have reports made to it, there is a possibility of some kind of friction between a Committee so constituted and the local authority itself. (7.6.) MR. ALFRED HUTTON (Yorkshire, W.R., Morley): The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down began his speech with a very well-timed compliment to the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich, whose speech greatly interested the Subject to some details of that kind, I feel that this Bill in its main House. lines is a great advance on anything we have yet had. It allows immense freedom to those local authorities-a freedom which many speakers on the other side of the House have been led to believe will not always be well used and which will sometimes be abused. The hon. Baronet was afraid that the improvement of secondary education would be postponed, and in that respect I should like to stiffen the Bill and make it compulsory both for secondary and elementary education. If you lay that duty on the local authorities, I believe they will vigorously respond to it. Give them the order, and, though they may in some cases grumble, they will, obey. You may rely fully and confidently on the growing interest and enthusiasm in education which are shown in the country. I hear sometimes in this House that little interest and enthusiasm are shown for education. I can only say that in the district which sent me to Parliament a portion of Manchester, and a portion of the county of Manchester-I find no coldness or want of enthusiasm whatever. I find rather that, next to the war, there is no subject and it is admitted that the 1 details of the matter are somewhat dry there is no subject which arouses the enthusiasm even of a popular audience more than the education question, and the opportunities given to young men and women to make the best of whatever ability has been bestowed upon them. Knowing that feeling, and with the experience I have gained in Lancashire of the enthusiasm for education, I my self am prepared to trust those new local authorities. They have got the enthusiasm, and where they have not got the experience they can, by this system of co-option, which has been condemned in some quarters, but which I believe as a starting point is most admirable, obtain the assistance of experts, and I believe they will set our primary and secondary education, together with all our education, on a far higher, more satisfactory, and suitable position than we have ever had it before. But I was astonished to find in that speech a reference which the noble Lord made to the Nonconformists.⚫ According to that statement, I am one of the allies of the Church of England, but a mistaken and misguided one. I do not think there can be so very much hope of unity of action if one of the allies calls the other one "mistaken and misguided " at the beginning. But the fact of the matter is that the noble Lord based his peroration, eloquent as it was, on what seemed to me, and to many who think like me, a mistaken idea of the duty and the attitude which Parliament must have in relation to religious denominations. I would point out to the noble Lord that Churchmen and Nonconformists must work together if they are to achieve much in regard to the evils of the world; but the noble Lord must climb down a little bit from the attitude he and his friends always take up with respect to the relation between this House and the Church, and you cannot hope for any effective alliance so long as the basis of their action is a close connection with the State and assistance from the Exchequer. He may believe that it is of the utmost importance to the welfare of this country that denominational teaching shall continue in order to keep hold of the rising generation; but there are others, just as anxious as he is to have the continued growth of religious teaching, who believe that that connection is just the one barrier to success, and that the State alliance with the Church is one of the things which prevents that vitality and force which religion ought to have from one end of the country to the other, and I believe it would be very much more efficacious and powerful if left an entirely voluntary agency, rather than that it should receive public money from the Exchequer for its maintenance. whole of his speech depended upon his ability to secure the assistance of the Government in maintaining this position. denominational teaching he may desire in I would agree with him in giving all the his own schools, but I think that provision for that can be devised perfectly well without its being provided at the expense The of the public, and by means of the State. If the proposition which was made as to the control of the schools which was made by the hon. Baronet the Member for the Berwick Division were accepted by the noble Lord and his friends, it would only mean that he would secure secondary education. Surely he does not think that religious education would be given in that way. I know that he and his friends would say that there must be a religious atmosphere in the school, and that the teaching even of secular subjects must be under the religious control of the Church. There I join issue with him. That would be utterly, impossible to consent to. But we have learned from him what is the meaning of the absolute control." It is an entire misnomer. 66 of the various diocesan Committees at Truro the other day, and the following resolution was passed time should be lost in preparing to meet the "That this meeting is of opinion that no new conditions which will arise if the Bill becomes law, both with regard to the various rity and the choice of fit persons to represent bodies intending to apply to the local authothem." country. If all the most important experts in the world were represented on the educational authority, and if the best You can never hope to have under this Bill the public opinion which the hon. Member for Haddington desires to see. How are you going to rouse public opinion in regard to this authority when shut out public opinion? How is it posyou have taken care under the scheme to sible to rouse, in regard to these new authorities, that public opinion which the hon. and learned Member for Haddingtonshire declares to be necessary for their The Vice-President, throughout the success? Care has been taken to shut out whole of his speech, spoke of the public opinion from these new bodies. I County Council as being the authority quite agree with the hon. and learned established under the Bill. I think Member for Haddingtonshire that public that is rather a misrepresentation opinion and interest are vital to the of the proposal in the Bill. The improvement of the education of this County Council is really only the nominal authority. [An HON MEMBER: No.] Well, it has to act through this Committee, and the Committee is to be composed under a scheme which is to meet with the approval of the Department. I do not think it is at all likely to get any scheme which will give a representative Committee. The Colonial Secretary in his letter spoke of this Committee as a representative Committee. It will only be representative of those various interests brought into it, and it is only through that Committee that the local authority can have a voice in the work of the school. Who will go on to those Committees? They will be formed of those who have objects of their own to serve the representatives of diocesan associations, Roman Catholics, technical schools, mechanics' institutes, or other corporate agencies of that kind; and I do not think a single representative will go on but to push some particular fad of his own. The right hon. Gentleman told us that what was wanted in these local districts was a plan. What hope is there of getting a plan through this representative Committee, who will have to appease those various agencies? This scheme means intrigue. Why, it has already begun. There was an important meeting Mr. Alfred Hutton. 