tone of humanitybut in the spirit of his observations. He must say that the hon. Member's speech had been much misrepresented. The hon. Member did not say that the suggestion he offered was to be considered as one of a permanent nature. The hon. Member merely proposed that it should be of a temporary nature, with a view to afford the most efficacious remedy for the evils which were now prevalent. The hon. Member said, instead of physic, try what food will do. He concurred in that suggestion, and he trusted the Government would give it their attention. SIR VALENTINE BLAKE agreed with the hon. Member who spoke last, that food was the thing required in Ireland. He suggested the improvement of waste lands in Ireland by the Government, and declared it to be his opinion that the hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. S. O'Brien) had been hardly dealt with. MR. SMITH O'BRIEN begged to be permitted to say a few words, but he was not going to reply to the personalities of the noble Lord the Member for Tyrone. He could not think of taking up the time of the House by observations of such a nature; but he would say, with reference to the expenditure of money in Ireland, to which the noble Lord had alluded, that the people who subscribed that money were the best judges how it should be employed. He wished that what he had said should be distinctly understood. He confessed that his feelings, in common with a large number of his fellow countrymen, had been greatly exasperated by the tone-not so much taken in that House as by the press of England-with respect to those miserable grants. But the fact was, that Parliament had only granted them 100,000l., for all the rest were loans; and he, on the part of the people of Ireland, so far as one individual could speak in their name, said, let them pass a law to give them the four or five millions which were now drawn by absentees out of their country, and they would give them back their 100,000l. He considered it to be the duty of Parliament to give them good laws, that would bring the industry of the country into operation; and if Parliament met in the month of November to enact good laws, instead of now coming forward with a Coercion Bill, they would not be under the necessity of making those painful appeals to Parliament. MR. W. MILES said, if the hon. Member for Limerick had been in his place during the late discussions, he would have found that every Member on both sides of the House had been ready to come forward in every possible way to assist the Government in providing for the distress of the people of Ireland. All the information the Government had on the subject had been brought forward, and Government had received the ready assent of the House in moving to take off the duty on maize and all food necessary for the people of Ireland. Moreover, he would tell the hon. Member that, if instead of 100,000l., the Government had thought it necessary to ask for a not vote of ten times that sum, he was certain | printed. He would also find a statement the British House of Commons would have appended to that Return, to which he readily assented to it to relieve the distress would take the opportunity of calling the of the population of Ireland. But the mea- hon. Member's attention-namely, that it sures which the hon. Gentleman (Mr. S. afforded no safe criterion for the future, O'Brien) proposed, were the very worst inasmuch as it was stated, that from the that could be devised to meet the exigency; progress of the disease many of the crops for months must be spent in their discus- would be utterly destroyed in the course of sion, during which time hundreds and thou- the month following. With respect to the sands of the Irish people might perish of number of workhouses, he had no objection disease and famine. What was to be done to a Return, if it were wished for; but he should be done immediately. Sanatory must observe, it would be altogether useestablishments for diseased persons should less. The hon. Member must see, that as be established in all parts of Ireland, more the inmates of the present workhouses were particularly in those districts where the not affected with disease, there would be disease was already prevalent; and not the greatest danger in introducing amongst only this remedy, but all remedies should them persons who were suffering from it, be brought at once into operation. It and that, consequently, it would be neceswould be necessary, also, that they should sary to erect others for the purpose. The be assisted in these efforts by the local hon. Gentleman had misunderstood the board and the Irish clergy and priests; for object of the measure, which was without their aid the Government could do to throw the expense of providing these little or nothing to stave off the famine hospitals on the British public, but upon which was about to reach the Irish people. the poor rate in Ireland. Before he sat down he wished to ask what had become of a Return he moved for about the first day of the Session? He then moved for a Return of the highest price of potatoes in the different market towns in Ireland on the 1st of February, for each of the last seven years. He thought great advantage would result from the production of these Papers. It must meet the observation of every Gentleman that the people of Ireland were starving in the midst of plenty. Only look at the imports from Ireland into this country. He thought this was the most lamentable position of the people of Ireland, that they should export so much, and yet be starving. It was a most anomalous position. It was only by these Papers that they could see the extent of misery which prevailed in Ireland, and the necessity for measures to render it of less frequent recurrence. He wished to know also the capacity of the different Poor Law houses now existing in Ireland, and the number of their inmates. As he understood they were about to establish new poorhouses there, he thought it well that they should first know the extent of the present accommodation, and whether some of the existing houses could not be advantageously appropriated for the purpose. MR. R. A. FITZGERALD observed