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is little noticed by the dictionaries. It is not in [We must request correspondents desiring information
Minshew, nor in an early edition of Johnson, and on family matters of only private interest, to affix their | not in Richardson. Lastly, Littré gives no very nimes and addresses to their queries, in order that the early instance in French, “son ogre de père," Volanswers may be addressed to them direct.]
taire, 1740, of the father of Frederic II. What is
the date of this plainly French word being used “ OGRE.”—The following passage is from the by English writers, and what the date of the use Spectator, November 11, 1876, p. 1876 :
of it in French in this exact form ? 0. W. T. "He hat reason to believe in the continued existence of the Aghors, or Ughor3-Anglice Ogres-who live “Roma VETUS AC RECENS utriusque ædificiis ad erunaked in the Kattiawar jungle, and are still cannibals, ditam cognitionem expositis. Auctore Alexandro Donato though devout Hindoos."
Societate Jesu. Tertio edita ac multis in locis ne dum This etymology is worth a few words, I think
aucta, et castigatior reddita ; verum etiam Figuris
Aeneis illustrata. Romae ex officina Philippi Rubej. Is it new, or are these Ughors the old Hunnish or
MDCLXV. Superiorum permissu.” Tartar Ugrians, who appear under varying titles
I am anxious to obtain information, through the -Cutiguri, Utiguri, of old writers ; Uighurs of Colonel Yule's Marco Polo; Hongrois or Oigours
pages of “N. & Q.," as to the reputation and value of Littré ?
of the above book. My copy is small 4to., bound, The traditional derivation was from
with gilt edges-a volume of some 500 pages. this name, and possibly some case might be made
W. D. B. out for it.
"Two hordes of · White' Huns, called respectively WALES CALLED “LETAMIA."-In vol. i. of Sir Catriguri and Utiguri, in all probability a fusion of T. D. Hardy's Descriptive Catalogue of Materials Finns and Ugrians (Igours or Ogors), to the latter of relating to the History of Great Britain and Irewhom and their terrible reputation in less barbarous
land, p. 85, in an account of a MS. Bodl. “De countries we owe the familiar 'ogres' of our children's story-books."-Curteis's The Roman Empire, p. 193.
Sancto Kenedo Confessore, Joannes Anglicus in But the authorities are against this, and give
Sanctilogio suo de Sanctis Walliæ et Scotia," reasons. Diez, Brachet, Littré, Wedgwood, all
the first lines are quoted thus :—“Est quædam make ogre=ocrum=orcum, i.e. Latin Orcus, hell,
terra, quæ antiquitus Letamia, nunc autem Minor personified, a god of the lower regions, hence ál Britannia nuncupatur.” devil, a monster. The reason is plain ; the forms
When and by whom was Wales called “Lein the kindred Romance languages will not allow
tamia," and what does the name mean?
I. S. LEADAM. the traditional derivation for any form except the one word ogre of French and English, and a modern
Prince Eugene's PRAYER.-In an old life of Spanish form ogro, while orcus accounts for all | Prince Eugene I have seen a long prayer, said to foros alike. There are one or two points on which
have been a favourite with him, beginning thus, a little more information is wanted. First, is
“O my God, I believe in thee, do thou strengthen there any ground for a connexion of the word with
my faith”; and under the title of “Prince the l'grians or Oigours ? and if so, where is such | Eugene's Prayer" I have met with the same coman etymology first suggested ? Did such an ideal nosition in a
position in a modern English book of devotion. etymology give the word its modern shape ? Now, a few years back I heard this prayer recited Next, Littré quotes “Anglo-Sax. orc, démon in- ' in a Roman Catholic church, and it is to be seen, fernal,” from orcus, and it is in Bosworth - | with certain differences, in the Garden of the Soul “ 1. hell ; 2. a goblin.” Both correctly, no doubt. (32mo, ed., p. 99), in this instance entitled “ An But is there not a mistake or confusion when
Universal Prayer.” Did Prince Eugene compose Wedgwood quotes under ogre, from Drayton (from
the prayer, and has the Roman Catholic Church Nares)
adopted it ? or did the Prince take it from some “ Her marble-minded breast impregnable, rejects
existing book for his own purposes ? In either The ugly orks that for their lord the ocean woos" ?