1 schools that could be devised were estab- time would come when School Board MR. ALFRED HUTTON: I suppose the schools would cover the whole country. Department of Education, which provides That a County Council should be enabled, most of the funds, will see to that; but merely by a resolution, and without who is to be punished if the new Comany referendum to the people, to abolish mittee refuse to consent to the proposal? the School Boards in their area and As to the appointment of the teachers, the take over the control of all the School right hon. Gentleman says that NonBoard and voluntary schools, seems to conformists cannot bring forward any me an action far more revolutionary case in which a religious test has been than the country is likely to accept. I imposed; but in the very next village to can assure the right hon. Gentleman that in which I live I know of two girls that those who are opposed to this Bill, whose family were Nonconformists, who and who form so important a part of regularly attended a Nonconformist place the community, do so because they will of worship, who were asked to join the not have their interests entirely neg- Anglican Church as a term of their engagelected. I cannot see what the denomi- ment as teachers. It is impossible to give national schools are giving up. They are names, because they are earning their asked to maintain their buildings in living, and it is a question of bread and repair. Is that a great matter? For, butter with them. Such a temptation after all, they are subsidised schools. ought not to be put in the way of young One of the But the Bishop of Chester and the men and young women. Bishop of London have already begun provisions of the Bill to remove Nonto say that that is a charge which they conformist's grievances is that if the Noncannot be expected to bear long; that it is an intolerable strain upon them. We shall next be told, therefore, that we must take over the whole of the voluntary schools and keep them in repair. Then the Bill provides that the Managing Committee of the voluntary schools must consent to have one-third of its members nominated by the Education Committee of the County or Borough Councils, but it is asking too much from the vicar and his friends to consent to be guided by this one-third representation of the public. To call that control, is absurd. OF THE conformists are dissatisfied with the Church schools they may build schools for themselves, which will be afterwards. maintained by the educational authority. But I say that that scheme is unsound educationally and economically, because it fact, worse than the grievance. Again, if will double the rates. The remedy is, in new accommodation is to be provided, and if the local authority considers economy to the rates, they will always decide in favour of denominational schools, because these would be entitled to 5s. per child more than undenominational schools, and that is a bribe which no local authority could resist. The noble Lord the Member for Greenwich says that this is simply a Bill to maintain the status quo, but that will only occur in a few special cases in I conclude by sayfast-growing towns. THE VICE-PRESIDENT COMMITTEE OF COUNCIL ON EDUCATION (Sir JOHN GORST, Cambridge University): If the hon. Member willing that this Bill seems to be most read Sub-section (a) of Clause 8, injurious, because it interferes with great will see that there is another very equality in regard to the use of public principles-first, with the idea of religious important condition. money; and second, with the old principle of public control in regard to the he MR. ALFRED HUTTON: They are to distribution of public money. have a control of the teachers. SIR JOHN GORST: What I was referring to was that the managers of the schools shall carry out any directions The Government will find the opposition to the Bill is so deep-seated that they cannot afford to neglect it. It being half-past Seven of the clock, of the local education authority as to the the debate was suspended until the evensecular instruction to be given in the ing sitting. schools. EVENING SITTING. educational experts, the time is coming when those experts will come into our EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) Councils by the ordinary channel and BILL. [SECOND READING.] give us the education which some of our Councils undoubtedly need. This will also Adjourned debate on Amendment to be good for these so-called educational Second Reading continued. *(9.0.) SIR ALBERT ROLLIT (Islington, S.): This Bill may be open to many of the criticisms which have been levelled against it by hon. Gentlemen opposite, and I do not doubt that considerable amendment will have to be made in its provisions. At the same time, it is an attempt to deal with our greatest national need, and, as I regard it, at least one step in the right direction. The only right hon. Gentleman who appears to have any doubt about this point is the Vice-President of the Council, who seems to think that no Act of Parliament and no legislation can achieve anything. We know that when the battle of Jena occurred a century ago one Minister said to his Sovereign, "We must make up intellectually what we have lost materially," and that is the sentence upon which has been built up the Government system of education which Germany now possesses, while our State system of education has not lasted a third so long. Hinc lachrymee! The chief recommendation of this scheme to me is its municipal basis. It gives us one educational authority, the councils of the counties and boroughs, which are directly representative. It gives us the one and the same rating and spending authority, which is most desirable, which at least will be far better than the system which enables precepts to be levied and payments must be made without any one knowing whether the payment is desirable -or not. And it strikes at the root of the system of the cumulative vote, which is not representative of the feeling of the people, but only representative of the feeling of faddists and of factions. The Bill will have one other advantage. It will re-act on local government itself. I believe knowledge and