this Rule, because I think a specific day upon permanent officers of public Departments and Ministers ? What was going to happen if they did not give the watchdog an opportunity to bark? re The House of Commons as a whole had never been very fond of economy. Why was it that no Votes could be proposed by an individual Member, and that every Vote had to be propo ed upon the responsibility of the administration of the day? It was because, if each individual Member was permitted to propose a Vote, there would be Votes proposed all the time, there would be log-rolling, and economy would become absolutely impossible. But there used to be a small body of economists who did good work. [Cries of " Divide, divide !"] The worst thing in this Rule was that they were stereotyping and determining a Rule for putting an end to the function of that economical section of the House in ventilating the details of expenditure, and he maintained that this was not the *(7.12.) MR. BLAKE said he believed time when such action should be taken. the proposed crystallisation of the The function of the economical section system which had been adopted during of the House would be put an end to the last few years was the absolute by the carrying of this Rule. Their abrogation and abolition of a most important function of the House of Commons. He thought that at a time like this those who had the public interest at heart should see that the old system which had fallen into desuetude should be revived. The most important duty of the House of Commons was in reference to the granting of money for Supply, but now the only right which was to remain was simply that of demanding the redress of grievances in Committee of Supply, and there would not be even power to do that efficiently. He agreed with the right hon. Gentle man the Member for East Wolverhampton that it was important to maintain the effective right of the House to discuss details of expenditure as a means of checking the extravagance of public Offices and Ministers. It was important to maintain the effective right of the House of Commons to discuss details. In the old days they had a day for effective Supply when details might be discussed and another day for non-effective Supply when grievances might be brought up, but they had only the latter day now. What was going to happen when they finally removed the check which existed Sir Henry Fowler. utility was not to be measured by the few cases in which estimates were duced on motion. The dread of criticism used to prevent extravagant estimates; but now that criticism was to be permanently discarded the check would disappear. This, above all others, was not the time at which to do this thing. It was true that in one sense expenditure depended upon policy, and if they had a great system of imperial expansion they would have expenditure upon a large scale. The more expansive the policy the greater would be the demand upon the Treasury, and the more important, therefore, that the details should be scrutinised; for extravagance in details would render still more burdensome the execution of large Imperial schemes. They could not waste at bunghole and spigot both. But by the system now proposed they rendered it impossible for the details of that expenditure to be scrutinised. wished in a word to see revived the old system of voting public money. He The House at the present moment did not vote public money in any intelligent sense. They had a debate upon the reduction of a Minister's salary, but none at all in reference to the money which had been spent; and this a suggestion from the right hon. Member system was in operation at a time when for East Wolverhampton that there should the public expenditure was doubling, be a scheme for further sub-division and when it stood at a figure which of business under a time-table. By ten years ago would have been thought adopting this suggestion, the Governquite impossible and incredible. He ment would make the business of the would not enter further into this House as confusing as the pages of subject at the present time. In his Bradshaw." His opinion was that view he could not overstate his they ought to preserve what measure opinion of the mischief which was done of elasticity remained. It was the by the system of automatic closure. function of the Leader of the House, He believed that the business of the as occasion arose, to take certain House of Commons would never be responsibilities which devolved upon well done under a system of extensive him. He had obtained from the House closure. The ordinary business methods the limitation of twenty-three days, but on the part of those who conducted the his responsibility to the House and to the business were the only methods by country could not be carried out by which they could succeed, and automatic allotting four days to one great subject, closure and the use of closure in other and five days to another, and so on, for ways might be an instrument by which the allocation of time ought to be made a Minister for a time might drive, but having regard to the particular circumit was an instrument by which he stances of the case. Opposed as he was never could lead the House of Commons. to any other method of conducting the An instrument like this in the hands business than that which he had tried to of Ministers made them neglectful of describe, he argued that even when they those considerations which conduced to had established a system of automatic the good conduct of business. He had closure there must be some system as seen Ministers who led the House and elastic as possible. He spoke with special Ministers who drove it. There was feeling upon this subject, because the one Minister who was well known to country he represented was the very be averse to the using of the closure, poor partner of a very rich neighbour. and when he brought forward his Ireland regarded with the greatest alarm measures this fact was recognised on those enormous increases in the expendiall sides of the House, and it conduced ture which it had to share in a degree to the progress of business. The right far beyond its resources. In conclusion hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the he regretted that the House of Commons Treasury, with all his charms of leader- should be asked that night to abandon ship and his desire to lead the House for ever its prerogative of scrutinising in the sense and spirit he had indicated, the national expenditure with a view of had for years wanted to throw the checking extravagance in the administraconduct of the business in Supply upon tion of the country. his opponents. The right hon. Gentle man knew very well that twenty-three days would end the matter as far as he was concerned. He fully recognised that at the end of that time he would get all his money, and he practically said to the Opposition, "I have no interest in this matter, and you can arrange it amongst yourselves." But the right hon. Gentleman was not only responsible to the whole House, including his own followers as well as the Opposition in this regard, but he had a much higher responsibility in regard to the country at large. It was clear that even the present Rule was bad, since the House had heard 1 (7.30.) MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Three hon. Gentlemen have spoken on this Rule as a whole, and, while they all agree that the time allocated to Supply is not too small, they are all dissatisfied with the manner in which that time is allocated to the different Votes, and they all differ as to the way in which the present allocation should be reformed. The right hon. Member for East Wolverhampton asks me to draw up a time-table for Supply; but he forgets that though the Leader of the House has power to say when the discussion of a subject should begin, he has no power to say when it should end. I would undertake, if