case, has the prayer any further literary history? This is like
E. E. X. “The baunt of seals and orcs and seamews' clang."
Milton, Par. Lost, xi. 835. NAPOLEON 1.-Is there any full and reliable Orez (say the notes) mentioned by Ariosto, Dray- account, contemporary or other, of the reasons that ton, and Sylvester. Is not the fact that, the led the first Napoleon to adopt the bees of Chilearlier word orc being lost (not in Strattmann), deric as the symbols of his power? Was it merely then in the sixteenth century a new orc from an arbitrary whim of the Emperor, or was it disItalian, a revival of Lat. orca, comes in ? This cussed at length with his ministers? Was it anyis not orcus at all, nor belonging to ogre, but where referred to in print at the time? Was the is orci, Greek opvé, a whale, as in Minshew orch, choice announced in a decree? Were any reasons ork, " whirlepoole, a monstrous fish.” Orc seems given but the simple fact of the discovery of the not to have become common in English ; and ogre bees in the tomb of Childeric ? Was this emblem
ever used, except on the imperial robes and the extravaganza, Hurlothrumbo (in which he played Lord caparisons of the horses ?
H. P. A.
Flame), was acted during thirty successive nights. The
I public got tired of piece and author. See, for full par“HUDIBRAS.”—I have an edition 12mo,, printed
ticulars, Ormerod's Cheshire; Biog. Dramat. ; Genest's
History of the Drama, dc.; and Thespian Dict. The time for D. Brown and others, 1720, in one vol., en
of Johnson's death is not known, but before his decease titled :
he nearly killed a nervous lady by fright at his polite “Hudibras, in Three Parts, &c. With Additions. To assurance that he should consider himself bound to pay which is added Annotations, &c. Adorned with Cuts.” | her his first visit as a ghost.] It has a fine portrait. The “cuts,” some of which
HERALDIC.-I desire to learn whose arms are are on folding plates, are rude but not without character or humour. They seem clearly to have
the following ; they are stamped on a pair of cast influenced Hogarth. I should be glad of any in
iron fire-dogs, which were many years ago purchased formation about this edition, which is not noted in
out of an ancient farmhouse situated within four
miles of Droitwich. Below the shields is apLowndes.
Moy THOMAS. Garden House, Clement's Inn.
parently the date 1612; but as the dogs have been
much injured by polishings, it might be 1622 or “THE CRITICAL HISTORY OF ENGLAND, Ecclesiastical 1632. The shield is party per pale, and the dexter and Civil, wherein the Errors of the Monkish Writers half is again divided, “per pale," into two coats, and others before the Reformation are Expos'd and
i.e., a chevron between three mullets, and on a Corrected......and particular Notice is taken of The History of the Grand Rebellion and Mr. Echard's History of
bend two owls. There are, of course, no means of England." Second edition, London, two vols. 8vo., 1726. ascertaining the tinctures. The sinister of the Who was the author of the above? CORNUB.
shield is, A chevron between three garbs. The
Finches of Rushock once owned the farm. PerON THE USE OF THE WORDS “SUPERIOR” haps Mr. GRAZEBROOK or Mr. Woodward will AND “INFERIOR."--Not knowing of any dic- enlighten me.
C. G. H. tionary or grammar of sufficient authority, I appeal to the readers of “N. & Q.” for information
THE FAMILY OF PILGRIM.-Can any of your as to the correct use of the words superior and readers inform me what family of Pilgrim went to inferior. Must they always be regarded as com
the West Indies ? In Barbados, Government paratives, or can they be used as simple positive
House is called Pilgrim, and I find a “ Thos. Piladjectives ? Is it correct to say, for example,
grim” owned land in that island in 1638, and a “ The goods were of inferior quality," or, more
* Thos. Pilgrim” lived there in 1680. Near St. simply, “ were inferior"? Can we say '“very
Lucia was an island called Pilgrim, and also a bay, inferior," or must we always put it, “very much
G. P. T. inferior”? It certainly would sound very odd to say “more inferior," but one hears occasionally
GILLIAN FAMILY.– What are the arms borne “ most inferior."