favour of local government to be of paramount importance. It will be one more incentive to the performance of public duty. I regard the concentration of public duty, and with it honour and responsibility, as likely to be attractive to the best men of all classes; and I could hope that, instead of having to co-opt experts, who are chiefly responsible for the present lamentable state of our education, for elections and the like will improve their own education. I have reason to know that our Councils are unanimous in their desire to assume the control of secondary education; and, while I am one who has no desire to supersede the School Boards, and while, as an old chairman of one, I know and appreciate their work, in some cases I feel that the municipalities have the stronger claim to the conduct of secondary education, great and long as have been the services of the Board, and valuable even when illegal. It has been asked where the moneys for this are coming from; they cannot come more surely or more liberally from anywhere than from the municipal authorities who have the power to rate. The Councils are in possession of and working for secondary education no less than technical instruction, and the wonder is that they have done the work of technical education so well as they have. The funds were thrown at them suddenly and without any direction, and yet we have the fact that of the £980,000 per annum contributed by the whiskey moneys, the Councils have applied £900,000 to technical education. Again, of sixty-four county boroughs no less than sixty-one have applied the whole of this money to education, and many boroughs, most county boroughs, if not all, have rated themselves for the purposes of education. It is only fair to add that most of the non-county horoughs have done the same, while no English county, save, perhaps, one partially, has done the same. By these means we have covered the whole of the country with technical education schools. I have one criticism to make upon the Bill from a municipal point of view, and that is that, while I have every faith in the principle of the Bill and the general action of the Councils, though there will be some new authorities, e.g., urban district Councils, I cannot agree with the right hon. Member for Dartford. There is nothing mandatory in it-at any rate so far as secondary instruction is concerned. The previous Bills have been mandatory, but the 66 words in this Bill are: "The Council | optional clause of the Bill, which has may aid secondary education," "may been so much denounced, but which marks use the whiskey moneys," may spend and has worked well in other educational further sums." I think it would have been statutes, e.g., the Library and Museums well to have put into the Bill at least some &c., Acts. I venture to say that coercion general directions by which these whiskey and force, even for a good object like moneys would be earmarked, and it education, are contradictory terms; and ought to be obligatory on the Councils I am going to ask: Is it wise to say to apply them to education. The Bill to a municipality which may doubt its confers many powers, but it carries with own powers or its time that it must it too many limitations and reserva- undertake elementary instruction? If tions. There is too great a multiplicity of appeals and the like, and I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President to remember his speech at Bradford, the one principle of which was trust in the municipalities and the firm belief that they knew best what their own interests were, and were prepared to follow them in an enlightened spirit. The second, and probably the more debatable, element of the Bill is one on which I shall speak simply as an educationist, and view it from that standpoint only. That is what may be called the principle of the utilisation of all our schools for educational purposes. The point is not to destroy any work that is in being not to waste it for we need all our educational resources. And the question is, when we have done all, whether we can retain our place in the great race. Now, there is undoubtedly some difference of opinion among municipalities as to whether the duties of directing primary education should be at present undertaken by them. The question is also complicated by Party feeling and some religious rancour; and it is sad to think that some religious people will work for religion, will fight for religion, will die for religion, and, in short, do any thing but live for it. One of the best features of our debate today, as when I also took part in the First Reading, is that there has been a better tone, more disposition to live for religion, and to show a more enlightened spirit in carrying out religion; because educational debates ought to be for education and also for religion. I believe the majority of the municipal Borough Councils, at any rate, desire to undertake elementary education as well as secondary education; but some ask: "Have we time for it, and are we educationally quite ripe for taking that responsibility?" I am, therefore, going to say word in favour of the adoptive or incapability or incompetence be pleaded, it seems to me it would be most unwise to apply compulsion in the interest of education itself. At any rate, an education force is no remedy. Therefore, I think that those Councils who desire to retain the School Board system for temporary or for transition purposes, and there are some great Corporations much attached to their Boards, and with reason and justice, should be allowed to do so without interference, even if it should cause some anomalies, and that the optional clause should be retained, in which case the schedule must be altered by making one year the limit for renewing the Motion to adopt the act in boroughs, which are annually and not triennially like County Councils, and after any election such a Motion ought to be possible. With regard to the rebuilding and replacing of voluntary schools, if the municipalities are to undertake elementary instruction, it seems to me that the voluntary schools are an absolutely indispensable part of the machinery. We cannot do without them if we would; and when an hon. Member (Mr. Mather) put the cost of replacing them at £50,000,000, of money, he put the problem in a concrete form and at once showed the difficulty. There are in these schools 3,000,000 children, or more than half our scholars; the schools number 14,000, which means in itself a capital of many millions; no rent is to be charged, and they are to be kept in repair. Are we to attempt to replace all these schools? Such a question answers itself. And, lastly, we have the fact, so characteristic of the country, that many insist on distinctive religious teaching. It may be that such early teaching may not be very fertile; it may now and again produce such a young theological scholar as the one who defined faith as a belief in things which can't happen, hope as a belief in things that don't happen, and charity as a belief in things which never will happen; but we |