sure. and Westminster Bank. But what was the common-sense view of the question? There was a general conviction throughout the country, that the whole monetary system must soon become the subject of searching inquiry. If that were the case, what better course could they pursue than to renew the charter for a short period-the parties would be aware, that they were entering merely into a contingent agreement, and must be prepared to accede to the terms proposed for the extension of the charter. If, on the other hand, they gave the jointstock banks the power of issuing notes, they would create great difficulties in the way of any arrangement. It would be easy to deal with the Bank of Ireland, because at the end of four years its charter would expire; but it would not be so easy to deal with the numerous joint-stock banks which had acquired the power of issuing notes. He did not say it would be right to perpetuate the Bank charter, and he would vote against any such meaHe observed that the advocates of the unrestrained power of issuing papermoney on the part of all banks, assumed on all occasions, that they were the advocates of free trade, and the enemies of monopoly, and that an unrestrained power of issue, was for the benefit of the people. There could not be a more gratuitous or unfounded assumption. It was essential, that the public should feel that their in terests were not identical with those of the issues of paper-money, and that in many instances their interests were diametrically opposed. This was not a question of free trade, it was a question of giving permanently to unauthorized individuals, that power which was an imperial function. It was the duty of the Government to secure such a medium of exchange as should be free from abuse-and that was a power which no individual or association ought to possess. (Hear, Hear!) If he were advocating an indefinite extension of the charter, then he could understand that cheer, but he was doing nothing of the kind. What was the effect of an over issue?-it produced aced great excitement and a rise of prices, which from their uncertainty were a source of inconvenience to the comparatively affluent, but which were absolute ruin to the poorer class, because it was well known, that a rise in the necessaries of life was never followed by a corresponding rise in wages, and when the re-action came, it paralyzed the commerce and manufactures of the country; for these reasons he should vote for going into Committee, and he hoped the House would agree to the bill. Mr. Shaw would take that opportunity of alluding to a petition presented by the hon. and learned Gentleman, from certain parties, complaining that the Bank of Ireland had refused to reimburse them for certain notes which had been stolen and destroyed. The amount of notes stolen was 500l., principally in small notes, which it was difficult to trace. The Bank of Ireland, had, however, paid 280/. to these parties at one period, and 50l. at another, and had afforded every facility in their power; but, after all, this was no public ground for petitioning against the renewal of the charter. No private bank would have reimbursed them. He agreed with the hon. Member for Carlow, in blaming the Government for bringing forward this measure so late in the Session; but it was hardly fair of him to reflect on the circumstance of there only being fiftyfive Members to support the measure, omitting to state, that there were only seventeen to oppose it; fifty-eight was not a large number certainly, but it was much larger than seventeen. He thought at the moment the hon. Gentleman made that observation, that the lights above were rather more powerful than the lights below. (This observation was an allusion to the circumstance of the illuminating powers of the Bude light being tried at the time Mr. Gisborne was speaking.) Mr. Hume thought this question should not be disposed of by paltry details of this kind. The argument of the hon. Member for Carlow was a good one, inasmuch as it went to show, that a question of this importance was discussed in a House of only seventy-two Members. What was wanted was no exclusion or monopoly, but the same privileges for the people of Ireland, that the people of Scotland possessed. They wanted the same facilities in the negotiation of bills, and to remove the gross injustice that at present existed. Why, he would ask, was Ireland for five years to have inflicted upon her that which was admitted to be an injustice, and one that must be remedied at the expiration of that period? The hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets was altogether wrong in his facts with respect to the Bank of England, and he was equally so with respect to the Bank of Ireland. In Scotland, and every country where there was free and open banking, the variation of the currency was never equal to that which it, could, considering that this was nothing had been under the management of the Bank of England. The principle of banking was now understood by the majority of the banks, and they found to their cost, that if they issued more money than commerce required, runs instantly took place upon them, and they were obliged to find bullion. The Irish people so far from agreeing with the hon. Member, wished to have the system of Scotch banking established there. It appeared to him, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was acting most improperly in introducing this bill. What were his arguments formerly, when he was anxious to establish jointstock banks ? Why, then he was for adopting the system of Scotch banking, but now he was of a contrary opinion. What was the cause of that? Had the joint-stock banking system failed? Clearly not; but the right hon. Gentleman had changed his opinions. He thought the right bon. Gentleman was treating Ireland most shamefully in introducing the measure, and he should therefore support his hon. and learned Friend's motion, and every other motion that had for its object the prevention of the bill passing in its present odious shape. