On private business had a desire to do $0. For instance, on the Paper of that day, the London and India Docks Bill was down for consideration. He looked into the question early in the afternoon, and came to the conclusion that his duty might demand a speech from him on the subject. But when the right hon. Gentleman opposite got up, and sold the pass by undertaking that the Procedure Rules should be concluded by dinner-time the next day, he thought the East India Docks might take care of themselves. But supposing the pass had not been sold, was he to be restricted to ten minutes, during which time it was confessedly impossible to convince the House, even upon the question of the London and India Docks Bill? That would put an end to the whole object for which the House of Commons existed, viz., for the purposes of debate and the informing of the public mind.

the attention and courtesy which the
hon. and gallant Member once showed
to one of their respected colleagues who
had now gone to his account.
He was
extremely sorry that upon this occasion
his Irish friends could not support his
proposal.

MR. SYDNEY BUXTON said it was quite clear, after what had occurred, that the proposal of the hon. Member was too stringent, and if he would add to his Amendment the words, "Except by leave of the House," he would support him.

MAJOR RASCH said he would accept the words suggested by the hon. Member for Poplar.

Amendment amended

except by leave of the House.'”—(Mr. Sydney "By adding, at the end thereof, the words Buxton.)

(10.33.) Question put, "That those words, as amended, be there added." The House divided:-Ayes, 94; Noes, (Division List No. 161.)

(10.30.) MR. POWER (Waterford, E.) said he thought any views corning from the hon. and gallant Member opposite were entitled to the consideration of Irish Members. He could not forget 270.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)
Allan, William (Gateshead)
Allen, Charles P.(Glouc.,Stroud
Ashton, Thomas Gair
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.
Bill, Charles

Bolton, Thomas Dolling
Buxton, Sydney Charles
Caine, William Sproston
Channing, Francis Allston
Clive, Captain Percy A.
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole
Craig, Robert Hunter
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Dorington, Sir John Edward
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)
Duncan, J. Hastings
Edwards, Frank

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan.
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)
Furness, Sir Christopher
Goddard, Daniel Ford
Gore, HnG. R.C.Ormsby-(Salop
Grant, Corrie

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashfo'd
Helme, Norval Watson
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.
Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

AYES.

Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.
Holland, William Henry
Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)
Hoult, Joseph

Hudson, George Bickersteth
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.
Jacoby, James Alfred
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Kinloch, Sir JohnGeorge Smyth
Lee, ArthurH(Hants, Fareham
Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Leese, SirJoseph F. (Accrington
Leng, Sir John

Lewis, John Herbert

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)
M'Calmont, Cɔl. J. (Antrim, E.
Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Morgan.J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Moss, Samuel

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath
Nolan, Col. John P. (Galwav, N.
Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Nussey, Thomas Willans
Parkes, Ebenezer
Partington, Oswald

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)
Peel, Hn. Wm Robert Wellesley
Pirie, Duncan V.
Plummer, Walter R.
Rankin, Sir James
Reid, James (Greenock)
Richards, Henry Charles
Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Schwann, Charles E.
Smith,H.C. (N'th'mb. Tyneside
Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Soares, Ernest J.
Stock, James Henry
Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Sullivan, Donal
Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.
Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Wallace, Robert
Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Warr, Augustus Frederick
Weir, James Galloway
Welby,SirCharles G. E. (Notts.
Whiteley, George (York, W. R.
Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.
Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B Stuart-
Younger, William

TELLERS FOR THE AYES--Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlingt'n Major Rasch and Mr. Renwick.

Spear, John Ward
Spencer, Rt. HnC. R (Northants
Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)
Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Thornton, Percy M.
Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Tritton, Charles Ernest
Valentia, Viscount
Walker, Col. William Hall
Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Wanklyn, James Leslie
Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
White, George (Norfolk)
White, Patrick (Meath,North)
Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne

Main Question, as amended, put and of the clock it appears that forty Mem

*MR. BLAKE said it was very important that the effect of the words "it appears that forty Members are not present" should be made plain. Under the existing Rule as just interpreted by Mr. Speaker, the division would not be inoperative. This surely could not be intended. He asked what the view of the Government was on this matter.

would there and then have stood adjourned, thedivision having no existence.† If the Rules of the House of Commons were the same on that point as those of the other House, the words of the Amendment were unnecessary.

*MR. SPEAKER: Since I have been in Parliament and my experience has been much shorter than that of a great many hon. Members-I have never known a case of fewer than forty Members voting. I did not therefore speak from any personal experience, and I am bound to say that I find there are several hon. Members of much longer standing than myself who are of a different opinion from that which has been expressed.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The hon. Member has asked the opinion of the Government on this subject, and I have no difficulty in giving it. Mr. Speaker has ruled that a division in which less than forty Members take part is still an effective division. I took a different view, no doubt quite erroneously. Let the House observe the absurdity of the existing practice. The existing practice. is that the House is competent, when less than forty Members are present, to come to a decision, but that it is not competent to do any other business. Under the existing practice, as just laid down by Mr. Speaker, supposing you had a Motion of a most important character- SIR M. HICKS BEACH: As the oldest let each Member invent for himself what Member of the House, perhaps I may be he thinks a most important Motion and allowed to say that I do not remember supposing that there are thirty-nine a single instance in which a question Members present, and a majority voted was decided by less than forty votes. for the Motion, then I suppose that Motion would be carried, but in the act

MR. TOMLINSON (Preston) said that he remembered a case of a division in which less than forty Members took part. In that case the Speaker immediately declared the House to stand adjourned.

