strength, quite adequate for the purpose reduced by the Government to which he had had the honour to belong, below the first amount, and it had been also reduced, for the sake of economy, the same season by the Government at the head of which was the noble Earl (Grey.) The establish they were required; and he confessed that he did not see the policy of continually proclaiming the inadequacy of our present force, and it did appear to him that such a statement, coming from such an authority and such a source, was cal-ment in Ireland had been more reduced culated to produce the effects which were deprecated. The Duke of Wellington explained. With regard to what he had said as to secret societies, he hoped that the noble Viscount would not run away with the opinion that secret societies were known to have existed, because it was known that there had been a secret society of United Irishmen. What he contended for was, that the existence of the United Irishmen was not known till the evidence of one gentleman let it out, and showed what the organization was; and as the existence of the society was unknown till that information was procured, and as it turned out to be afterwards a rebellion of the most formidable character, from the effects of which the country had been suffering up to the present moment; so, he said, that the same ignorance of all the events-the same inattention to this state of organization up to the recent inquiry-might possibly produce the same consequences. That was what he had contended for, and that was what he contended for still. There could be no direct evidence upon this part of the case; it must be all derived from hearsay; he did not pretend that there was the same complete organization, but all the evidence produced before their Lordships' committee went to the same point, that there was now the same ignorance of all organization as there was of the organization of the United Irishmen up to the last moment of the breaking out of the rebellion, and they ought to beware that the same events did not happen from the same organization. He had also mentioned that the peace establishment had been considerably lowered; but he did not make any comparison between the general peace establishment of this day and of the year 1830. He thought that the peace establishment was reduced in 1829, and if he was not mistaken, it was reduced again in 1832 or 1833. Therefore, in the year 1838 it was lower than in 1830. He had made no comparison, but he must remark, that on the peace establishment, as originally fixed, the force of the army was at least 10,000 higher than in 1838. It was than had been ever known on any other occasion, on account of the war in Canada His opinion had always been, and he had frequently stated it, that the establishments in Ireland, and elsewhere, ought not to have been reduced at that period and that the establishments at home, and elsewhere, ought to have been kept so complete, that the war could be carried on in the other part of the world; and he now repeated, that if proper exertions had been made two years ago, the country would not have been in the state in which he was afraid they found it at the present moment, and in which he was still more afraid they would find it a short time hence. The Earl of Roden, as the mover of the committee, must say a few words, and they should be but few. The witnesses called were the police magistrates, the agents of the police, and Major Warburton. Not knowing whom it was best to examine, the committee asked Major Warburton, and he recommended them to take the evidence of Major Rowan, Captain Despard, and others, who were examined. He thought that the comments on Major Rowan had been most severe. That gentleman again and again said, that he was an unwilling witness; he was brought there, and being on oath, he was bound to give the knowledge in his possession. He would take the evidence of any one of the other witnesses, and would compare it with the evidence of Major Rowan, and it would be found quite as strong as the evidence of that gentleman; nothing could be clearer than Major Warburton's own view of this conspiracy, extending itself, as he said, to all parts of Ireland, and increasing from day to day. He did object to the answer given to his former speech in 1837, referring to the tranquillity of Ireland, for he then knew of this wide-spreading conspiracy, and he had been fully borne out in his representations by the evidence taken before the committee. In his speech of 1837, the noble Marquess denied that there was a secret society with any political object; the evidence proved that it had a political object. Major Warburton expressly said, that it was not agrarian, but noble Marquess said then that he had no knowledge of any such oath, as he had quoted at that time. (The Marquess of Normanby: You quoted an oath which was to make Mr. O'Connell king of Ireland.] He did not read any oath of that kind. On the 16th of April, 1836, Mr. Tracy, in a letter to the Government, directly referred to this secret society, and called it a widely-spread and dangerous conspiracy, He said in that letter. that it had more of a political object. The | referred to, in person, in order that I might " In reference to my report of the 10th ulti mo, relative to a combination called 'The Shamrock Society,' lately discovered in this town, I have the honour to state, for the information of his Excellency the Lord-lieutenant, that the testimony of, alluded to in that report, has been strongly corroborated within the last three days by the concurrent evidence of two individuals who are connected with the association, and each of whom is ig norant that any information has been given by the other. The first and principal informant is -, as stated in my letter of the 25th of February; and although he denied having any knowledge of the society he is now not only ready, but anxious to give all the information in his power. He wished to communicate on the subject with the Messrs. Faussett and myself together in