*(5.0.) MR. ELLIS GRIFFITH What does that mean except that the (Anglesey): I have listened with regret, secular instruction is merely the nominal but without surprise, to the speech instruction that goes on, for which of my "mistaken and misguided ally." nobody cares, while the real object of For my own part, if the leader of the the school is the religious instruction for reigning dynasty offers us an alliance, I which he contends? shall ask him to prove his sympathy by deed, not by words; by performance, not by peroration. The noble Lord speaks not only on his own behalf, but also in a representative capacity as leader of the Church Party, and there can be no doubt as to the underlying difference of opinion between us. He has admitted it quite candidly. He says the object of elementary school is to turn out Churchmen; we think it is to turn out citizens. That, in a sentence, is the difference between the noble Lord and ourselves upon this important point. I think we are entitled to ask whether the Government has a mandate from the country to introduce a Bill of this kind. Was there anything said at the last general election, or even in 1895, about the Government introducing such a Bill as this? I am not quite sure what was before the country at the last two elections. In 1895 the war had not begun; in 1900 the war was over. It is therefore, exceedingly difficult to find out what really was the point upon which the country voted. But if we go back as far as 1895, I think we get from Lord Salisbury a prophecy concerning this Bill. Speaking on June 13th, he said—

I am not going into the details of the Bill. There are only two points I desire to put before the House. I do not know what the principle or lack of principle of this Bill may be, but I believe that, under it, in the long run we should find that the Church schools, 14,000 in number, will be absolutely in clerical hands. The principle which, in my opinion, ought to govern these schools is that it should depend upon the contribution given. If there is a school supported entirely by voluntary effort, I would give the whole government of that school into voluntary hands. If, on the other hand, there is a school supported entirely out of Government funds, the control of that school should be wholly in Government hands. In this Bill and in these schools we are dealing with a mid-position between those two, and we have to determine as best we can the fair and righteous way of dealing with the government of these schools. We have on the one hand the voluntary managers, who naturally, and rightly from their own point of view, are trying to get as much power as they can; and on the other hand we have the Vice-President of the Council, who is trustee to the State, and who will try to get for the State as much representation as he can in the management of these schools. Under the Bill the voluntary management will subscribe the equivalent of This is the "better law that we are rent and repairs, and some amount of now discussing. We are nearly all voluntary subscriptions. That seems to agreed that the religious instruction in be a fair way of putting it. The real the voluntary schools is far better than point we have to consider, therefore, is the secular instruction. There is a what proportion to the whole budget of proper recognised religion being taught, the school the rent, repairs, and volunbut there is only "a sort of" education tary subscriptions form. The First Lord going on. It appears to me that the of the Treasury, when introducing the noble Lord and his friends are not Bill, estimated that the cost of building placing enough emphasis on the ordinary instruction in elementary schools. In fact, writing to The Guardian on April 2nd, the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich said

"It is your business to capture the board schools-to capture them in the first instance under the existing law, and then to capture them under a better law."

"If, for instance, a teacher is not satisfactory from a religious point of view, who cares what his teaching may nominally be?"

the schools would amount to about £26,000,000. I think he was calculating on 14,000 schools at about £2,000 each. If you put a rent on that sum, it would come to nearly £1,000,000, and the whole of the voluntary subscriptions and repairs may be put at £500,000, or £1,500,000 in all. The sum spent by the State on

these schools is about £5,000,000, so him in an educational measure touching that the amount subscribed by the volun- an important branch of our national tary management comes to about one- life. fifth, or less. I submit that when the State contributes four-fifths of the expenditure it ought not to be satisfied with one-third of the control. It has been taken for granted that one-third of the representation on this authority will be some guarantee that the voluntary managers will not have their own way completely. There is no reason at all for that supposition. If a reactionary Committee is appointed by a reactionary County Council, there is no guarantee at all that the added man will not be a churchwarden or some one on the vicar's side. There ought to be a representative not merely of the Educational Committee which meets at a distance, but also of the Parish Council or the local authority which knows the actualities on the spot.

