MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It has been Debate on proposed New Standing Order

Provided that the days occupied by Army, and the Revenue Departments. the consideration of Estimates supple- be granted for the services defined in mentary to those of a previous session those Estimates. or of any Vote of Credit, or of Votes for Supplementary or Additional Estimates presented by the Government for War Expenditure, or for any new service not included in the ordinary Estimates for the year, shall not be included in the computation of the twenty days aforesaid.

Provided also that, on Motion made after Notice, to be decided without Amendment or Debate, additional time, not exceeding three days, may be allotted for the purposes purposes aforesaid,

either before or after the 5th of August.

On a day so allotted, no business other than the business of Supply, shall be taken before midnight, and no business in Committee or proceedings on Report of Supply shall be taken after midnight, whether a general Order for the suspension of the Twelve o'clock Rule is in force or not, unless the House otherwise order on the Motion of a Minister of the Crown, moved at the commencement of Public Business, to be decided without Amendment or Debate.

At Ten of the clock on the last allotted day, the Speaker shall forthwith. put every Question necessary to dispose of the report of the Resolution then under consideration, and shall then forthwith put, with respect to each class of the Civil Service Estimates, the Question, That the House doth agree with the Committee in all the outstandthat class, and shall then put a likeing Resolutions reported in respect of question with respect to all the Resolutions outstanding in the Estimates for the Navy, the Army, the Revenue Departments, and other outstanding Resolutions severally.

On the days appointed for concluding the business of Supply, the consideration of that business shall not be anticipated by a Motion of Adjournment, and no dilatory Motion shall be moved on proceedings for that business.

Any additional Estimate for any new service or matter not included in the original Estimates for the year, shall be submitted for consideration in the Committee of Supply on some day not later than Two days before the Committee is closed.

For the purposes of this Order two Fridays shall be deemed equivalent to a single day of two Sittings.-(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)

Question, as amended, again proposed.

Of the days so allotted, not more than one day in Committee shall be allotted to any Vote on Account, and not more than one sitting to the Report of that Vote. At midnight on the close of the day on which the Committee on that Vote is taken, and at the close of the sitting on which the Report of that Vote is taken, the Chairman of Com-amptonshire, E.): I wish, Sir, to ask if mittees or the Speaker, as the case may be, shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Vote or the Report.

At Ten of the clock on the last day but one of the days so allotted the Chairman shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Vote then under consideration, and shall then forthwith put the question with respect to each class of the Civil Service Estimates that the total amount of the Votes outstanding in that class be granted for the services. defined in the class, and shall in like manner put severally the Questions that the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in the Estimates for the Navy, the

(4.30.) MR. CHANNING (North

the Amendment which stands in my name would, if now submitted, exclude other Amendments on the Paper referring to an earlier part of the Rule.

*MR. SPEAKER: I have ruled the other Amendments referred to out of order.

to rule both the Amendments of the hon. Member for Dundee and that which stands in my name on the Paper to be out of order?

*MR. SPEAKER: Yes.

*MR. SPEAKER: The House had already decided that no debate on a Vote on Account should go beyond the one day, and in view of that decision I held that the question ought not to be again raised.

amount of time to be given to Supply His theory was that during the session.

neither the Leader of the House nor the responsible Minister intervened with sufficient frequency in the conduct of business. He felt they ought to use more frequently their friendly and con

MR. CHAPLIN: May I ask on what ciliatory powers of closure, which sometimes were the more effective than ground? actual closure itself. He did not sugbe fussy or gest that there should dictatorial interference on their part, but he would recommend a business-like intervention suggesting that, after there had been a reasonable amount of discussion, the time had arrived for taking a division. He thought that would secure much better progress of business. He had fresh in his recollection the scene which occurred on the occasion of the first automatic closure in 1887, on the Criminal Law Amendment Bill. That seemed to him to be a most disastrous spectacle. He had previously urged his hon. friends from Ireland not to prolong the discussion so as to bring about that automatic guillotine, and he was disgusted with the scene which followed. He was doubly disgusted with the scenes which occurred on the Home Rule Bill

MR. CHANNING said that the object of the Amendment which he now had to move was to eliminate from the Rule the proposal for the automatic or guillotine closure of Votes in Supply. In moving it he wished to guard if possible the rights of other Members who might desire to move Amendments to subsequent words, and he therefore hoped that the Speaker, in putting the Question from the Chair, would do so in such a manner as not to exclude such Amendments.