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that although he did not mean to undervalue the arguments of the hon. Gentlemen who were opposed to this bill, he could not re-discuss a matter which had been so fully more than a mere provisional arrangement. He had been charged with having brought down this measure without due deliberation, and it had been said that he wished to carry it by the weight of his official position. He denied that he had brought it forward without the consent and approbation of every member of Lord Melbourne's Government; and he brought it forward not only on their behalf, but in good faith, because it was thought that it would be for the interest of the country that it should be carried. It was, therefore, most unfair to suggest, that this bill was not the act of her Majesty's Government. It was stated that it would not be safe, as regarded the currency of either Ireland or England, to leave the matter as it now stood, and this it was that had induced the course which the Government had felt it their duty to take. The hon. Gentleman said, that the Bank of Ireland had not given to the other banking establishments of that country sufficient accommodation-that they kept too large an amount of their capital locked up in securities; but what was the evidence in reference to this point? Why, that in 1836, in defiance of sound banking principles, they had given too much accomodation. The arguments of the hon Gentleman, therefore, were wholly inconsistent with the evidence. Now, in the first place, he intended by this provisional arrangement to obtain considerable economy for the pub discussed on two previous occasions. In-lic, and, in the next, to take out of the deed, even if he were to do so, he could only repeat the arguments which he had already used. He must, however, say a few words with respect to the present measure, and he begged hon. Gentlemen to understand, that he supported this arrangement, not because it was the best possible arrangement which could be made-far from it; but what he wished to impress upon the House was, that if they did not accept the present measure, the probability was, that they would have a worse system of banking in Ireland than it provided. It had been said that this bill would operate injuriously to the joint-stock banks; but so far from this being the case, the only effect it could have, would be to relieve these banks from disabilities, and extend to them privileges which they did not now possess. This being the object of the measure, it might be asked why he did not carry that object further; but his reply was, because he did not think he could do so with safety. He had gone as far as he market nearly one million of Exchequer bills. Hon. Gentlemen seemed to think lightly of this, and they told him that the better way for him would be to borrow four millions to pay off the engagements with the Bank of Ireland. This, they said, would be an easy operation, and that nobody would be the worse for it; but all he could say was, that those who recommended such a course could have little real knowledge on the subject. He admitted there was some force in the objection that this measure had not been brought forward for discussion at an earlier period of the Session; but then these Gentlemen, who had raised this objection, had not adverted to the peculiar circumstances which had rendered the delay unavoidable. It should be recollected, that the business in the early part of the Session had been interrupted by an impending change in the Government, and that the arrear of the public business and the demand for other measures, such as the Irish Municipal Corporation Bill, had rendered it impossible for him to obtain, an early day for submitting this bill to the consideration of the House. Under such circumstances, he thought it was rather hard to be reproached for a delay which he could not help. It was said that the people of Ireland had no notice of this measure until the 14th of July; but had not petitions on the subject been presented from Newry, Wexford, New Ross, and other parts of Ireland in the first week in that month? Undoubtedly they were petitions against the renewal of the charter; but did not the fact of such petitions being presented, prove that the people of Ireland had notice of the course which he meant to pursue? He could, were it necessary, show the circumstances under which the meetings which had taken place on the subject had been got up. He could expose the absurd and stupid fallacies in dulged in at those meetings, and he could not only name the parties who had got those meetings up, but refute all that had been said at the meeting in Dublin. There was a joint-stock bank in Ireland called the Providence Bank-a bank so utterly absurd in its nature, that he was only astonished how in any country, men could be so deluded as to countenance it. This was a joint-stock bank founded by one individual, and having only another proprietor, namely, the party who engraved its notes. These two parties constituted a joint-stock bank, and issued their notes upon a capital of 500,000/. One of them had purchased bank stock to the amount of 10l., and the other to that of 30l, to enable them to express their opinions at the bank meetings; but surely these were apostles in whom the House would hesitate before they placed faith. He had been one of the originators of joint-stock banks in Ireland, and he felt proud of it, because he believed they had been productive of much good. Whilst, however, he was friendly to