But if it be true that the general view tonight and Thursday that that could of the House is that it would rather be done. He should have thought that risk the new Standing Order about there was nothing very contentious in Questions, without the final paragraph, the Rule relating to the adjournment taking it on its merits, and amending of the House, and if the House would it afterwards, if it be found, as I greatly give him that Rule, he should be prefear it will be found, that some very pared to postpone the important question interesting Questions will have to be of private business and the remaining answered in writing, instead of verbally Rules in the block until Thursday. Of -that is the worst thing that can course, if it were understood that they happen-if that is the view of the House, would be allowed to take all the remainand I rather gather it is, I am quite ing Rules in the block on Thursday, he ready to accept it, and to defer until should not be prepared to raise any such time as we may be able to see the objection to the suggestion of the hon. new Rule at work the contrivance of Member. any machinery dealing with the evils which may arise. I certainly do not wish to put myself in opposition to the general sense of the House.

Question put and negatived.

Question proposed-"That the Amendment, as amended, be added to the Standing Order."

(12.58.) MR. DILLON said he desired to make a suggestion to the Leader of the House. There was a desire to have a general discussion on the Rule, but after the way they had been met he thought the least they might do was to let the right hon. Gentleman have the Rule without further discussion. He ventured to suggest that as the hour was late, and as they were in an agreeable mood all round, the right hon. Gentleman might make a concession to them, namely, that, having foregone their right to discuss the Rule, they should now be allowed to go home to bed.

MR. BRYCE said he assumed that it would not be worth while at such a late hour to enter on a new subject which must give rise to some discussion. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would fall in with the general convenience of the House.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR said he did not in the least wish to unnecessarily prolong the discussion. He himself had had hard work enough for one night, but it was really necessary that the remaining Rules in the block should be finished on Thursday, and it was only by a distribution of the work between Mr. A. J. Balfour.

MR. CHAPLIN said he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not press the question of the Rule relating to the adjournment of the House tonight. It was one of the most important of all the Rules. The sitting now promised to end under very pleasant circumstances, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not press the matter.

MR. GIBSON BOWLES said he certainly could say a great deal on the general question of the Rule relating to Questions which was now before the House. He thought, further, that the Rule with reference to the adjournment of the House was one which would lead to very considerable discussion, and that it would be very inconvenient to begin it tonight. The right hon Gentleman and the House had both been very conciliatory. The House had not hindered but had aided the right hon. Gentleman, and he thought Members might now be allowed to go home to bed.

MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford) said he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would agree to the suggestion of his hon. friend. His hon. friend's sugg stion was that if they gave up all discussion on the new Rule about Questions as a whole, a right which they could exercise with the greatest possible ease, and allow the Rule to be passed, the right hon. Gentleman should then agree to adjourn. It must be manifest to the right hon. Gentleman, with his long experience of such occasions, that it would be impossible for the House to enter with any advantage on the discussion of a new subject. If the right hon. Gentleman stood firm, and would

not agree, it would mean that they would go on for a considerable time discussing the Rule, then the right hon. Gentleman would move the closure, and the sitting, which appeared to be about to end in good humour all round, would end in a certain amount of irritation, which certainly would not facilitate the progress of the remaining Rules on Thursday. He would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that it would be well, from his own point of view, to agree to the proposal of his hon. friend.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR said he could assure the House, whatever might happen, that he was very anxious to avoid a contest that night. He hoped it would be understood that if they adjourned it would be on the understanding that another full and prolonged day's discussion would be enough for the remainder of the Rules in the block.

