Irish Salt Butter Industry. MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether in the opinion of the legal advisers of the Crown Irish salt butter containing over 16 per cent. of moisture can legally be sold in England, provided the amount of moisture is declared to the purchaser. the other night; and I should strongly advise the hon. Gentleman to do what he can to enable this Committee to set to work and finish its inquiry before we endeavour to enlarge its scope. MR. HENNIKER HEATON: When will the Committee be appointed? MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am very MR. HANBURY: I am unable to anxious for the appointment of the say what is the view of the legal advisers Committee, but some hon. Gentlemen, of the Crown. In fixing the standard who object to the Committee as being I gave no effect to the point referred too large or the reference to it being to in the Question, and I cannot suppose too limited, are doing their best, as far Parliament intended to set up conditions as I can see, to prevent that. which could be so easily avoided as the hon. Member suggests. MR. GIBSON BOWLES (King's Lynn): Can the right hon. Gentleman. hold out out any prospect of being able to give the House exact information as to this shipping combination? Burren (Clare) Postmastership. MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as represent ing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that the office of postmaster in Burren, County Clare, is still vacant; is going beyond the Question on the and can he explain the cause of the delay in filling up the post. MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The sub-office is not yet vacant. The subpostmistress's resignation will take effect from the 24th instant. Transatlantic Shipping Combination. MR. CHANNING: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, having regard to the wider questions raised by the shipping combination, His Majesty's Government will consider the advisability of withdrawing the Motion for the appointment of a Select Committee on steamship subsidies, with the view to the appointment of a Select Committee to consider all the more important questions affecting the mercantile marine of the United Kingdom, with a reference wide enough to include these questions as well as the question of subsidies. *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That Paper. Church Discipline. MR. BRAND (Cambridgeshire, Wisbech) I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the continuance in the Established Church of England and Wales of disorders which the Archbishops and Bishops have failed to reGovernment Amendment of 10th May, strain, and of the pledge given in the 1899, that ecclesiastical legislation should be undertaken if there was not a speedy restoration of conformity on the part of the clergy to the law of Church and Realm, he is, upon reconsideration, prepared to afford to the Bill to make further provision for enforcing discipline in case of offences committed by clergymen all such facilities and support as may be necessary to pass it into law during the present session. taken as accepting the version of the MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I must not be fact given by the hon. Gentleman. In any case, he will readily recognise that it ment to find time for what cannot be is perfectly impossible for the Governotherwise than a highly controversial private Bill. MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I think it would be far better to allow this Committee to go on with its investigation, and not at the present moment enlarge the scope of its inquiry. I do not think anything would be gained by that. The Administration of Church Funds. Government are investigating what is MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN: I beg to going on now, as I told the House ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the poverty of a section of the clergy, he is prepared, upon reconsideration, to assent either to an Address to His Majesty praying for the appointment of a Royal Commission, or to a Motion for the appointment of a Select Committee of this House, to inquire into and report upon the present administration of the funds of the Established Church of England and Wales, and the necessary measure of re-adjustment of episcopal and other ecclesiastical incomes, and methods of securing such re-adjust ment. MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I do not at all deny the importance of the Question of the hon. Gentleman, but I cannot give any other answer than the one I have already given to a similar Question from him a few weeks ago.† Bishopric of Southwark Bill. COLONEL STOPFORD-SACKVILLE (Northants, N.): I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that a Bill constituting a Bishopric of Southwark has twice passed the House of Lords with the approval of His Majesty's Government, he is now prepared to afford to the Bill such facilities and support as may be necessary to pass it into law during the present year. MR. A. J. BALFOUR: My hon. and gallant friend will recognise that it is somewhat premature in the present position of the session to make any statement with regard to privileges for private Members' Bills, however uncontroversial they may be. Increase of Public Expenditure. MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL (Oldham): I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether his attention has been called to the Notice of Motion stand ing on the Order Book for a Select Committee to consider and report whether the present method of controlling and allocating expenditure in and between the various public Departments is the best that can be devised; and what countenance the Government will give to such Motion. have been considering the statistics of the growth of expenditure since 18941895; and I have come to the conclusion, as I think my hon. friend would come to the conclusion if he looked at the figures, that the growth of expenditure depends, not upon what I but on policy. It is not because there is may call extravagance, any laxity in the supervision