*MR. SPEAKER : In this matter

of carrying it the House would declare I accept the authority of the Father of itself incompetent to deal with a turn- the House as greater than that of the pike road. That is not rational or Speaker, and I have no doubt he is logical, and so, the Amendment being correct. clearly necessary, I will accept it.

(11.0.) Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR said that if the practice of the House were the same as the other House, a division which revealed less than a quorum would result in the adjournment of the House. In that case the Amendment would not be necessary. Last session there was a measure in which he took special interest, namely, the Factory Bill, and when it was before the other Chamber some noble Lords objected to it. There was some chance of a division being called, but the Lord Chancellor got up and called attention to the fact that there were only thirty eight peers present. If a division had been called, it would have revealed the fact that there was not a quorum present, and the House

*MR. HERBERT ROBERTSON said that he understood the Speaker now to rule that all divisions in which less than forty members took part were in operation. That being the case, such a division between 9 and 10 o'clock would be of no effect, and it was unnecessary to add any words, and he therefore asked leave to withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
(11.8.) Main Question put.

The House of Lords Standing Order (March 22nd, 1889) is :- "If, on a division upon any stage of a Bill, it shall appear that thirty Lords are not present in the House, the Lord Speaker shall declare the question not decided, but the debate thereon adjourned to the next sitting of the House."-[Ed.]

529

New Procedure

{1 MAY 1902}

The House divided:-Ayes, 228; Noes, | 137. (Division List No. 162.)

Acland-Hood, Capt. SirAlex. F.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel
Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden
Arkwright, John Stanhope
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.
Arrol, Sir William
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John
Bain, Colonel James Robert
Balcarres, Lord

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)
Balfour, RtHnGerald W(Leeds
Banbury, Frederick George
Beach, RtHuSir Michael Hicks
Beresford, Lord Charles Wm.
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.
Bignold, Arthur
Bigwood, James
Bill, Charles

Blundell, Colonel Henry
Bond, Edward
Bowles, Capt. H.F. (Middlesex
Brassey, Albert

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu
Brotherton, Edward Allen
Brymer, William Ernest
Bull, William James
Bullard, Sir Harry
Butcher, John George
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.
Cavendish, V.C. W (Derbyshire
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)
Chamberlain, Rt Hon. J. (Birm.
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc.
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry
Chapman, Edward
Charrington, Spencer
Churchill, Winston Spencer
Clare, Octavius Leigh
Clive, Captain Percy A.
Coghill, Douglas Harry
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)
Cranborne, Viscount
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)
Crossley, Sir Savile
Dalkeith, Earl of
Dalrymple, Sir Charles
Davenport, William Bromley-
Denny, Colonel
Dewar,T.R(TrH'mlets,S.Geo.
Dickson, Charles Scott
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-
Dorington, Sir John Edward
Doughty, George
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Doxford. Sir William Theodore
Duke, Henry Edward
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin
Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward
Fergusson, RtHn. SirJ. (Manc'r

AYES.

| Finch, George H.

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Fisher, William Hayes
Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon
Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Flower, Ernest

Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick,S.W
Galloway, William Johnson
Gardner, Ernest
Garfit, William
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick
Gordon, Hn. J. E(Elgin & Nairn
Gore, HnG.R.C.Ormsby-(Salop
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon
Goschen, Hon. George Joachim
Graham, Henry Robert
Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Green, Walford D. (Wed'nsbury
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury
Gretton, John

Hall, Edward Marshall
Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.
Hamilton, RtHnLord G. (Mid'x
Hamilton, Marq.of (L'nd'derry
Hanbury, Rt. Hon Robert Wm.
Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd
Hare, Thomas Leigh

Harris, Frederick Leverton
Hay, Hon. Claude George
Heath, James (Staffords. Ñ. W.)
Henderson, Alexander
Higginbottom, S. W.
Hoare, Sir Samuel
Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.
Hope,J. F. (Sheffi'ld, Brightside
Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Hoult, Joseph

Houston, Robert Paterson
Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham
Hudson, George Bickersteth
Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies
Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Johnston, William (Belfast)
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.
Keswick, William
King, Sir Henry Seymour
Knowles, Lees

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Lawson, John Grant
Lee, ArthurH(Hants, Fareham.
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Leveson-Gower, Fredk. Ñ. S.
Lockwood, Lt. Col. A. R.
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol,S)
Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)
Lucas, ReginaldJ. (Portsmouth
Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison
Macdona, John Cumming
MacIver, David (Liverpool)
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
M Calmont, Col.J. (Antrim, E.)
M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)
Majendie, James A. H.
Malcolm, Ian

Melville, Beresford Valentine
Milner,Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.
Mitchell, William
Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants)
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire
Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh.
Morrell, George Herbert
Morrison, James Archibald
Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford
Mount, William Arthur
Murray,RtHnA. Graham (Bute
Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Newdigate, Francis Alexander
Nicholson, William Graham
Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Parkes, Ebenezer
Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington)
Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley
Pemberton, John S. G.
Pilkington, Lt. Col. Richard
Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Plummer, Walter R.
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Pretyman, Ernest George
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Randles, John S.
| Rankin, Sir James
Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Ratcliff, R. F.
Reid, James (Greenock)
Renwick, George
Richards, Henry Charles
Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge
Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Robinson, Brooke
Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Ropner, Colonel Robert
Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Royds, Clement Molyneux
Russell, T. W.
Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Seton-Karr, Henry
Sharpe, William Edward T.
Simeon, Sir Barrington
Smith, HC(North'mb.Tyneside
Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.
Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Spear, John Ward
Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)
Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Stock, James Henry
Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Talbot,RtHnJ. G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Thornton, Percy M.
Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Valentia, Viscount
Tritton, Charles Ernest
Walker, Col. William Hall