MR. JOHN REDMOND said that there must be no misunderstanding in the matter. As far as he was concerned, the suggestion he was supporting did not include any undertaking whatever that one more night would be sufficient.

not come immediately, but in the course of time-possibly a long time; he had thought that the House would discover the mistake it had made in the course of a session or of two or three sessions; but he never anticipated that, within a few hours of his warning being uttered against the baneful effect of the Rule, the First Lord of the Treasury himself would have justified the very worst anticipations he felt. They did not know anything about the authorship of these Rules. In future years their authorship would be as much contested. as had been the authorship of the Letters of Junius. In future years volumes would be written as to the paternity of the Rules before the House which no one would now acknowledge. He repeated what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Sleaford Division had said, that the ancient Rules of the House were the result of thought, deliberation, and observation; whereas the new Rules bore upon their surface palpably every sign of haste and rashness and ignorance of their probable effect. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman as to the rash and inconsiderate spirit in which the Rules were proposed. He had endeavoured in a somewhat MR. T. P. O'CONNOR said if the right impatient House an hour ago to bring hon. Gentleman desired to continue the home to hon. Members the fact that the labours of the evening, though he him- effect of the Rule before the House self was as anxious as anybody else in would be that on only one day out of the House to retire to bed, he was quite the five days in the week would there willing to stop up for any length of time be any serious and real Questions. He the House considered necessary for the had proved by an incontestable chain of discharge of its business. He was quite reasoning that, owing to the congestion of willing, as some of his hon. friends were Questions on the Paper on Monday, twoalso, to abandon their right-he had thirds of the Questions would remain almost said to shirk their duty-of dis- unanswered orally, and would have to cussing the Rule as amended, but if the be answered in writing. He had right hon. Gentleman-not, he thought, accepted the confident statement of the from his own desire, but the First Lord of the Treasury that 300 result of the absurd pressure exer- Questions could be asked in a week cised on him by his friends-thought as founded on fact, and on a deliberate it necessary to continue the business, consideration of the Rule; but he found then he himself would yield to a sense of he had been mistaken. He found that duty and express his opinion with regard it was a very unwise thing to allow his to the Rule as amended. He initiated judgment to be swept away by the promises and the discussion on the main part of the seductive optimistic Rule that evening by expressing the statements of a Minister in a difficulty, opinion that the Rule would seriously who was trying to get an absurd interfere with one of the most valuable proposal through the House of Commons. traditions and privileges of the House of The 300 Questions a week had disCommons. He was under the delusion, appeared into thin air; they had no however, that those evil results would longer any substantial existence. On

as

*MR. SPEAKER: I think a good many of the observations of the hon. Member are not relevant to the question.

Thursdays they would probably have the answers to Questions might as well about half a dozen Questions, but on be buried in the cellars of the House as Mondays Pelion would be piled on Ossa, put on the Order Paper. What was and they would have a number of the envy and admiration of all other Questions impossible to get through countries in the world in connection in the time at their disposal. with the House of Commons? It was The First Lord of the Treasury more the free and democratic spirit which than once endeavoured to impress on rendered Question-time possible, the the House the absolutely absurd proposi- power which its Members possessed of tion that there was no difference between placing Ministers under cross-examinaan oral and a written answer to a tion. Was it to be supposed that a Question. If there was any man who Moderate Republican or Monarchist in should know the absurdity of that France was envious of the House of contention, it was the right hon. Gentle Commons because of its Bills or because man himself. What were the facts? of its oratory? [An HON. MEMBER : Oh, After a session was ended, when the oh!} As long as the Chair considered right hon. Gentleman was reduced to a he was in order, and he had an state of jaded limpness, two or three argument to advance which commended weeks had not elapsed before he was itself to his poor intelligence, he would perambulating over the platforms of continue. the country. Why? He could have written a letter, but that would not suffice. People wanted to see the living human being, to hear the living human voice, in order to bring home to them the principles of the political Party to MR. T. P. O'CONNOR said he was which they belonged. They would all sorry his arguments did not commend find it much easier if they had not to themselves to the Chair, but as long as talk at all. If he had to make a choice he was within the Rules of order, he of an occupation, he certainly would not expected hon. Members opposite would be making speeches at ten minutes past preserve the canons of tolerant discussion. one in the morning in the House of As a matter of fact, the only thing which Commons. But the intolerable and had distinguished the House of Commons irritable voice of conscience compelled from other legislatures was Questionhim. [An HON. MEMBER laughed.] He time. There was no distinction in did not know why hon. Gentlemen other respects between this and other opposite laughed at the word Assemblies. It could not claim to conscience; he attributed to them have a higher class of oratory. The occasionally some conscience, or some attribute which distinguished it was other invaluable, but inconvenient, that the democratic spirit of the country internal machinery. He thought, was reflected in the fact that the however, he had proved by the example humblest Member had the right to of the right hon. Gentleman himself that there was in the mind of every human being a perfectly clear distinction between the written word and the spoken word. Now they were going to have the written word in the House of Commons. A Member would put his Question on the Paper, the answer was to be written down by the Minister, and both were to appear on the Order Paper. That would be the general result. He wondered how many hon. Members read the Order Paper at all. He ventured to say that nine out of every ten Members never looked at the Order Paper until they entered the House, and Mr. T. P. O'Connor.