the first instance; but I was absent on duty, and therefore he was examined by Mr. William Fausset only, who took down the most of his statement in writing, and he has promised to meet that gentleman and me to-morrow evening, to communicate to us the proceedings of a meeting at which he is to attend this night, for the purpose of settling 'the county delegate's accounts. The second informant is who denies being a member of the society, but states that he is pressed to become one; that he knows much of the movements of the body, and has offered to conduct me to the house where I shall find the society at their occupation and their papers with them. But above-mentioned, states that ber of the society, and that is a mem -, who first gave information as to the existence of this widely spread and dangerous confederacy, states that he has been at some meetings of the society since his examination before the Crown solicitor and me on the 8th of March; that he has seen several new members initiated, and his general statements are fully borne out by the testimony of the persons above-mentioned. The several statements made by those persons, and the purport of the documents produced by - and -are too voluminous for the limits of a report, and as they are on a subject of more than ordinary importance, and requiring a very skilful mode of treatment in its development, I would wish to confer with the Solicitor-gene receive his instructions on several points of the case, which could not so well be conveyed to me by letter; but of course I could not go to Dublin for the purpose of obtaining such instructions without the orders or permission of his Excellency. I have little or no doubt, from the means of information within my reach, of being able to apprehend, if directed so to do, the members of at least one of those secret clubs in a week or two: but it occurs to me that it will be very difficult to obtain their conviction under any existing act of Parliament; their regulations and passwords being arranged with great caution, and their members being admitted by a declaration instead of an oath. The informants whose names I have mentioned are in terror lest they should be discovered, and therefore any attempt to examine them here by a person sent from Dublin would be worse than useless; but if, after my interview with the law officer of the Government, it should be thought expedient to re-examine them at all, I could easily make arrangements for having them sent up to separately, and thereby prevent their suspecting the busi ness of each other, and their associates from suspecting them to be informers against the society alluded to." He could not, therefore, conceive, how the Government could deny their existence. One part of the oath pledged the members to secrecy, and the other pledged them to turn out to assist Mr. O'Connell in obtaining justice for Ireland; he had not said a word about making Mr. O'Connell king of Ireland. He felt most grateful to the noble Duke for the assistance which he had given him when he moved for this committee, and he begged to express his sincere gratification, at the termination of the inquiry, and he hoped that the object which he had desired to be attained, the benefit of his country, would be secured, If this bill had been the consequence of that inquiry, he thanked the Government also for having taken up the subject, even though thus late. Viscount Duncannon begged again to remind their Lordships to the fact, that this bill was not produced by the inquiry before this committee. It had been brought before Parliament before the committee was appointed, or, at all events, before the any of the evidence adduced could be made public. The Bill went through Committee, and the report was ordered to be received. ---------- HOUSE OF COMMONS, Thursday, August 8, 1839. ral, or such other legal authority as I might be | Minus.) Bills. Read a arst time :-Forts of Coun ties: Administration of Justice. - Read a second time:- | committee of that House had investigated Bank of Ireland; Joint Stock Banking Companies. Petitions presented. By Mr. Fielden, from Puttenham, and several other places, against the New Poor-law.-By Mr. T. Dumcombe, from St. Andrew's, Holborn, against the Collection of Rates Bill.-By Captain T. Wood, from Ireland Charter.-By Lord J. Russell, from the Provin- fession.-By Sir R. Inglis, from the Clergy of Durham, against the Church Discipline Bill; from Clergy of Dorchester, against the Ecclesiastical Duties and Revenues Bill; and from Freshford, against a further Grant to Maynooth. By Viscount Morpeth, from Donegal, for an Alteration in the Grand Jury Laws (Ireland); and from the Geological Society of the West Riding of York shire, for the Structure of National Maps on a large scale. the subject, and, after a very laborious examination, had come to the conclusion, that the deposit should be 10 per cent. on the subscribed capital, before the bill was brought in. On the other hand, the House of Lords had also inquired into the subject, and they had found that 5 per cent. was a sufficient deposit, thus adopting the resolution which he was about to propose totidem verbis. But while a deposit of 10 per cent. was required by the standing orders of that House, that mitigation in the other House of Parliament was wholly unavailable. He considered that state of things extreinely inconvenient and objectionable, and that the high amount of deposit required by the standing orders of the House of Commons checked a number of bona fide speculations, the completion of which would have proved profitable to those concerned, and highly beneficial to the interests of the public. To remedy those evils, and to introduce a substitute which would give fair facility to bond fide undertakings, and act at the same time as a sufficient check on improper speculations, he moved that instead of the deposit of 10 per cent. required to be paid by the standing orders of railway bills, before such bills were introduced, that that deposit should be paid by two