that if his hon. Friend the Member for Limerick had expressed himself strongly, every allowance must be made for his feelings. If that Parliament sat in Dublin, and English Members came over there to press on the Legislature the distress of their country, he should hope, for the honour of humanity, that they would express themselves in terms not less forcible. As an Irish Member, he, for one, begged to thank his hon. Friend for his speech; and to say that he believed him entitled to the heartfelt gratitude of his countrymen for the course which he was taking, both in the House and out of it. He had heard it said that the distress of the Irish people was exaggerated. For his own part, he believed no language could adequately describe it; and he knew for a fact, that, in his own county of Waterford, there were 40,000 people with little or nothing to support them. MR. VILLIERS said, one observation which fell from the hon. Member for Somersetshire (Mr. Miles) seemed to him so remarkable that he would ask the attention of the House to it. The hon. Member said, that it was a distressing thing that, while there was so much distress among the people of Ireland, we should be imSIR J. GRAHAM begged to call the porting their produce. Now, he would hon. Gentleman's attention to the Votes of just suggest to the hon. Member a mode of the 9th March. On that day he would find correcting this evil. Let them get that the Return he moved for respecting pota-produce elsewhere. But it was the busitoes was presented, and ordered to be ness of the hon. Member's life to prevent MR. NEWDEGATE said, it appeared to him that the ideas of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. Villiers) were so concentrated on the one object of free trade, that he could not see any circumstances which might render its adoption more or less advantageous at one time than another. The argument of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton was, in his opinion, a perfect fallacy. MR. FINCH said, if all the Irish corn were to be driven out of the English Ireland would be benefited by the prosperity of English manufactures. The great cause of Irish suffering was the want of a demand for labour; and the greatest curse that could be inflicted upon Ireland would be the introduction of the produce of Polish or Russian labour. In his opinion Her Majesty's Government had taken the fittest course in the measure before the House to remedy the existing evil; and though he differed with them upon other points, he considered that they deserved the thanks of the country for their prompt exertions to put an end to famine and disease. this. He believed the price was not higher | advocate the repeal of the Union. He here than in Ireland. Then let their pro- merely said that if he were an Irishman, duce remain there, and let the Irish people and saw the interests of Ireland were not consume their own produce. Then the regarded by the Imperial Legislature, he hon. Gentleman said another thing. In should advocate that mode of obtaining his benevolence towards the people of Ire-justice for his countrymen. land, he would restrict the commerce of the country, forgetting that without the employment it afforded, the people would have still less money in their pockets to buy food. Let the hon. Member inquire into the matter, and he would find that whenever there was distress in the manufacturing districts the Irish people were more distressed than at other periods. Let the hon. Member reflect that there were 600,000 Irish people in this country who were dependent upon the prosperity of our manufactures, and that it was that pros-market, he did not see how the people of perity which enabled them to put money into their pockets when they returned to Ireland. He had heard two hon. Members (the hon. Members for Limerick and Stroud) advocate the repeal of the Union. They offered two reasons in support of that measure. The hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. P. Scrope) said he did not wonder the gentlemen of Ireland were for repeal, when he considered how different was the condition of the people of Ireland to that of the people of England. His hon. Friend entered into a lengthened detail of his views on the subject; but he asked him whether it might not all be summed up in this, that he thought it necessary to have a poor law in Ireland? But he would ask his hon. Friend, if they were to repeal the Union, and there was a Parliament sitting in Dublin, and legislating for Ireland, whether he believed the first measure they would adopt would be a law taxing themselves for the support of the poor? He believed that if they were to have the advantage of an efficient Poor Law in Ireland, they must be indebted for it to the Legislature of England. There was another great evil they had heard of as the second reason, and that was the absence of landed proprietors from Ireland. Now that was really not the fault of the Legislature of England. But he would ask his hon. Friends from that country if they did not find some estates there of non-resident landlords better managed than those of residents, and that it was not a condition of residence that the poor should be taken poor of, and estates be well managed? For himself he thought there was no necessary connexion between these matters. MR. SCROPE explained that he did not Leave given to bring in the Bill. CUSTOMS AND CORN IMPORTATION The Report on the Customs and Corn MR. SPOONER thereupon rose to move that the Resolutions be read a second time that day six months. He felt bound to make this Motion, because he considered they were about striking a fatal blow at the prosperity of this country, and to put at hazard the national credit, by the removal of protection to British industry-that system under which commerce, agriculture, and manufactures, had attained their present state of greatness and renown. was under that principle of protection to native industry, that they had been able to compete successfully with foreign countries; under that system had grown up their ships, their Colonies, and their commerce, which had excited even the envy and admiration of Napoleon Bonaparte, It |