as were to system the whole ground will be covered, on the authorities. That Bill established and children of Nonconformists as well the local authorities, and those local children of Church of England authorities form certain parents can be trained. That is only Committees which were to go into the fair. So far as this Bill is concerned, all question of education in all their the criticisms as to the training of districts and report to the local authorities teachers are absolutely unfair, because under its provisions a complete system of training of teachers can be carried out, and the grievances of the Nonconformists swept away entirely and for ever. SO I as to whether they should employ the halfpenny rate to which that Bill was limited-there was no compulsion. do not blame the Bill, but I think that when one who was an Educational Minister criticises this measure, Now a word as to what I consider is the with unlimited rating powers, in the weakest portion of the Bill—that is, where way he has done, considering the the money is to come from. I think change that has come over the local Parliament will fully and frankly admit authorities, it is hardly fair, especially that there can be no possible doubt that when it is compared with his own effort on education. The Bill, so far as the elethere was no more unfortunate time to bring forward a Bill for Education than mentary portion of it is concerned, must the present, when the people are so be strengthened. Icannot say I agree with heavily taxed and rated. But I, for that part of the Bill as it now stands. one, hold that nothing could be more It must be made compulsory so far as lamentable and destructive to the cause elementary education is concerned, and of education than that this question my vote in that regard will be for should be further postponed. The compulsion. In regard to the measure position of many of the elementary schools in this country, not only in the rural districts, but in some of the poorer districts of our towns, is simply deplorable. Every day, every hour, that this Act is postponed means an increase of rates. This question must be dealt with at once, and some sacrifices must be made. I have heard it argued that this Bill is weak, but, weak as it may be, as regards secondary education it gives a mandate to those bodies and (3.28.) SIR EDWARD GREY those authorities who carry out secondary education as well as technical (Northumberland, Berwick): The right itself, we cannot expect that all our wishes and aspirations should be carried out, but, knowing as I do the vast difficulties that surround this question, I accept this Bill as the only solution which, under all the circumstances of the case, will at all events start a system of secondary education, and fill the gaps in our present system and give us in its place one worthy of a great nation. up hon. Gentleman who has just sat education, and they will not shirk the down claimed for himself, in one task imposed upon them. That they will assist this scheme and launch this portion of his speech, that he ap vessel on her way as soon as the Bill is proached educational questions from a wide, Parliamentary, and impartial point passed I am quite certain. An old of view. I think there is no Member friend of mine, Mr. Acland, criticised of the House to whom that claim would this Bill, especially as far as secondary be more readily and fully conceded than education is concerned. I join the right hon. Gentleman, and in his issue with him in all friendliness in all the matters he criticised, for I believe when once this Bill is passed and in working order all those phantoms will disappear into thin air. But Mr. Acland attacked this Bill because of the feebleness with which it has approached the question of secondary education. In 1892 Mr. Acland himself introduced a Bill for secondary education, and that Bill put no compulsory powers speech tonight he never once departed from that fair and reasonable spirit which we have become accustomed to associate with his utterances. I can give considerable assent to, and have considerable sympathy with, some of his remarks. I agree with him in the feeling of shame which I think he said was felt at the long time for which we have had to confess our inability in this country to establish a thorough and satisfactory came to the application of the principle I would demur in approaching this subject to the premise laid dow by the Vice-President of the Council. I understood him to say that this debate and division were critical and decisive with regard to the principle We cannot look to this House. This on which the educational system would House is already overloaded, weighed be founded. No doubt the discussion of down, crushed, and suffocated by the the principle is a most important part in amount of work concentrated upon it, the matter of our debates on education. to the despair of every one. [An HoN. We have got, I think, rather into the MEMBER: No, no!] Well, is every habit of talking about differences of one satisfied with the working of the principle; whereas it seems to me House-with the present state of busithat in recent years the difference in ness of this House? ["No, no!"] Why, abstract principle is becoming among it is not so long ago since I heard us less and less, while the difference the First Lord of the Treasury speak as to the application of that principle in a tone of great depression as to is becoming more and more, important. It is not the principle that is in doubt; what is in doubt and dispute is the application of the principle. It does seem to me just now that in the speech of the Vice-President he was attempting to do what the Government has done so often with regard to other questions -the weaker their case on the merits, the more they throw into it this question of principle. It is not with the merits of the principle that I find fault; it is the merits of the Bill of which we complain. To a great deal of the speech of the Vice-President when he was dealing with this question of principle I gave my assent. I heard some parts of the speech with regard to principle with satisfaction, with approbation, and even with admiration. I thought that part of his speech strong; but when he Sir Edward Grey. the possibility of getting a big Education Bill through the House. Why? Because the House is so overloaded that it could not address itself to the question in a business-like spirit. The only way in which the House of Commons can get rid of what is a public danger is by more and more devolution. We cannot look at this question solely from the point of view of the education question. You must keep in view the development of local government as well as education. I will begin by saying that I will take no step, in