enormous Some remarks have been made by previous speakers in regard to the small schools. I confess that that part of the Bill relating to small schools will require considerable amendment. As regards public control, I may be allowed to call public attention to a passage in the Report of the Royal Commission on Secondary Education. That Commission deprecate too much control. They think that secondary schools ought to be allowed considerable freedom, that they ought to be allowed to try experiments based on experience of the locality, and that the cause of education will be greatly advanced by these experiments. There is one remark I wish to make condemn the optional clause, and I do members of the Committee. most sincerely hope that before this debate reaches a conclusion we shall hear that the optional clause has been withdrawn. I wish to say one or two words with reference to Clause 8, which deals with control. I confess I am greatly surprised to hear objections to that clause from so many quarters. It appears to me that the control which remains to the managers of local schools is little indeed. There is control in Whitehall, and there is another control County Council, the only constituted local authority, and I think what remains of Clause 8 in the hands of managers is far less than the critics of that clause have fully realised or believe. On the other hand, before I resume my seat, and as to which I I do not think that those with whom I do not wish to be misunderstood. I believe act in some of those matters with I am as good a friend of education as reference to religious education have sufficiently appreciated the any Member of this House, but I am by burden which they are undertaking in no means certain that much of the money regard to the buildings. The great diffi- spent on education has been wisely spent. It does not, however, follow that, beculty we have before us, as the friends of the voluntary schools, is the condition of cause money has been spent freely, our buildings. They are very inferior in it has been spent usefully. I believe plan to those which are now prevalent, that much money spent on buildings and, being inferior in plan, the wear and might have been more usefully spent in tear of twenty years has rendered them the cause of education. If the managers unfit to play their part in education. We had been more modest in their policy have before us in connection with this as regards construction there might have clause enormous expense in the erection been more comfort to the pupils, the of new buildings. The cost must be very work of education might have been We know what the cost more satisfactory both to the teachers of schools is in great towns, but even in and those who received the instruction. manufacturing villages the figures reach I think it would be an advantage to the a large amount. I have in my mind at friends of education if a different system this moment a manufacturing village of construction of the school buildings where the number of children is were adopted. Something has been said, about 500, and the school has cost and well said, as regards overlapping. £15,000. The voluntary schools are Overlapping very often means redunasked to erect schools on the same dancy. I know of cases where a technical lines as the school in Yorkshire to which school has been erected in the immediate I refer. I certainly do think that the neighbourhood of an endowed school bargain-if I may call it a bargain which was doing good work, and where under Clause 8 is a severe bargain with the the endowed school has been greatly friends of voluntary schools, and I feel injured by the rivalry of a school which the greatest surprise that it has not been was doing exactly the same work as the more cordially welcomed by those who endowed school. I have already said take a different view from ourselves on that the work of education cannot be this subject. As regards the nomination completed in this country in one generaon the managing body of one-third only, tion. We are only laying the foundation it must not be forgotten that this third now. The work will be carried on necessarily holds the power of the purse.generation after generation, and it will They represent those who have to pay out the money, and therefore they have an authority far in excess of the other VOL. CVII. [FOURTH SERIES.] considerable. only be at the end of half a century that we shall have attained the goal reached either by Germany or America. We 2 H are only beginning the work of which a future generation will see the end, and it is our duty to insist that the foundation is well and truly laid and that our successors shall reap the benefit of our labours under conditions which to us of this day are a vision and a dream. *(5.52.) MR. MATHER (Lancashire, Rossendale): I feel that the debate on this great question has been conducted in a manner worthy of the House of Commons. The spirit exhibited on both sides has been most conciliatory, so far as the Bill before us enables this great question to be discussed. I think there has been a fair appreciation on both sides of the House of the motives which led the Government to bring the Bill before the House and the purposes they had in view. But I cannot forbear expressing the opinion that neither the Government nor those who, up till now, have addressed the House are sufficiently aware of the great magnitude and the far-reaching issues involved in the measure now under con sideration. The last speaker, the hon. Member for Wigan, stated that the educational status of Germany and America had not been attained in a day. That is true, and it is because it is true, that we must realise that we have long years to make up educationally before we can place our people-the finest people in the world-on the same educational plane as is enjoyed by those nations with whom we rank in extending the civilisation of the world. of life. I do not wish to deal with sordid I think it may not be lost time if I endeavour to place before the House, for a few minutes, the position we have to face in England, In these institutions there especially in competition with that nation -Our own kith and kin across the were, in 1890, 280,000 