equal instalments. The first instalment of 5 per cent. before the bill was brought in, and the second, also of 5 per cent., before the concern was commenced, and that this bill should contain clauses to that effect. As an instance of the injurious effects which resulted from the present rules of the House, he would mention the case of a most important line of railroad now in contemplation from Newcastle to Edinburgh, an undertaking approved of and supported by men of character and substance; but these persons found it was a very serious matter to deposit 10 per cent. on the capital required to carry out the line, which might remain locked up totally useless for a period of two years. The persons who were anxiously concerned in the success of that line of railroad found that the deposit of 10 per cent. acted as a barrier against the progress of that useful measure. The hon. and learned Gentleman concluded by moving that the standing orders be read, which, having been done, he then STANDING ORDERS. RAILROADS.] The Attorney-General, in requesting the attention of the House to the motion of which he had given notice, for a revision of the standing orders requiring a deposit of 10 per cent. on railroads, would only occupy the attention of the House for a very short time. It would be unnecessary for him to say anything on the great advantages which the public had received from railroad communication; they had been generally felt and experienced. On Tuesday he had conducted a prosecution of great importance at the assizes in the town of Warwick, and the same evening, at six o'clock, he was in his place in that House, ready to bring on his motion, if he had not been prevented by the House havin gbeen very unfairly counted out by some persons who wanted to get rid of this motion by a side wind. He did not, however, see that he had much cause to regret the course that these persons had thought fit to pursue, because he had now a more numerous attendance, and, therefore, he had reason to expect a more numerous majority than otherwise would have supported him in this question. That question was what amount of deposit should be paid by the promoters before bills of the second class for the promotion of railroads were brought in? It had been most unfairly stated out of doors that his object was to get rid of a deposit altogether. He had no such object in view. He was quite aware of the necessity that some deposit should be made, and was as much opposed to gambling and bubble speculations as any hon. Member in the House. He admitted, therefore, the necessity that a deposit should be made. But the question for consideration was, what should moved the insertion of words to give effect the deposit be? He was aware that al to his motion, Mr. Poulett Thomson must oppose a ing soon after at a premium. He did not motion which at this period of the Session called upon the House to alter a standing order that had been in force for some time, and which had been adopted on the suggestion of a select committee which had minutely investigated the subject with great attention, and who had come to an almost unanimous opinion on the subject. His learned Friend had really brought forward no good grounds to induce the House to agree to his motion. Although his learned Friend had made some vague al lusions to useful undertakings having been prevented by the present standing order, yet the only instance he had adduced was that of an intended railroad from Newcastle to Edinburgh. His learned Friend knew better than he could pretend to do of the situation and circumstances of his constituents, but he thought it was rather too much for his learned Friend to come down to that House, and say in effect that the inhabitants of such a city as the metropolis of Scotland were so poor, so miserable, and so badly off, that they were unable to pay up 10 per cent. on the sum required for the construction of an undertaking from which they expected so much benefit; and that for such a reason the standing orders of that House should be repealed. It would have been a better, at least a plainer course for his learned Friend to have asked the House to repeal the standing order in regard to Edinburgh alone. That would have been intelligible. But instead of that, his learned Friend proposed, that for such a reason they should repeal the standing order in regard to all cases. His learned Friend said, that the security of five per cent., to be paid before the bill was brought in, and five per cent. before the work was in operation, would be a sufficient check on gambling speculations. He denied that it would be so; and whoever would read the evidence of the select committee of 1836 and 1837, moved for by the hon. Member for Bridport, would be of the same opinion, and see the mischief which the present standing order had checked. Shares were frequently as low as 20l., and a deposit of 11. only was required. That was done by attorneys and engineers, who deluded people into their schemes by bringing them into the Stock Exchange, requiring only such small deposits, and thus inducing persons of small means to amount. The capital required for the embark in them with the prospect of sell- | Newcastle and Edinburgh Railway, was believe that the regulation had stopped the progress of really useful public undertakings. Unless some security were preserved, the public would be exposed to constant annoyance from solicitors and engineers with endless schemes, which would interfere with their properties, and keep the people in constant anxiety and alarm. He really thought that his learned Friend, instead of bringing forward this motion, should have followed the example of his respected predecessor, who gave his casting vote in favour of the resolutions of the committee on this subject. Mr. O'Connell would support the motion of the learned Attorney-general, the success of which would be of great use to Ireland. It might perhaps be a calumny for the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade, to say that the people