C. 0. B.
" by this family? Is it of Welsh or of Norman extraction ?
J. P. S. CURIOUS INSCRIPTION ON A TOMB.-— The following is a copy of an inscription on a tomb which
LANCASHIRE CLERGYMEN.-Information is restands alone in a larch plantation four miles from
quested about the following clergymen, who at the Macclesfield, and about one-third of a mile from
dates named held cures in Lancashire :-Thomas Gawsworth Church, in Cheshire :
| Hunter, 1701 ; John Coulton, 1751 ; George Hol
den, 1766 ; Williain Bateson, 1781. “Stay, thou whom chance directs or ease persuades To seek the quiet of these sylvan shades;
H. FISHWICK, F.S.A. Here undisturbed and hid from vulgar eyes
Carr Hill, Rochdale.
“Facies.”—I shall be obliged by reference to And all the arts of opera were his own.
passages in any of the classics in which the word In comedy well skilled, he drew Lord Flame,
facies is used to describe, not the features, face, Acted the part, and gained himself the name;
or portrait, but the person, figure, or a statue of Averse to strife, how oft he'd gravely say These peaceful groves should shade his breathless clay,
any hero, emperor, or divinity; and similar reThat when he rose again, laid here alone,
ferences to passages in mediæval writers in which No friend and he should quarrel for a bone ;
this same word facies is used to describe a statue Thinking that, were some old lame gossip nigh, of the Virgin or an image of any saint. THETA.
She possibly might take bis leg or thigh.' When did Johnson live and die, and where did | Old Song Book.-I have an old song book he carry on his various professions ?
| which lacks the title-page, and all, if anything,
W. T. Hyatt. before “ A Table of ye Songs." It contains one Enfield, N.
hundred songs; the first is "A Miser's Song," the Samuel Johnson was a half-mad Cheshire dancing last is “The Jilt." Each song occupies a page, master of the first half of the last century. In 1729 his therefore there are one hundred pages in the book,
which also corresponds with “ the Table.” The
Replies. words are set to music, with generally music in addition for the flute or other instrument. The
A SOCIETY FOR THE PUBLICATION OF book is printed from music plates, not type, and
CAURCH REGISTERS. measures seven inches by five inches, being a sort
(5th S. vi. 484.) of small quarto, or rather square octavo. I would
ARGENT suggests that genealogical clergymen wish much to know the title of my book, so that I should transcribe their own registers ; that the may refer to the British Museum Catalogue, and generous liberal clergy should place their registers consult their copy if they have one. Can any at the disposal of the society; and that the reader help me?
GETE. | brothers, sisters, and Sons of clergymen, and THOMSON'S “HYMN TO THE CREATOR” IN
sisters married to clergymen, should join in the STANZAS.- Dr. George Mac Donald, in England's
good work of copying them. Antiphon, says :
I am afraid he would find few who would be
| willing to undertake so dull a work. As it is, "In the poems of James Thomson we find two hymns to the God of Creation-one in blank verse, the other in
many of the clergy, at all events in the diocese stanzas....... The one in blank verse, which is an epilogue
where I reside, cannot be induced to make copies to his great poem, The Seasons, I prefer.”
of their registers to be presented annually at the He then proceeds to give the well-known lines. / visitation. It would be better to form a society beginning :
to carry into effect what the first Lord Romilly, “These, as they change, Almighty Father, these
when Master of the Rolls, was anxious to accomAre but the varied God," &c.