the principle, he was anxious to protect the public from the consequences which must follow, if the boon for which the opponents of this bill asked were conferred. He thought, that being the advocate of joint-stock banks, he was a better witness on this part of the subject, than the hon. Gentlemen who resisted the present motion. In 1836, when there was considerable distress, the Bank of Ireland had rendered important service to the Provincial, the National, the Commercial and Agricultural, and other joint-stock banks. Now, what would have become of these banks at that period, if the bank of Ireland had not, out of its own resources, lent them 270,000/.? And yet these were the interests which had raised the present cry against the Bank of Ireland. There had not, however, been a single petition from those banks; and for his own part he should like to see the proprietors of them meeting in London, where the whole matter could be fairly and properly, and face to face, discussed. With respect to the circle of limitation, he should now say nothing, as that was a point which could be more fitly discussed in the committee. He must, however, be allowed to observe upon a fallacy into which the hon. and learned Member for Dublin had been betrayed. He said, that Dublin and the other towns within the circle were in a state of decay or non-improvement, while the other parts of Ireland were prospering; and in support of this statement he referred to the Post-office revenue. What was the fact? Why, that between the years 1830 and 1836, there was a falling off in the revenue of the Post-office of Dublin of 26,000l., in consequence of anarrangement made at the Ordnance, and a further falling off to the amount of 10,000l., owing to the postages of the towns adjacent to Dublin, previously included in the Dublin account, being charged in a separate account. If the hon. and learned Gentleman had referred to other statistics, he would have found his statement completely contradicted. The customs revenue of Belfast in 1836 was 237,000l.; and in 1838, 315,000l. In Sligo there was a diminution between these periods, the amount in 1836 being 39,000l.: and in 1838, 32,000l. The amount in Cork, in 1836 was 185,000l.; and in 1838, 235,000l.; and during the same interval there had been an increase in the customs revenue of Dublin from 669,000l. to 846,000l. These facts went completely in refutation of the hon. and learned Member's assertion. There had been a diminution in the excise revenue in Cork, while in Drogheda it had increased, and this, too, although Drogheda was under the influence of the blighting system of bank monopoly. He thought it was for the interest of Ireland that they should go into committee on this bill. He had been charged with being wrong; but, although he could point out those who had inflicted wrongs upon his country, he would not reproach them, as it was not his wish to raise anything like a personal discussion. Ireland 282 He entreated hon. Gentlemen to discuss | Bank of Ireland; but a more unfounded this measure as a matter of political assertion could not be made. The fact science, the only point of view in which it ought to be discussed; and he hoped when he went back to Ireland, he would not find the walls placarded for the purpose of raising a barbarous, disgraceful, and degrading feeling against him. All he required was, that they should do by Ireland as they had done by England, and in making this demand he was justified.by the opinion of such men as Mr. Jones Loyd, Mr. Palmer, Mr. Norman, and Mr. Tooke. True, the gentlemen whom he had named were connected with the Bank of England, but was it likely that they would prostitute their talents, or be dishonest enough to deliver any opinion upon a matter of mere science in opposition to the dictates of common sense? These gentlemen had stated, that if the power of issuing notes in London was unrestricted, it would be impossible to survive a crisis, and, therefore, the great question was, whether or not it was proper to have in Ireland, as in England, a central bank of issue? He was, that the Bank of Ireland was the cause of the run for gold which occurred in 1836, and that it refused to discount the bills of the National Bank, even though they were indorsed by the Hibernian Bank. The extent of the accommodation which they afforded to the National Bank was 42,000l., although they had 400,000l. in gold in their coffers; and such being the facts, the right hon. Gentleman was not justified in the observations which he had made. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in explanation, said he had made no such statement as that which the hon. and learned Member for Dublin had attributed to him. He had not alluded to any particular bank; but what he had said was, that the Bank of Ireland had, in 1836 given important assistance to the various joint-stock banks of that country. From the means of knowledge which he possessed, he said he believed, that if that assistance had not been afforded, these must say, that he should consider the unre-banks must have failed. He stated, that stricted issuing of paper money as one of the greatest calamities which could befal a country, and if they found that they could not, with safety, approach that point, let them depart from it as little as they could. His belief was, that the present measure was the most secure that could be adopted, and although he wished to have a free banking system, he still thought, that it was necessary for the protection of the public, that the issues of paper money should be kept under proper control. Mr. O'Connell in explanation, said, that although he had referred to the Post-office revenue in a former debate, he had not done so that night. He had, however, shown an increase of prosperity outside