of expenditure, but because it has seemed to the House of Commons and to the Government that certain kinds of expenditure should be undertaken. For instance, my hon. friend will find that by far the largest items of growth are the Army and the Navy. If I remember rightly, the next largest growth is the Education Department, and there is also a large growth in the Post Office Department, directly due, of course, to the pressure put by the House of Commons, and by the results of the various Commissions investigating the remuneration of Post Office employees. MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN (Kilkenny): There has also been a large growth of profit in the Post Office. MR. A. J. BALFOUR: There is besides that, no doubt, a large growth, or at all events a considerable growth, not large in comparison with the items I have colonial and foreign policy; but this just mentioned, in connection with again is directly due to policy which do not think, under these circumstances, could not be decided by a Committee. I that any good would result from the appointment of a Committee to consider the interchange of expenditure between different Departments. That is a responsibility which can only rest, as it seems to me, with the Treasury, and on which it would be impossible for the Government of the day to accept the advice of any Committee, however constituted. For these reasons, though I sympathise with the object my hon. friend has in view, I do not think any good would be gained by acceding to his request. MR. ALFRED DAVIES: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since 1894 the ordinary expenses of Government have increased by about £25,000,000 per annum ? MR. A. J. BALFOUR: If the hon. Gentleman wants to ask me about figures, perhaps he will give me notice. The growth is very large, no doubt. I think perhaps it is as large as that. MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Will my right hon. friend endeavour to secure to the House the opportunity of discussing the general question of expenditure, on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill, before any Amendment dealing with any special tax comes on ? MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No, Sir. I really do not see precisely what is to be gained by such a discussion. We are all agreed that the growth of expenditure is very serious. There is no difference of opinion as to that on either side of the House. How can you discuss on the Finance Bill whether less ought to be spent on the Navy or on the Army, or on the Pacific cable or the Uganda railway? Those are questions which cannot with advantage, it seems to me, be discussed upon such an occasion as the Second Reading of the Finance Bill; and, if we are merely to deal in generalities as to the danger of the growth of expenditure, I am afraid our discussions can be only vague and somewhat barren. MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Do I understand my right hon. friend to infer that nothing whatever can be done in this matter? MR. A. J. BALFOUR: If my hon. friend asks me if I think the expenditure can be diminished, I do not see my way to doing it unless you are prepared to reverse the policy which you have deliberately accepted as regards the great spending Departments. MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this expenditure has increased by leaps and bounds since the automatic closuring of debate in Supply? MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No, Sir. Physical Training in Elementary Schools. MR. PRIESTLEY (Grantham): I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if His Majesty's Government will consider the appointment of a Royal Commission for England and Wales, similar to the one recently appointed for Scotland, to inquire into the question of the physical training of children in all public eleinentary schools. MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have not yet had any opportunity of consulting the authorities of the English Education Department, but, as at present advised, it seems to me it would be wise, in the first place, to await the results of the Commission now inquiring into this very subject in Scotland-an inquiry which, if not absolutely conclusive as regards England, must certainly throw a great deal of light on the English questionand, in the second place, to await the results of the discussion on the Education Bill now before the House. Business of the House. MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.): I wish to ask the First Lord a question as to the making up of the Notice Paper under the new Rules. It will be generally agreed that it would be greatly to the convenience of hon. Members if the intentions of the Government with regard to the afternoon and evening sittings were always set forth on the Notice Paper.. Looking at the Paper today it will be seen the first Order for the evening sitting is the Patent Law Amendment Bill.. Cannot the Paper be so drawn as to show the business the Government intend to take? This is important in view of the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the other night that these broken sittings would occasionally enable the Government to bring on business of secondary importance. MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I will consider whether the hon. Gentleman's suggestion can be carried out. I entirely agree that it is for the convenience of hon. Members that they should know as clearly as possible what will be taken at the evening sitting, but of course it will be impossible for the Government to bind themselves, because what happens at the evening sitting may depend in many cases on what happens at the morning sitting. But I understand that the hon. Gentleman is prepared to accept a notice indicating that there is some doubt about the matter, and I will see whether something of the nature suggested can not be adopted. 