cross-examine the Executive upon vital
questions of State as well as upon
matters of purely local interest. Now,
in a disastrous hour, the House was
giving up this most precious privilege.
It was contended that that privilege had
been abused. Far be it from him to say
that foolish, petty, or eccentric Questions
had not been asked. No Assembly in the
world was without its eccentric, peculiar,
or unique characters; but such Members
useful in gatherings where
were very often the most interesting and
too apt to endeavour to fashion them-
selves in a common mould. But, what-
ever abuse of Questions there might have
been, he contended that it had not been

men were

sufficient to justify the extraordinary and interested. It was no use saying that revolutionary departure now proposed. the answers to Questions could be printed. The right might have been abused in the past; there might be Members with a colossal capacity and ingenuity .for devising all sorts of finely drawn Questions to confuse Ministers

The evil, so far as it was an evil, was curing itself. Even in the present session-not because of the overhanging shadow of these Rules, but because the Parliament was two years instead of one year old, and young Members were or extract information; but the fact getting rid of the delusion that every night in the House of Commons was an eternity Questions were not so numerous as in last session, and in the ensuing sessions there. would probably be a still further reduction. For the miserable saving of ten or fifteen minutes of Parliamentary time, for the paring down of one or two eccentricities, the House was asked by its Leader, who ought to be the guardian of its liberties and the inheritor of its traditions, to give up one of its highest privileges. He felt that the present was a sinister epoch in the history of the House, and he would not have been discharging his duty had he not given expression to the strong convictions he entertained.

as

(1.25.) MR. GEORGE WHITELEY agreed that the discussion on this Rule had been somewhat lengthy, but it could not be denied that it embodied one of the most important of the proposed alterations. Certain concessions had been made, but, in effect, the Rule remained practically as when introduced, so far its actual working was concerned. One of the most valuable possessions of Members of the House had been the right to question Ministers, and it was the one above all others with which the House ought to hesitate to part. Private Members had not many privileges left to them, and the present proposal would trench still further on the liberties they had enjoyed from time immemorial. How was the House to supervise the internal working of this great Empire if the right of questioning Ministers were curtailed ? was practically impossible for private Members initiate a debate, or to bring forward matters which in their opinion were of importance to the country. In that condition of things, the Questions Members put were a valuable indicator or weather-vane, demonstrating to House how feeling was running in the country, and what were the matters in which the inhabitants were most deeply

It

to

remained that there was a large body
of Members who had exercised the
right honestly and properly, and there
was no reason whatever why those
Members should be penalised in the
manner suggested. ["Divide! Divide!"]
It seemed almost indecent that hon.
Members should be
SO desirous of
hurrying a division on a question
involving matters of such great impor-
tance. It was argued that, in the forty
minutes to be allotted, sixty Questions
might be asked. That was not a fair
average. Members had always reckoned
at the rate of about one Question per
minute. They had been told that it was
easy to cram sixty Questions into a space
of forty minutes. He thought a fair aver-
age, including supplementary Questions,
would be about thirty. He thought
hon. Members were throwing up a stone
which would fall upon their own heads
if they passed this Rule. He was very
much concerned about this glut that
would take place in regard to Questions
on the Monday. They might either
appoint a Committee or leave it to the
clerk, but there was no effective method
of selecting the most important
Questions. They would find on the
Monday some 200 Questions to which
they could not get an answer, and the
result would be that there would be a
feeling of indignation amongst hon.
Members who had been so treated.
Nobody could say that they had suffered
from a want of legislation in the past,
and there was no foundation for this
absurd desire to hurry through the

those matters.