the circle and a diminution inside. In some instances this increase amounted to twentyfive per cent. The utmost increase at Drogheda was twelve per cent., while in other places within the circle there was a diminution of three per cent., so that the argument of the right hon. Gentleman was of very little value. He was not there as an individual connected with the National Bank, but he thought the right hon. Gentleman had no right to use his official information for the purpose, as he had done, of tarnishing the credit of any banking establishment. He said, that the National Bank would have failed in 1836, but for the assistance it obtained from the the whole accommodation given by the Bank of Ireland to the joint-stock banks was 270,000l., and it now appeared, that of this sum the National Bank had received only 42,000/. This showed, that he had not referred to any individual establishment; and he could only add, that he should be extremely sorry to say anything which, coming from one in his official situation, could injure in the remotest way any private bank. His observations were altogether of a general character. Mr. Redington said, that they had gained something from the right hon. Gentleman, and that was, that this measure was to be discussed merely as a matter of science. He believed that the people of Ireland were not aware of the nature of the right hon. Gentleman's proposition; and although petitions had been presented on the subject, they were against the renewal of the bank charter, and could not have had reference to this measure. The fact of but two partners being found to belong to the bank alluded to by the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, showed that the people of Ireland were not inclined to enter wildly, or without deliberation, into those speculations. He was opposed to perpetuating a monopoly that had been anything but a service to Ireland. With respect to the assistance given to the joint-stock banks at the period of the crisis, it should be recol lected that a good deal of it came from London. The effect the Bank of Ireland had in producing that crisis should not be forgotten in alluding to the subject. It had been shown that the Bank of Ireland did not answer the purpose of a national bank. Mr. Ellis claimed the indulgence of the House whilst he offered a few observations with respect to that bill. He complained of the late period of the Session at which it had been brought forward, and he did not think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer's arguments sufficiently answered the objections, for they had seen that, upon several occasions, the Government had not made a House, when it was well known they might have done so if they pleased; and they should have done something towards bringing it forward at an earlier period of the Session. The right hon. Gentleman had stated, that the people of Ireland had received sufficient notice of the intention of the Government to bring forward this bill. They might, it is true, have had notice of that intention, but they had no information whatever as to the provisions and details of the bill. The right hon. Gentleman had stated, that the people of Ireland would be afforded the fullest opportunity of ascertaining what the provisions of the bill would be, and to judge of their probable effects. Then he (Mr. Ellis) thought they ought not to proceed with it, until they should have ascertained what the opinions were in respect to it-to ascertain what the result of the meetings upon that subject, which were to be held in Ireland, would be. The Bank of Ireland possessed vast and exclusive privileges, and they had sometimes exercised them in a harsh and severe manner. He knew an instance where a gentleman presented a bill, upon one of the first houses in Scotland at the Bank of Ireland, and it was refused, because the person presenting it had been known to have taken an active part against the Bank of Ireland monopoly. The bill was afterwards discounted. The hon Gentleman then went into a statement of the assets of the Bank of Ireland, and read several extracts of evidence, to show the difference between the practice of the Bank of England and that of the Bank of Ireland. The towns of Newry, Dundalk, and Drogheda, he continued, which were important towns, and were within the metropolitan circle, were subjected to peculiar injustice from that monopoly, for their commercial transactions were with England and Scot land; and, notwithstanding, they were obliged to transact their banking business in Dublin, with which they had no other concern. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated his opinion in favour of jointstock banks, and yet that bill went against his own principle. Sir W. Someville said, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not stand alone in the bill, for Lord Melbourne had stated to a deputation, that the Government intended to bring forward such a bill. With respect to those who opposed it in Ireland, he could assure the right hon. Gentleman, that all parties in the town, which he had the honour to represent, were opposed to her Majesty's Government in their views on that subject. The House divided on the original question : Ayes 57; Noes 19: Majority 38. List of the AYES. Loch, J. Lockhart, A. М. Lygon, hon. Gen. Rice, rt. hon. T. S. Rickford, W. Rolfe, Sir R. M. Rutherfurd, rt. hn. A. Shaw, rt. hon. F. Smith, R. V. Talfourd, Serjeant Thomson, rt. hn. C. P. Thompson, Ald. Townley, R. G. Hobhouse, rt.hn. Sir J. Troubridge, Sir E. Τ. Hodges, T. L. Lincoln, Earl Wood, C. Wood, G. W. TELLERS. Parker, J. Steuart, R. List of the NOES. Aglionby, H. A. Oswald, J. Redington, T. Ν. Salwey, Colonel Somerville, Sir W. M Vigors, N. A. Warburton, H. Williams, W. Yates, J. A. TELLERS. O'Connell, D. |