education or anything else, which does not, in my view, facilitate further devolution. I do not myself like the word. I prefer the term Home Rule. To get that, you have to stimulate local life; and I agree with the Vice-President that you cannot stimulate local life-and I give it a wider application, I think, than the by taking any step to shut them off from right hon. Gentleman-you cannot do the ultimate control of education. One that by scattering powers among authority is the thing towards which I different co-ordinate rating authorities. should work in each locality; but I do You dissipate local interests until you recognise great force in what my hon. get central local authorities. You want friend the Member for Oldham said to make the existing local authorities when he referred to the danger of much greater than they are. You want attempting to do by one step-by one to give them some more megalomania, a span, across the bridge which is to grow greater view of their own importance, up-I think you will have to have two provided it coincides with the work they spans; to advance by two steps; but, have to perform. assuming that to be the object, does the Bill establish one authority? Does it proceed on the principle of one authority? Now we come to the weaker part of the speech of the Vice-President of the Council. He admitted that there are exceptions in the Bill, and he defended them by saying that, though they were illogical, something of the illogical was always to be found in all British legisla I contend that, not only for education, but for all purposes in large county or borough areas, we should have one local budget, to be distributed by a central authority. If you get that, you may have some real progress in local affairs. You will then get some real public spirit introduced into local work of the locality, instead of apathy, indifference, and confusion. 'Smaller local authorities there tion. He regards illogicality as unavoidmust be, but let them be subordinate | able. But how did this illogicality get under the central local authority. Now, into this Bill? I think it got into the if the Government were making for that Bill from the force of logic, and not end, which I call the Home Rule end, in from the want of logic. It is a fact our local affairs, then I should be pre- that the areas suitable for secondary pared to sacrifice even something of what education are not always always suitable I may think are the immediate needs of for elementary education. It was, after education to see that end furthered. all, making logic felt in the Bill, but But the Government seem to me cer- it did not recognise it. 1 admit that tainly to be reactionary in this matter. we want different areas for secondary The one great institution where a local and elementary education, and that authority has risen to a high position you want a plan suitable and consistent and importance-I refer to the London for each district in your educational County Council-there the Government system. You do not want to do it under seem to recoil with horror from the the rigid exceptions made in this Bill. thing which they have created. It Under this Bill you do not give County follows from what I have said that in Councils a fair chance. your ultimate educational system it rigid system, and these rigid exceptions must be the County and Borough will sometimes facilitate and sometimes Councils that must be the authorities obstruct the system in any given area. charged with the central local control of Could any one have listened last night education. That, I think, must be; to the speech of the hon.Member withand if this is to be regarded as setting up out realising to the full extent all the a separate ad hoc authority and making confusion which will be introduced into it permanent, or working up to Borough such a parish as Whalley in Lancashire, and County Council control, I should to which the hon. Member referred, vote for the control of the Borough and where you are to have at least nine County Council. different authorities without being I do not understand the question of subordinate? If you add to this conprinciple to be raised in the speech of fusion which is inseparable from these my right hon. friend the Member exceptions in the Bill, these separate for South Aberdeen. He dealt with the arbitrary authorities, the separate rate merits of the Bill, as I wish to do. I with respect to higher and elementary wish to develop the future powers of education, and separate systems of these local authorities, the County and management for different classes of Borough Councils, and I will not begin schools, you cannot expect to have an You set up a effective and harmonious system. If that your provision for higher education you are to have one separate authority cannot be complete and comprehensive for education you must trust it. You to the same extent as elementary educamust make it draw up a scheme and tion, but that is no reason for putting give it a fair start and a fair field, but the limit of 2d. on the rate. Even do not discourage it from the first by accepting the limit for higher education, these rigid exceptions which we see in which I have described, there is no the present Bill. reason why the local authorities should not be free to spend what they will in developing the material which is under them. I would go further than that, I would lay upon them the duty of making provision for this. It was said last night that Wales afforded no precedent in this matter. What has been done in Wales has, I believe, been eminently successful; and its success alone makes it a precedent, and a most valuable precedent. It is the only one we have; why should we not take it as a precedent? "Oh, because," it was said, Wales had no endowments to start with, and we have endowments.” But, Sir, a partial system of endowments may be a curse and a snare. If you have not endowments enough to cover the whole field and to give you a complete system, but only endowments enough to make you think it is not necessary to follow the Welsh precedent and to set up a complete system, then endowments are a snare. This Bill lays no duty upon County Councils; it gives them no As to the optional clauses. The Bill is not compulsory as to one part, and so we have got, I think, great difficulty as to this option. I notice some hesitation as to whether option should be withdrawn by taking away the choice or by making the choice compulsory, but everybody seems to agree that the option remaining in the Bill is intolerable. If you leave option in the Bill as it is, if it is not exercised, no doubt higher education may make progress under those Borough and County Councils which would be free to devote themselves to the question of higher education