46 MR. DILLON: The Orders of the Day at the evening sitting are preceded now on the Order Paper by the heading Subject to alterations consequent on the afternoon sitting." Cannot the right hon. Gentleman retain that heading? NEW BILLS. FALSE CHARACTERS BILL. "For the better prevention of giving False Characters to Servants and of offences connected therewith," presented by Mr. Herbert Robertson, under Standing Order 31; supported by Mr. Bousfield; to be read a second time on Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 186.] YARDLEY CHARITY BILL. Commissioners for the management of the "To confirm a scheme of the Charity charity or foundation called the Yardley Charity Estates, in the parish of Yardley, in the county of Worcester," presented by Mr. Austen Chamberlain, under Standing Order 31; supported by Mr. Griffith Boscawen, Mr. J. W. Wilson, Colonel Long, and Mr. Norman; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 187.] SOLICITORS (SCOTLAND) BILL. "To amend the Law relating to Solicitors in Scotland," presented by Mr. Ure, under Standing Order 31; supported by Mr. Renshaw and Mr. Crombie; to be read a second time upon Monday, 2nd June, and to be printed. [Bill 188.] EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) [SECOND READING.] Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time." (2.55.) MR. BRYCE (Aberdeen, S): I rise to discharge an unwelcome task. For many years past all the friends of education have recognised the great need there was of improving the elementary instruction in our schools, and of providing the secondary instruction which is now so largely wanted. On this side, I can say with confidence, there has been, and there is, a universal and hearty wish to re-organise the schools, and to spend more money upon them, if we are sure that that money will be usefully spent. The object is one on which there exists so much agreement that, if the Government had omitted from this measure one element of political, or rather of ecclesiastical, | Treasury with three recommendations; controversy, I believe it might have it was recommended as constituting one been attained. But the Bill before us authority for all kinds of education, as not only introduces that controversial securing educational improvement, and element, but contains so many provisions as effecting a final settlement of a highly which are objectionable on other controversial question. I propose to grounds, that I cannot regard it as examine it in those three aspects. even an instalment of reform. If the There is in the expression" one authofaults of the Bill were confined to one or rity" something that is attractive prima two points, it might be possible for us to farie; a single authority for all kinds reserve our opposition for the Committee of education naturally appears to be a stage, or we might, instead of moving right method. If we were beginning to the rejection of the Bill, have moved an create a system de novo, we should cerAmendment to the Second Reading tainly create a single authority; we which would have confined atten- have one, and are glad to have one, tion and debate to those few points, in Scotland. But this phrase, “one omitting others as of less conse- authority," has become a sort of catchquence. But the faults of the Bill word, and it is used in a very different are numerous, they lie in the essence of sense by different sets of persons. It the Bill, and we have little hope that has been commonly used, certainly on they are faults which the Government this side of the House, to describe what will consent to remove. When we look is called an ad hoc authority; and, like so to the previous Bills which the Govern- many catchwords, it saves people the ment have produced since 1895, I con- trouble of thinking and of examining in fess this seems to be by far the most each case what it actually covers. I re-actionary of them; and when we want to make a few remarks on this watch the whole course of their phrase, "one authority." In the first educational policy, as it has been place, you may buy your one authority, seen in their modifications of as you are going to buy it here, by the the Code, and in their constant extinction of bodies which have been at efforts to secure preferential benefits for work for thirty years, and which, by univoluntary schools, I can only come to versal agreement and the admission of the conclusion that the very features in Ministers themselves, have done admirthis Bill which we deem the worst are able work for the education of the country. the features to which the Government With the extinction of the School Boards attach most importance. Therefore, I there goes the extinction of the right of can entertain very little hope that the women to sit as elected representatives. Government will be disposed to alter The School Boards have been the most them. active and potent force that we have had in our education since 1870. course measure. That being so there is no open to us except to oppose the Bill as a whole. In doing so I shall for myself endeavour to avoid anything that can introduce elements of irritation, and I shall dwell more largely on the educational than on the ecclesiastical defects of the I must ask the indulgence of the House in respect of the extreme dryness and technicality of this subject, for our legislation has made education, although it is one of the most important, one of the most unattractive subjects which can engage the attention of Parliament. It is possible that I may sometimes mistake the meaning of the Bill, because it is in many places obscure, and in some others even self-contradictory. It was introduced by the First Lord of the Mr. Bryce, They are accused of having trespassed on the field of secondary education; but why did they do so? It was because there was a void which no one else appeared to fill. They did it with the approval of successive Education Ministers, and they have done it to the enormous benefit of the masses of the people. I have a second observation to make on the single authority. You may overload your single authority. School Board work in our large boroughs is work which is fully sufficient to employ all the spare time of the unpaid citizen who gives himself to it. So also is the work of the Borough Councils, and, as anybody knows, it is found already to be so heavy that |