Reference has been made to the I would urgency of the question. venture to repeat the sentiment which has been so often urged, because I believe it lies at the very root of the matter. not a day of national If this were emergency, it might be unfair to ask Members on either side of the House to surrender their predilections or even their prejudices. But this is a day of national emergency, and it is only right that Members should be willing to make some sacrifice of personal convictions, in order to attain a great national end. our deficiency in The question of technical education has been brought closely home to me as a native and a representative of Lancashire. In former the fire in my

was

I then

There is one other point. This Bill days, as I watched appears to me to place in perpetuity room, I have thought what these 14,000 schools under the domina- it tion of the clerical party. I would not mind so much if it were only to last during the life of one Parliament, but when the Bill proposes that the power over these schools should be placed for ever and ever in clerical hands, I think that is a measure to which Parliament ought not to give its assent. For these reasons, although the Bill be amended in Committee, as long as it puts the predominating power in the hands of the voluntary managers of these schools, I, for one, shall vote against it at every stage.

reason An additional

a pity colours that the brilliant saw should not be made use of for manufacturing. England discovered the application, and inBut the vented the aniline dyes. importance of the discovery was not left to the appreciated, and it was Germans to derive the greatest advantage from the industry, the development of which was entirely at the command of England. I do not think it is known in this country how great is the loss we have sustained. I have seen on the banks of the Rhine some of those large establishments for the manufacture of aniline dyes. The works themselves are gigantic, but they are the least part of the institutions. They are in neighthe dwellings bourhoods which are of a thriving population. I have one in my mind where every workman has a beautiful garden round his house, houses where the increase in size

*(5.10.) SIR FRANCIS POWELL (Wigan): As one who is not a novice in the work of education, I hope the House will permit me to express my views on this Bill. for desiring to take part in this debate is the fact that, although I was not a Member of the House in 1870, I was associated with Mr. Forster by the closest bonds of personal friendship. according to the importance of the Moreover, I was hon. secretary of the inmate, where the leading partners National Education Union, an institu- in the concern dwell under pleasant tion brought into existence in antag- circumstances in the midst of the workonism to the Birmingham Education people, and where there are admirable It is a somewhat remarkable schools, beautiful churches, and every League. incident in a prolonged political life that, while in 1870 I was strongly opposed to my right hon. friend the Member for West Birmingham, I am today, thirty years after, supporting

provision for the comfort with which we desire to surround the habitations of working men. When I saw all that in Germany, I could not help thinking

what a pity it was that we had not the same advantages for our Lancashire population.

I desire to make one or two fragmentary observations before going more fully into the Bill. References have been made to the pupil teachers. It - has not been sufficiently noticed that the pupil teacher of to-day is the result of accident. He was devised by Sir James Kay - Shuttleworth, I think, as an improvement on the monitorial system. I do not look upon the pupil teacher system as anything more than a temporary expedient. It was examfew years ago by a Commission, and the Report of that Commission led to an inquiry by the National Society. I had the honour of sitting on that Committee, and the impression produced on my mind was that, although for a few years the system might continue, it was a condemned system, and could not form a permanent part of our national system of education.

ined into

a

With regard to training colleges, we are terribly behind the Continent. In foreign capitals, and towns of any magnitude, we cannot help being struck by the large size of the buildings devoted to the training of teachers. Within those noble structures the education is prolonged and complete, and the teachers go into active life thoroughly equipped with all the intellectual, moral, and physical advantages which they require. Across the Atlantic, our American relations have adopted the same system, and it is on the basis of that system that they have built up, in large measure, their most successful scheme of national education.

Then I should like to refer to what I may call the overgrown school. I do not believe that schools containing 1,000 or 1,200 children are popular amongst parents, or that they are valuable educational agencies. They seem to turn out children just as a manufacturer turns out pieces of cloth. The mechanical side of education is too dominant, and the loss of sympathy, tenderness, and what I may term "humanity," is very great. Schools in which each individual child can be better known tend far more effectively to the cultivation of those higher qualities which it is the imperative endeavour of every educationist to produce.

Sir Francis Powell.

Coming more closely to the Bill, I venture to express my great satisfaction at the measure the Government have introduced. I do not say it is perfect, I do not think it not think it will pass through Committee without alteration; but it does meet the main condition which we have been endeavouring, during many years, to force on the Government-viz., that it should be a complete system covering the whole ground, that it should be a permanent system, so far as any system can be permanent, and that the educational world should be able to look forward to many years during which this systemwith modifications, no doubt, and some improvement as time goes on-would be

the central feature in the education of the We have wasted much time in these country. That condition is very necessary.

controversie.