I were has not been said. I am quite sure I given that power, to make an excellent have no argument to advance upon it allocation of the time given to Supply, that I have not already advanced, and and to take care that the twenty-three I doubt whether the fertility of my days were used to the best of my judgment hon. friend behind me could find to the public advantage. But when it is anything new to say upon it. only given to the Leader of the House to With all the tact and temper with say when a discussion shall start, and not which Providence has endowed me, I when it shall close, it is obvious that the make this appeal-which I am told is all blame cannot be put upon him if the that is necessary that this debate should time for Supply is not properly distributed. now be brought to a close, and that we Then it is said that this closure by should go on to the other business— Departments is bad and never ought to those other Rules which in the interests be put in force, but that by the exercise of the House I think ought to be passed of tact and temper everything desired without delay, in order that our new could be done; that when the Leader of scheme of business shall come into the House considers that the discussion operation in the near future. It will be has gone on quite long enough an appeal something in the nature of a Parliato the House, properly made, would mentary scandal if we cannot in the always bring it to a close. I propose next few days finish this block of Rules immediately to put that theory to a test. on which we are engaged. I do earnestly appeal to the House in this matter. In the debates on this Rule the same issues have been raised again and again. I do not believe there is anything to be said on this Rule which 138. Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Blundell, Colonel Henry Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John AYES. (7.33.) Question put. The House divided:-Ayes, 222; Noes, (Division List No. 140.) Clare, Octavius Leigh Galloway, William Johnson Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. Gardner, Ernest Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside Houston, Robert Paterson Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. Kimber, Henry King, Sir Henry Seymour Knowles, Lees Laurie, Lieut.-General Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Lawson, John Grant Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. Llewellyn, Evan Henry Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol,S) Lonsdale, John Brownlee Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Macartney, Rt HnW.G. Ellison Macdona, John Cumming Maconochie. A. W. M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) M Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.) Majendie, James A. H. Malcolm, Ian Manners, Lord Cecil Maxwell, W.J. H. (Dumfriessh. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Milvain, Thomas Mitchell, William Molesworth, Sir Lewis Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Moon, Edward Robert Pacy More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Morgan, DavidJ.(Walth'mstow Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh. Morrell, George Herbert Morrison, James Archibald Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Buxton, Sydney Charles Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Cremer, William Randal Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Donelan, Captain A. Doogan, P. C. Dunn, Sir William VOL. CVII. Mount, William Arthur Plummer, Walter R. Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Spear, John Ward NOES. Elibank, Master of Flavin, Michael Joseph Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Mooney, John J. Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John M'Kenna, Reginald Goddard, Daniel Ford Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Leng, Sir John' [FOURTH SERIES. D Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) The new Standing Order (Business in Supply), as finally adopted, is as follows: That, as soon as the Committee of Supply has been appointed and Estimates have been presented, the business of Supply shall, until disposed of, be the first Order of the day on Thursday, unless the House otherwise order on the Motion of a Minister of the Crown, moved at the commencement of public business, to be decided without Amendment or debate. Not more than twenty days, being days before the 5th of August, shall be allotted for the consideration of the annual Estimates for the Army, Navy, and Civil Services, including Votes on Account. The days allotted shall not include any day on which the Question has to be put that the Speaker do leave the Chair, or any day on which the business of Supply does not stand as first Order. Provided that the days occupied by the con sideration of Estimates supplementary to those of a previous session or of any Vote of Credit, or of Votes for supplementary or additional Estimates presented by the Government for war expenditure, or for any new service not included in the ordinary Estimates for the year, shall not be included in the computation of the twenty days aforesaid. Provided also that on Motion made after notice, to be decided without Amendment or debate, additional time, not exceeding three days, may be allotted for the purposes aforesaid, either before or after the 5th of August. On a day so allotted, no business other than business of Supply shall be taken before midnight, and no business in Committee or proceedings on Report of Supply shall be taken after midnight, whether a general, Order for the suspension of the Twelve o'clock Rule is in force or not, unless the House otherwise order on the Motion of a Minister of the Crown, moved at the commencement of public business, to be decided without Amendment or debate. Trevelyan, Charles Philips TELLERS FOR THE NOES-Mr. John Ellis and Mr.. Lough. Of the days so allotted, not more than one day in Committee shall be allotted to any Vote on Account, and not more than one At sitting to the Report of that Vote. midnight on the close of the day on which the Committee on that Vote is taken, and at the close of the sitting on which the Report of that Vote is taken, the Chairman of Committees or the Speaker, as the case may be, shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Vote or the Report. At Ten of the clock on the last day but one of the days so allotted the Chairman shall forthwith put the Question necessary to dispose of the Vote then under consideration, and shall then forthwith put the Question with respect to each class of the Civil Service Estimates that the total amount of the Votes: outstanding in that class be granted for the services defined in the class, and shall in like manner put severally the Questions that the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in the Estimates for the Navy, the Army, and the Revenue Departments be granted for the services defined in those Estimates. At Ten of the clock on the last, not being earlier than the twentieth of the allotted days, the Speaker shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Report of the Resolution then under consideration, and shall then forthwith put, with respect to each class of the Civil Service Estimates, the Question, That the House doth agree with the Committee in all the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of that class, and shall then put a like Question with respect to all the Resolutions outstanding in the Estimates of the Navy, the Army, the Revenue Departments, and other outstanding Resolutions severally. On the days appointed for concluding the business of Supply, the consideration of that business shall not be anticipated by a Motion of adjournment, and no dilatory Motion shall be moved on proceedings for that business, and the business shall not be interrupted under any Standing Order. |