business of the House. He considered that a further fifteen or twenty minutes would more than suffice to deal with all Surely this House was not going, for the sake of some fifteen minutes on four days in the week, to sacrifice any of its rights-in order to the save one hour per week. It appeared him that the House of Commons would be taking a much wiser course if it decided that, rather than give away

to

its right in this way, two or three The other day the right hon. Gentleman days should be added to the session. He the Member for East Wolverhampton put felt that all these Rules were proceeding a Question about the new road from in a wrong spirit, and they were inimical Charing Cross. He thought that was to the rights of the House. He believed a trivial Question, because the right hon. that at the end of one or two years, Gentleman might have put it to the when they had had experience of the Minister in the Lobby or dropped him a new Rules, the House would be glad to note. When they saw great financiers return to the old Rules which had been and statesmen like the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Wolverin force up to the present time. hampton wasting time asking frivolous Questions of that character, he thought he was entitled to claim that the time of the House was wasted even by right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Benches. He was

*(1.35.) MR. MACVEAGH said the House of Commons at present existed for little more than the registration of the decrees of the Government, and he supposed that shortly hon. Members glad the First Lord of the Treasury had opposite would troop into the Lobby seen his way to give up the clause which to vote for sacrificing one of the most in the order of their relative importance. proposed to put Questions on the Paper valuable rights of hon. Members. The First Lord of the Treasury was getting hon. Members of the House to put For a long time it had been a privilege of this Rule through upon the representa Questions and insist upon oral replies tion that it would be possible to put being given in the presence of the Gentleseventy-five Questions to Ministers in men of the Press, with the full blaze of the time allotted. As a matter of fact, public opinion upon them; but now it no session during the past fifteen years was proposed that Ministers might answer gave an average number of Questions them by printing their replies upon the of anything like seventy-five. The Journals of the House. He had had the average never got above sixty-two. Even privilege of watching the proceedings of last year the average did not reach the House from the atmosphere of the seventy-five, for it was only sixty-eight. Press Gallery, and he had often noticed It was useless introducing a Rule of this that when an Irish Question was put, there kind when no necessity had been shown was no chance of obtaining a satisfactory for its introduction. There were 4,792 answer unless the inquiry was followed up Questions in the year 1900, which gave with a number of supplementary Questions. an average of fifty-two Questions per When official answers were read out, as day. In 1899 there were 4,290 Questions, prepared by Members of the English or an average of forty-nine per day. garrison in Ireland, there never was the The figures for 1897 were 4,824 Ques- slightest satisfaction obtained by Memtions, giving a net average of forty-two. bers of the House with respect to that In 1896 the average was forty-seven, country. Under this asterisk arrangein 1895 forty-two, in 1894 thirty- ment, the Chief Secretary would be able nine, in 1893 thirty-six, in 1892 to give answers which would satisfy forty, and in 1890 the average was thirty- himself and his understrappers in three. As a matter of fact, during the Ireland, but which would satisty none past fifteen years the First Lord of the of the Irish people most intimately conTreasury was not able to point to a single nected with the matters referred to. session in which the average number of He did not think it could be said of him Questions had even approached the that he had unduly occupied the time of number he had fixed upon, and which he the House in discussing these new Rules. said could be done with great ease under the Rule he had proposed. He did not He got up a few nights ago to speak, deny that frivolous Questions had been and in a burst of good nature he gave asked. They had an example of this in way to the First Lord. He rose to speak the Questions put by the hon. Member on another Rule, and the First Lord, for North Islington. The hon. Member, without giving him another chance of had told the House that he represented the densest population in England, and there- obliging him, got up and moved the fore he was not surprised if he occasion- closure. That had not helped him much, ally put an exceedingly dense Question. as he knew, and he hoped the right hon. Mr. George Whiteley.