plish,- to trarsfer all public and ecclesiastical I have looked through several editions of Thom
documents from their present scattered, and often son's works, but have not succeeded in finding any
neglected, damp, and dusty repositories, to the “Hymn to the Creator” in “ stanzas." What
Record Office. Here they would be preserved and poem does Dr. Mac Donald refer to ?
indexed, and could be inspected at any time. To H. BOWER. the proposition of Lord Ronilly objections were
made by bishops' secretaries and the parochial "A HELP TO Exglish HISTORY.”—Is there a clergy; they were unwilling to part with the late edition of the above work, by P. Heylyn, documents and to lose their fees. D.D., issued in 1641 and again in 1709? Is there But if the transfer of documents was confined to any recent work which corresponds to it--I mean those which are prior to the beginning of this one that will show the family names of, for instance, century, or even prior to the beginning of the last all who have been Dukes of Devonshire, &c. ? century, there would be little or no loss to those
C. W. TUTTLE. who now have the custody of them, as few would Boston, U.S.
require certificates of registers and of other deeds "FLANDERKIN.”—Is this a correct word for
| before this century, much less before the last. " Flemish "12" Dutch and Flanderkin beauty.”
'| The Will Office goes on this supposition, and
allows, without payment, the examination of wills Millers' Sons.-Rembrandt was the son of a
prior to 1700 by obtaining a judge's order, which miller; Mortimer was the son of a miller ; Con
is freely given to all whose object is history, stable was the son of a miller. Can this list be
genealogy, or archæology; and a comfortable room augmented ?
C. A. WARD. Mayfair.
is provided, and a very intelligent and courteous
superintendent, well versed in ancient lore, is geneThe Bust OF BYRON BY THORWALDSEN.-Some rally present, and ready to give every information. recent letters in the Times have called attention. It would be much more convenient to literary to the above bust in the Ambrosian Library, men if all ancient documents were brought to one Milan. Permit me to enclose a copy of the inscrip- central place,-such, for instance, as London, the tion on that bust, and to ask if some one will be so resort of men from all parts of the country,--than good as to explain the allusions it contains : that they should be scattered in a great number of Byron Effigies
different localities, exposed to loss and to decay. Quam
A few years ago I had a letter from a farmer's Thorwaldsen inventor
daughter, stating that her father was dead and she Ronchettio sutori sui temporis primo Clarioribus viris ac proceribus jucundo
wished to dispose of his books, some of which Hujus F. Antonius
were very old. On going to see them, I found a Sonantis Eburis
parish register of 1560 to 1660, which, if I had Magister Bibliothecæ
not obtained it, would have shared the fate of Donavit.
many others, and been sold for tailors' and shoeIs anything known of Ronchetti and Antonio ? makers' measures. There is clearly something wrong in the Latin, but If a survey were made of the old muniment Tbelieve the copy is correct. JAYBEEDEE. I rooms of bishops, colleges, corporations, &c., in
many of them there would be found most interest- parish registers, generally, worth printing in toto ? ing and valuable documents, uncared for and I trow not. Few persons have used parish registers mouldering away, Take, for instance, the muni- more than I have done, or value them more highly ; ment room of the diocese of Lincoln : there nevertheless, I can safely say that in many parish all the old ecclesiastical documents, to use the registers there is not one entry in a hundred that words of an archæologist who lately visited one person in a hundred thousand, or one geneathem, are in a state of hopeless confusion ; logist in a hundred, would care an iota about. among them are the pre-Reformation records re- If ARGENT be really in earnest, let him endeavour lating to Oxfordshire, which, unfortunately, were to form a society for printing the registers of the left behind when Henry VIII. took that county parishes in one district, diocese, or county first, from the diocese of Lincoln and appointed over it say those in the City of London, than which none a separate bishop. Efforts have been made from are of greater general interest, and for this I time to time to reclaim them, but without effect. authorize him to enter my name as a subscriber. The plea has always been that they are so mixed If his scheme be successful so far, it may be easily up with the records of Lincoln and other counties extended. that it would take too long a time to separate That some steps should be taken for the prethem. But if the Record Office was allowed to servation of, and ready access to, the existing MS. clear the cupboards and the boxes, and take the registers, is a matter of urgent importance. I am contents to London, they would very soon be thankful to say that, as a body, the clergy are far separated and arranged.