of Edinburgh were poor, but it was known to him, that the people of Dublin were so. Many important schemes were stopped in Ireland, in consequence of this standing order requiring a deposit of 10 per cent. The House had thought fit to refuse to the people of Ireland, a loan to enable them to carry on their railroads; they were thrown on their own means, and so long as the standing orders continued, he saw no prospect of thebeing able to make any progress. He thought five per cent., was a very substantial deposit. The argument of the Presi dent of the Board of Trade, that the payments might be frittered down to 11. or 21., by proving too much, established nothing at all. He trusted the House would consider a deposit of five per cent., before the bill was brought in, and another five per cent. before commencing the undertaking, a sufficient security; and that they would agree to the motion of the Attorney-general. Mr. H. Hinde said, the House had now two years' experience of these standing orders, and the result had been that no new line of railroad had been since brought under the consideration of the House. The Stone and Rugby was not a new line, but the continuation of a line which had received the sanction of the House. When the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade, spoke of the small sums which might be paid by each individual, he forgot the large aggregate 2,000,000l., and the deposit of 200,000l. | The motion would fix the deposit 50 per would be locked up for years, till the work was completed. He cordially supported the motion, and was exceedingly glad, that it had been brought forward by the hon. and learned Gentleman, and that he had been able to support his own views, and those of his constituents, and at the same time to act in a manner consistent with the duties of his public cha racter. Mr. Warburton: The committee of 1837 had investigated two cases in particular. In one of these, they found that thirty-three parties had each paid 5s., and subscribed to the amount of 234,000l. In the other case, twenty individuals paid 10s. a-piece, and subscribed for 23,000l. It was to stop such proceedings as these, that the standing order was made. At that time the standing orders required deposits of 21. 10s. How, then, could they expect to stop these proceedings by merely doubling the deposits? He did not think that the House could do real bond fide undertakings, greater benefit than maintaining these resolutions, and he should therefore oppose the motion. Mr. Freshfield said, that if the House agreed to this motion, they would be encouraging in railroads, that system of gambling, which they had put a stop to in lotteries. There would be no prospect of getting the remaining ninety-five per cent. paid up by the promoters of these speculations, if they could get their bill on paying five per cent. deposit. Speculators would bring forward schemes on such terms as would give them a right to gamble, with the intention of getting other persons to take up the concern which they themselves never intended to carry into effect. The interests of the public required that this standing order should not be disturbed. Mr. R. Stewart said, the question was one of great importance to Scotland and Ireland, and he should support the motion of his learned Friend the Attorney-general. The right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade, had endeavoured, with great tact, to stir up the pride of Scotland by an allusion to their poverty. The "pride and poverty" of Scotland was proverbial. In this case, however, he would sink the pride, and freely admit the poverty, because, unless the motion were carried, he feared that every intended line of railway in Scotland would be stopped. cent. higher than was paid under the old system, and also in addition to that, before a stone of the work could be laid, 50 per cent. additional must be paid up, so that before the land of any proprietor could be taken, the whole sum must be paid for which the House had stipulated. Lord G. Somerset objected to such a proceeding being taken at this late period of the Session, when three-fourths of the Members had left town. He thought, the present rule had not produced any practical inconvenience, and he should, therefore, vote against the alteration. Mr. Macaulay said, it appeared to him that, with regard to the general principle, they were all agreed that it was inexpedient to place obstructions in the way of bond fide undertakings; and that on the other hand, they should endeavour to check parties from bringing forward improper speculative schemes. The hon. Member for Bridport said, there had been abuses under the old standing orders, when 21. 10s. was paid, and that these abuses could not be stopped by doubling the deposit. Undoubtedly, he was not prepared to say to demonstration what the precise amount might be, he could not name the absolute multiple that would produce the desired effect, nor could he at once say that 10 per cent. was the actual thing. But he knew that many persons of the highest respectability, integrity, and substance, were prevented from going on with the line of railroad to which his hon. and learned colleague had alluded, and who would proceed with the execution of the plan if this motion were carried. That was a fact which showed that if the old amount, 21. 10s., was too low, 10l. was too high, and he should, therefore, vote for the intermediate proposition of his hon. and learned Friend. Sir R. H. Inglis said, the whole question here was about one railroad between Edinburgh and Newcastle. It was said that the alteration would benefit Ireland, but the hon. and learned Gentleman would not have brought the measure forward, except in his zeal for the interests of Scotland, and the city of Edinburgh in particular. It was said that the notices had already been given. If so, they would be legislating ex post facto. On general principles, as well as in reference to this particular case, he should oppose the proposition of the Attorney-general. |