If we can once establish a system which is the basis of a permanent arrangements, we shall learn from experience day by day and year by year, and it will be for a rather than future the present generation work of education to reap the wholesome fruit. The of education must necessarily be slow. It is to the sons and daughters of those who are now children that we must look for the diffusion through the whole of the community of that sound education which will really, for the first time, give that which we so greatly desire to see in this country.

area

The question of area has always been one of great importance. When we deal with areas, we require one of large size; and I am sure that no less than the county or county borough is equal to the duties which the authority must have imposed upon it. Without a large area you cannot have any security for an enlightened public opinion, the necessary resources, or that staff of teachers without which no system of education can be effective.

There is one blot on the Bill which has made its appearance at this early stageviz., as regards the small local authority. If that part of the Bill remains, it can be rendered effective and useful only if the power of combination is freely exercised. We have an example in the borough which I

have the honour to represent. We are building a technical school at a cost of £50,000, and are receiving assistance from the surrounding authorities by means of combination. That great technical school, in the centre of the largest mining

T

in Wales. There is compulsion to frame
a scheme under the Bill, and there is
compulsion to frame schemes in Wales;
but when a scheme is once in operation,
it depends on the free will of the
authorities to carry it out
or let it
languish. We must rely on public
opinion in all these matters. It is totally
impossible in education to force the
pace. You can only advance by having
public opinion at your back, and by
gradually advancing as public opinion
advances with you. In that way you
ensure a safe and sure passage to the
goal which you desire to reach.

the poll. The time, I am sure, is fully of zeal in some cases which may be injuriripe, looking to the apathy of the ous to the work of education. The analogy electoral body, when there should be a of Wales, I am sure, is very encouraging. change in the nature of that suggested There has been success in Wales. I in the Bill. Some are of opinion, believe there will be like success in judging from their speeches, that this England, too. If I read the Bill rightly, country is enamoured of the School it is a mistake to say that there is no Board system, and that there is a great compulsion. There is, I think, the same desire to have School Boards throughout compulsion in this Bill as now exists the whole country. There is disappointment on their part that there is any place where a School Board is not in operation. In the report last year of the Education Department there is a statement showing the number of School Boards and the circumstances under which they were constituted. It is an instructive document. In the counties and municipal boroughs, excluding London, there were 197 School Boards, and of these fifty-seven were compulsory, and 140 voluntary. In unincorporated towns and rural districts there were 2,347 School Boards, and of these 1,093 were compulsory, 205 were created by the necessity of meeting deficiencies by closing, and only 1,049 were constituted on the application of the people. The net result is that of 2,544 School Boards, 1,150 have been constituted by the compulsory action of the Central Department. I think that is a circumstance worthy of mention, and it goes far to show that the School Board system does not enjoy that popularity which some friends of it would desire us to believe. I am not speaking in depreciation of School Boards and their work, but I do say that the figures I have ventured to cite go to show that they do not enjoy that universal popularity of which we hear so much on the platform and in the House of Commons.

I shall not make remarks on the religious aspect of the question. That has been, I think, sufficiently discussed already. I think I have already seen signs of agreement as regards religion. I believe that we all feel the necessity of advancing religious teaching in our schools. Something has been said about conscientious conviction. I believe there is nothing so hurtful to conscientious conviction as a purely secular system. I am quite sure, when you come to deal, as you must deal, with tender consciences, there is less injury done to susceptibilities and convictions by the plan of the Government than by adopting any method which would practically lead to secular education, pure and simple, among the people of this country.

There is one provision in the Bill which There is one difficulty in this Bill which I think is admirable, and that is the has been spoken of by previous speakers, elasticity and the variety which will be and to which I must make some referpossible in education should the Bill be- ence, and that is the optional clause. I come law. We cannot have a system of believe the optional clause has no friends. rigid uniformity. The country will not endure a drastic code, but at the same time the system, which forms part of the Bill, that there shall be schemes constituted to meet the wants of different places, will give power to the central authority to see that there is some uniformity of idea running through the whole system, and will prevent that falling away from want Sir Francis Powell.

I have heard no commendation of that clause in the course of the debate in this House. I have had the honour of receiving a communication from the Technical Instruction Committee of the commend the Bill, and desire that I borough I represent, in which they should do what I can in the House to pass it through Parliament. But, while speaking in these terms of the Bill, they