more alive to the value of these records than they If Lord Romilly's plan is ever permitted to be were a century, or even half a century, ago ; but. I carried out, a vast deal of information as to must add, from my own experience, that there is families, places, and ancient customs would be not one clergyman in fifty who can read the older brought to light, and a strong argument afforded registers —“the old black-letter writing," as they against those who pretend that church property is call it. In the inaugural address which I had the national property, by showing that those who pos- honour to deliver to the Historical Section of the sessed large territories voluntarily granted in Congress of the Royal Archäological Institute, at perpetuity lands and tithes to the ministers of Exeter, in 1873 (Archeological Journal, vol. xxx. religion who ministered in holy things to the p. 420), I ventured to suggest as, in my opinion, people of their estates. J. W. LODOWICK. the most feasible plan, that the originals of all the
| parish registers prior to the Act of 1812 should I fear that ARGENT is too sanguine in his ex- be placed in the custody of the Master of the pectation of its being practicable to form a society Rolls, as proposed by a Bill brought into Parfor the purpose mentioned. His scheme is of far liament in the previous year, and that every parish greater magnitude than the basis of the Harleian should be supplied by Government with certified Society, if he proposes to extend the publication to copies of its own registers, which should have all all parish registers ; and if he does not intend so the authority of the originals, and be treated in to extend it, how will he limit it? Has he con- | the same manner. The clergy and parishioners templated the practical difficulties? I do not would then be able to read their registers, and mean the objections of clergymen, for I believe literary men and genealogists would have an opporthey would soon learn that it would be to their tunity of referring to the originals in a central advantage to make public the contents of their place of deposit, where they would be safely registers, that persons might know to whom to preserved.
John MACLEAN. apply for certificates. But has he considered the Bicknor Court, Coleford, Glouc. extent of his project in a practical manner? Say there are in England some 12,000 parishes. We ARGENT's suggestion, if it could be carried out, may, I think, estimate that, on an average, the is one that would delight the heart of every anticegisters of each parish, if printed, as he proposes, quary. But can it be? I do not know the exact in toto, would fill an octavo volume of the ordinary number of parishes in England and Wales, but size. At the rate of issue he suggests we can see the Encyc. Brit. (8th ed., 1855) gives the number at a glance the period which would be required to of benefices as 11,782. The church registers would complete the work, and can form some conception of course be those of births, marriages, and deaths, of the shelf room which would be required to stow and if a volume were issued every year including away the “ Registers Library” when finished. the three, and taking in four or five parishes, The obvious reply will, of course, be, "It cannot many centuries must pass before the work would be accomplished at once.” But how will he begin? | be finished. No; a single society could not Will he take a parish in Kent, then one in York- accomplish the task. But it might be done if the shire, and next one in Cornwall, as transcripts work were taken up by Government, and the may be obtainable, or will he take a district or books issued as parts of the Public Records. If county? Again, another question arises. Are this is not possible, could not our local archæolo
gical societies do it for their various counties ? it, and from passages referring to it in Haydon's They would be obliged to increase their sub- Journals. MR. PIEsse says that Haydon's atelier scriptions, and appoint special committees, and so was “in a house in Burford Place, on the left-hand on, but still it does seem to be within the bounds side out of Edgware Road,” implying that Haydon of possibility for the labour to be done by them. lived there in 1815, and that my expression, " on
Some years ago clergymen and others were his way home from Edgware Road to Great Marlinvited to copy the inscriptions in churchyards, borough Street," should, he thinks, be inverted. and forward them to some society in London. There is here a double blunder. " Burford Place” Has this been done ? and if so, what society pre- should be Burwood Place; and my expression serves the books ? I suppose the British Museum needs no inversion at all, for in 1815 Haydon was Library would preserve such collections amongst living in Great Marlborough Street, and says that its MSS. Allow me to offer a suggestion. It is he was on his way thither from his friend John this. Let a book be kept at the lodge of all our Scott's in Edgware Road when he met the Foreign cemeteries, into which it shall be the duty of the Office messenger in Portman Square with the first attendant to copy the inscription on every stone news of Wellington's great victory. (I call it that is erected. These books, after a time, might Wellington's in despite of the late Col. C. C. be sent to London, to some library where they Chesney and all the host of Prusso-philists or would be open to the public. H. BOWER. -phobists who “go in" for Blucher, Ziethen and
| Co. This by the way.) Haydon, in fact, did not May I be allowed to suggest that the “church | begin his occupation of the house (afterwards a books” of Nonconformist chapels might advisedly
house in Burwood Place) in which he died until be included among the objects of ARGENT's pro- | 1824. I cannot make out to whom MR. PIESSE'S posed society? I remember one instance in which, I description. “ very eccentric and violent in temper. while registers were searched in vain, a “ church
poor in pocket, handsome in person, rather tall book” supplied important items.