but while they are doing this the option still remaining would paralyse the existing authorities, and the School Boards will never know at what time the option may be exercised. If, on the other hand, the local authority does exercise this option, then I venture to say, as my hon. friend the Member for Oldham pointed out, you discourage and overweight the education authority. What is wanted in our educational system is not the relief of elementary, mandate. The right hon. Gentleman but to make up arrears in higher education, with regard to which we have fallen back. We have believed in our prosperity, and in our raw material being so much better than other countries, but we have not been making the best of it by higher education. We have fallen into arrears as to that. What we want is higher education, not higher education for everybody. You cannot give it to everybody as you give elementary education-not a complete scheme as in elementary education. I admit that. There is in education a law of increasing and diminishing returns, and it differs with individuals. The more you spend on the education of one individual up to higher university education the greater the return, but with another individual you will get little or no return beyond elementary education. But how much is wanted, even to discriminate or provide a system of scholarships, to take those who are most worthy? I quite agree Sir Edward Grey. said a mandate was given to them. 1 can find no mandate in the Bill to do anything more for higher education. The County and Borough Councils have no mandate and have no duty laid upon them. But they have a permissive power, and the right hon. Gentleman opposite spoke, deservedly, with great praise of the use that many of them have hitherto made of that permissive power. Yes, but they did not make use of it out of the rates; it was money supplied out of the Exchequer under the Technical Instruction Act; and whatever they have done with that permissive power does not affect the question of what they may do with the permissive powers under this Bill. admit that they have taken what is called the whisky money and have in a most public-spirited way devoted it to education when they had the power to devote it to the rates. Yes; but under this Bill, while you are giving permissive powers in regard to higher education, you are laying upon them-if you take away the option clause, as I assume it is to be taken away-you are going to lay a compulsory duty on them with regard to elementary education, that is to levy a new rate to relieve elementary educa tion. higher enducation. Then, I would have encouraged them to make their scheme liberal and generous by offering them from the national exchequer a contribution at least equal to anything that they were willing to raise from the rates. If that had been done we should have been told-Well, but then you are not putting secondary and primary education under the same authorThat compulsory obligation will steri-ity, and you cannot distinguish between lise and destroy the permissive power. them. "You cannot," said the ViceIf you are going to lay simultaneously, President of the Council, "distinguish side by side, upon the local authority between secondary and primary educawhich will have to face great opposition tion." Sir, this Bill does distinguish to any new rate that compulsory obliga- between secondary and primary education. tion and that permissive power, both of The Cockerton judgment has distinguished which will make demands upon the between them. You have the Cockerton rates, the permissive power is bound to judgment still in operation, and the go to the wall. In this Bill you not distinction exists in this Bill. But I do only do not lay a duty upon them, but not see the great need at this moment of you positively discourage the exercise distinguishing between secondary and of the power with regard to higher primary education. I distrust this fear education. It is from this point of view of overlapping; we talk about overlapping that this is positively a reactionary Bill; in education as if it was the greatest for by the obligation of levying a new danger from which this country suffered rate you are encouraging and doubling -as if we were suffering from a surfeit the temptation to the local authority to Boards," said the Vice-President of the and repletion of education. "School apply the whisky money, which now goes to higher education, in reduction Council, "have invaded the domain of of the rates. I trust that the public higher education." Invaded! As if they spirit of the local authorities will have had some aggressive jingo educational so far developed their schemes of tendency! What has actuated the School education that an aggressive the whisky money tendency; it has been their zeal to cover cannot be withdrawn. They may withdraw it, but if it is not withdrawn it ground not covered by anything else. In some cases no doubt we have had will only be because they have resisted the pressure which this Bill puts upon that the great danger to this country in overlapping; but I am so convinced still them. Take counties such as Worcestershire and Northumberland, face to face education at present is not overlapping with an extraordinary rate of fourpence to but a hiatus that I am not very much sixpence already. They must levy a new concerned to draw a hard and fast line. rate for elementary education; how is it I would rather run the risk of overpossible that higher education, even if it lapping here and there by giving these is maintained, can progress when it is local authorities a few years to establish handed over to them under these con- a good scheme of higher education than ditions? What should have been done in run the far greater risk of having the Bill I agree nothing should have nothing further done for higher educabeen done to conflict with the ultimate tion than we shall have under this power of one authority-and that a great Bill. In a few years time, if that had central and local authority. But still I been done, you would have made one uniform and harmonious system with would have laid the duty on the County and Borough Councils of reporting as to children to cheap but efficient local an easy passage upwards for clever the provisions in their district for higher schools. If you had made this Bill a education existing now. Secondly, I Bill for secondary education, you could would have laid upon them the duty of easily have added the elementary part. drawing up a scheme to make provision As the Bill is now drawn, you will where provision was necessary, and that secure the elementary part, but you will is everywhere, to meet the requirements of not add the higher to it. VOL. CVII. [FOURTH SERIES.] Boards has not been 2 G |