students from whom no payment was required, while Atlantic-whose progressive development during the last twenty years has astonished in 1896 there were 480,000 students. In the world, and whose standard we have all the public and private educational to aspire to by very much the same pro- institutions below the colleges there a daily attendance of 646,000 cess they have had to go through. I had was the honour of visiting the United States students of from fourteen to eighteen on the invitation of the late Mr. Mun- years of age, all being trained for indella, and of spending the greater part of dustrial, professional, or educational life. a year in inquiring into technical education In addition to that, there are 484 there, for the purpose of reporting to the colleges and universities, provided by Royal Commission on the subject in 1883. State funds and private beneficence, I was therefore enabled to see the enormous besides 162 women's colleges and 48 difference between ourselves and America, technological schools, the total value of and even Germany, in the application of which amounts to 57 millions sterling. a cultured intelligence to all the purposes That is what is being done in Sir Francis Powell. a I a Bill ostensibly to place the educational ! system of England on a proper basis. I will admit to the Vice-President that this Bill is a very large Bill in the sense that it is country with which we shall have to compete in the future not only in industrial enterprise, but also in the intellectual, and probably in the moral, sphere. In the State of Massachusetts comprehensive; but it is so attenuated alone there are 262 high schools. that it seems to be almost impossible have myself visited towns in America, to build up a national system of educa with only a population of 5,000 inhabi- tion out of it worthy of this country, tants, which have a high school for boys capable of maintaining this country in and another for girls, or a mixed high the position it has held in the past, or of, school. Now, in my own division of in any degree, competing with the intelRossendale, in Lancashire, there is lectual life and power of America and a population of 70,000, and there Germany. Considered from that point is only one high school-a Grammar school capable of receiving 100 boys a school partially endowed, no thanks to the present generation. The girls in that division have to travel by rail to a neighbouring town at great inconvenience and considerable expense in order to enjoy the advantages of a high school training. In America children have an enormo is advantage. They have at their very doors, associated with the elementary schools, high schools through which all the children can pass absolutely free. It is one of the characteristics of these American schools that they are all conducted on such principles and under such a system that the scholars or students, whether in the primary or in the high schools, regard school life as the happiest and most joyous time of their existence. They have apparently only one desire, and that is, in some degree, to excel. The teachers are devoted to their occupation; thousands upon thousands of them are trained in the normal colleges, and, therefore, the entire system is one organic whole, leading the humblest boy and girl to the highest position to which education can take them, if they are able to avail themselves of the oppor tunity. That, roughly, is the system which exists in the nation nearest to selves in characteristics, and the nation ourwhich is likely to compete with us intellectually as well as commercially in the future. I ask-Is it fair to the children of the United Kingdom that their opportunities should be so few as compared with the opportunities given to the children of the great nation across the Atlantic? I can imagine everyone saying," No, it is not fair." The Government have, in consequence, brought in of view, is it not the duty of this House, is it not a solemn obligation on Parliament, that we should face this question with large minds? Beware of this, that no limited expenditure of money can have any relation to the object proposed. Money is the last thing that should be considered in relation to education. It is useless to tell us, who have, in this House and out of it, for so many years advocated a better national system of instruction, capable of giving our people the advantages enjoyed by the people of other nations, that it would cost a great deal of money. I know it would cost a great deal of money; and I know that under present conditions the Government have shrunk from encountering the cost of a thoroughly national system of education based on the lines of education in other countries with which we will have in future to compete. But the great crux in the situation, of course, has been the eternal religious difficulty. I can understand the adherents of the be Church of England, and those who believe They receive State grants by the will of Parliament, but these grants do not cover the whole expenditure of the schools. These grants are given in order that the schools may still continue to give denominational teaching during a certain hour of the day, but the balance of the expenditure must be obtained from their own resources. Under this Bill. though I know it is not actually declared in words, the whole cost of the voluntary schools now in existence will be paid out of the rates and by Treasury grants. We all know, taking human nature as it is, that as soon as this Bill passes with such a provision, the subscriptions will cease, and that the contribution which the owners of voluntary schools will make will consist of the use of the buildings, which they undertake to keep painted and papered and in decent order. That will be inevitable. Why should it be anything else? If we pass this Bill, why should the owners of voluntary schools give a farthing for any other purpose except for the upkeep of the buildings? intellectual requirements and achieve of their owners. to the board schools and the denominational schools. I do not know whether I am right, but, judging from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House on the First Reading of this Bill, and also