and stout, always wearing large round-eyed specSuch a society would be a boon to genealogists
tacles," is intended to apply-whether to the Duke -simply invaluable. How many pedigrees could
of Newcastle or to Haydon. The latter was cerbe set right, missing links supplied, &c., if the tainly " eccentric." as certainly 5 violent in temsearcher did but know what register to consult !
I per” and “poor in pocket ”; but, though he may HERMENTRUDE.
have been “handsome," was undeniably “stout," In common, probably, with many of your readers, and always wore “ large round-eyed spectacles,” he I cordially welcome, and hope to hear more of, cannot be said to have been “rather tall,” for he ARGENT's well-weighed suggestion. “If it were was undoubtedly below the middle height; so much done when 'tis done, then 'twere well 'twere done so, indeed, as to be known to some of his " friends quickly.” To those who may not have had occa- in Rathbone Place" as "little Haydon." All this, sion to examine any number of registers, might Ihowever, is beside the mark. My query was venture to commend a perusal of chap. iii. in the intended not to draw out descriptions of Haydon's kate John Southernden Burn's History of Parish personal appearance and habits, but solely to Registers (1862), being that on their present “State obtain the means of clearing up the doubt in which of Preservation”?
H. W. I find myself as to the exact nature of Haydon's Sew Univ. Club.
blunder in his very circumstantial account of “The
First News of the Victory of Waterloo." He says Should a society be established for this purpose, I that it was in Portman Square, on his way from I shall be very willing to follow a leader with the Edgware Road to Great Marlborough Street, that registers of my parish. Lead I could not, as my
| he met the Foreign Office messenger, and sent him cops only goes as far as 1782, and I should require by mistake into à house as being Lord Harrowby's some little time to bring it down to the suggested
which was, in reality, Mrs. Boehm’s. He adds, date, 1837.
correctly, that Lord Harrowby's house was in Clent, Worcestershire.
Grosvenor, and not in Portman Square. But then,
unfortunately, Mrs. Boehm's house was not in HAYDON's “AUTOBIOGRAPHY” (5th S. vi. 344, Portman Square, but in St. James's Square. 516.)-I thank MR. PIESSE for his kind, but un- Now, was it in this latter square that Haydon executed, intention of telling me “a little.” Like met the messenger, really sending him into Mrs. Haydon in his account of the first news of the Boehm's after all ; or did he, meeting him in Portbattle of Waterloo, he has written from memory, man Square, send him into some house (not of and blundered. My statement that the Autobio- course Mrs. Boehm's) where, as he says, there was graphy was composed within certain limits of date “ actually a rout” ? Such an incident as the sudden (not " about twenty-eight years after Waterloo ") irruption of a Foreign Office messenger, with the was no " surmise," as MR. PIESSE calls it, but an first news of so great a victory as that which freed inference from certain notices of date occurring in Europe from the curse of Napoleon's ambition,