*MR. SPEAKER: In regard to what the hon. Member has just said, I will take the course which he suggests, but I am bound to say that his Amendment raises almost the same question as that which was discussed last year when the system was introduced of voting on Classes of Supply. In view of that, I would suggest that there is no necessity for prolonged debate.

MR. CHANNING said he had no desire to prolong the debate, and he therefore would not enter into any lengthy argument with regard to this most important portion of the Rule. Still, he thought the argument ought to be clearly stated to the House once more, before sanction was given to that particular form of procedure. His view of the conduct of business in Supply had always been the same. He had supported the Government in assigning a given quantity of time to Supply, and he had always held that the period allotted was adequate. Still, having watched the conditions under which Supply was discussed, he had come to the conclusion that it would be far better if a more elastic method were adopted in determining the total

a

of 1893, and when the right hon. Gentle-
man first introduced this Rule as
sessional Order, in 1896, he said he would
never again support a Government in
the automatic closure of a
proposing
Bill. He thought the right hon. Gentle-
man, and other Members of the House,
had frequently pointed out that the
only way in which they could secure
the
use of the time allotted to
proper
Supply was by the appointment of some
representative body which should be
able to determine questions of this kind,
and which would have the practical
assent of all sections of the House. He
was sure the right hon. Gentleman must
see it was an odious and undesirable form
of procedure which this Rule suggested,
and that it would be better to revert to
the old plan of trying to carry out the
business in Supply by some proper dis-
tribution of the time, and by the constant
interposition of Ministers of the Crown,
and of the Leaders of the Opposition,
with a view to bringing about
reasonably early termination of dis-
cussion, so that all substantial issues
could be raised in the course of a session

a

before they arrived at anything like the 5th of August, when the automatic closure was to come in force.

Amendment proposed

"In line 35, to leave out from the word

best to induce the House to arrange its time for discussing these new Rules, and I have failed. My powers of persuasion have proved utterly inadequate, and it has been evident that they have had little or no good effect. I do not

Report' to the word 'On' in line 53."-(Mr. say that if representatives of various Channing.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'At Ten of the clock on the last day but one of the days so allotted the Chairman shall forthwith put every question necessary to dispose of the' stand part of the Question.'

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY

(Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): I take it that we are not now discussing whether the number of days allotted to Supply shall be further limited, for it has been decided by the House that twenty-three days shall be the whole period set apart for that purpose. The only question we have before us is the precise machinery by which that principle, already affirmed by the House, is to be carried into effect. I will not, therefore, repeat the arguments which have already been advanced on this point. I take it the hon. Gentleman agrees with the Government that we have allotted a sufficient time to Supply.

sections met round a table, and it was understood that not more than twentythree days were to be given to Supply, they might not very likely come to a common-sense understanding. But I It do not know that they would. appears to me in any case that such an arrangement would be liable to break down on the smallest provocation, and at the will of the smallest body of recalcitrant Members. And, therefore, it seems to me that the hon. Gentleman's method is doomed failure. Until some alternative proposals are put forward for bringing Supply to an end, it seems to me that the plan before the House needs very

little defence.

to

(4.43.) MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.) said he thought the right hon. Gentleman had treated the Amendment rather hardly. It was not so illogical as he seemed to suggest. What had been resolved was that not more than twenty days should be allotted before the 5th of August. He attached a great deal of importance to the AmendMR. CHANNING: Yes, in an average ment. The right hon. Gentleman had year.

argued that the Supply Rule would be no use unless the automatic closure on MR. A. J. BALFOUR: But he pro- the last two days was continued, but poses to cut out certain words from our that was not his (Mr. Lough's) opinion. Rule-words which are intended to give He, on the contrary, considered that the If retention of the automatic closure at effect to the Government views. those words are cut out, what is to the end destroyed the Rule and reduced put in their place? The hon. Member the whole proceedings of Supply to a suggested, so far as I heard, nothing farce. The Rule provided that proper except that the Leader of the House arrangements should be made for the a certain should come down every Thursday, and discussion of Supply; that exercise his powers of persuasion, for time should be allotted to it-that the whatever they may be worth, at short House should give to Supply one day in intervals, to induce the House to better each week, and get what discussion they allocate its time to the different subjects could out of it. That was a great arrangeunder discussion. That would be all ment to make, but unfortunately the very well if it were likely to succeed right hon. Gentleman was not content in practice, but it is quite evident that with that. The right hon. Gentleman efforts by the Leader of the House to persuade hon. Members to take a par- wanted to make his position sure, and ticular course can be of little service. therefore had put in that at ten of the For instance, I have been doing my clock this automatic guillotine should Mr. Channing.