by what has been said by the Vice-President, I have come to the conclusion that voluntary schools will, ipso facto, cease to exist as such if this Bill passes. The noble Lord the Member for Greenwich, in his extremely able and delightful speech, alluded indirectly to the same point, perhaps not desiring to make of it what I should like to make of it. I understand that, when the voluntary schools receive from the State and from the rates the whole cost of the education they supply, ipso facto they cease to be voluntary schools. The only reason for their existence today is because they are partially supported by the subscriptions Mr. Mather. Under these circumstances, I cannot arrive at any other conclusion than that the voluntary schools will cease on the passing of this Bill. What rights will they then have left? They will have the right of denominational teaching. That is to say, the owners of Church schools, will, for a certain prethe schools, be they Roman Catholic or scribed limit daily, have the right of Own creeds by cateteaching their is that right to be retained? On what chism or by any other means. Why ground of justice is it to be retained? It is retained on the ground of the bargain involved in the clauses of this Bill which imply that the Government says, "We will not take from you your schools at a rental. You shall give us the use of the buildings and maintain them in good repair for secular instruction, and we will allow you to continue denominational teaching in them in return for this contribution.” I think the voluntary schools for secular teaching will be abolished, so soon as the whole cost is borne by public funds, by an automatic process; for then they will But the have become public schools. denominational principle of teaching to now. may That is But I do SO in the schools is purchased by the owners cannot ask for more than oneowners of these schools through the quarter of the representation. accommodation they offer by their logically correct and true. buildings. This Bill presents this thin not know that we ought to be partition between the absolute suppres- nice about the proportion as to say sion of all denominational teaching, and that we should have the proportion of when that partition is swept away, de- four to one, or any exact proportion; but nominational teaching ceases. That in the Amendment which I hope to move be undesirable, but I am not going on this Bill, if I may be allowed to say argue the religious question so, at a subsequent stage, I would claim, I belong to all denominations. under these circumstances, that at least I can worship in any Church. I see good half of the local school management in every Church. The Church of Eng- committees, appointed by the local educaland and all denominations receive my tion authority, plus one, must be the least humble contributions. I am always glad majority, in order to deal justly with to support any religion that has anything the public control of the school. That of good in it. If I see a Church, of any may destroy the voluntary character of kind, teaching the duty of religion in rela- the schools, but it does not interfere tion to life, then, in an indirect degree, I with nor destroy the privileges allowed think I am a member of that Church. to them by Parliament of teaching, within proper limits, the tenets of the Church to which the school buildings belong. This public control covers a great principle, which many Members of this House cannot see violated without much vehement opposition. the In this matter of denominational school buildings supplying accommodation for three millions of children I think the circumstances of today are so difficult that if we had the power we should not be justified in denying the rights which these schools Now, another part of the Bill deals with have had for thirty years past under the what, in my opinion, is by far the most imAct of 1870. But if they are to enjoy portant part of this matter-the question those rights, under what conditions must of the local education authority. Durthey enjoy them when they are no ing my absence in Egypt, my right longer voluntary schools? We ought hon. friend. if I may call him to say: You can enjoy the control in so, in the lucid and admirable speech of these schools to in which management he introduced the Bill, the extent which your contribution to made a very kindly allusion to the the object of the school represents. great interest I take in education. He then If you take a denominational school traversed the statement which I had made for 500 children, an excellent school, in this House last year about America, provided with all the accessories, will and said it was not quite in accordance cost about £5,000. Supposing the rent of that school was £250, with another with the facts. I have looked up the statements in the short speech which £50 added for repairs, then you get he referred to, and I certainly find that, £300 a year, which might be the that would be charged if the while the words I used might bear the school were given over to the local interpretation which my right hon. friend placed upon them, they are absoauthorities altogether. To the extent of that sum, contributed to the total cost of lutely true for the purposes for which education in that form, the denomi- I used them. I said that all schools were under the control nationalists deserve representation. The in America of School Boards. I should have representation which the local authority | ought to have must also be in proportion said School Boards and School Committees. The School Board is elected to what they contribute. If they contribute £1,200 from public funds to in the United States, or, at least, in the maintain that school as a highly efficient majority of the States, though in some and excellent school, the proportion the Councils; but, when once formed, it cases it is appointed by nomination of would be as four to one between the is absolutely_responsible. local educational authority proposed elected, the Boards have absolute conunder the Bill and the owners of the trol over all grades of education except school buildings. The denominational the colleges; nor can authorities who rent When once |