An Asterisk (*) at the commencement of a Speech indicates revision by the Member. {12 MAY 1902} HOUSE OF LORDS. Monday, 12th May, 1902. Business. 1302 MANCHESTER DISTRICT TELEPHONE BOARD BILL [H.L.]. The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES informed the House that the promoters do not intend to proceed further with the proceeded with. Bill; ordered that the Bill be not further LEICESTER CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]. That the Committee had not proceeded Report from the Select Committee, opposition thereto having been withdrawn; with the consideration of the Bill, the read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The orders made on the 13th of February and 25th of April last discharged; and Bill committed. SWANSEA CORPORATION BILL [H.L.] appointing certain Lords the Select ComThe order made on the 1st instant, mittee to consider the Bill, discharged. SOUTH METROPOLITAN GAS BILL. Read 2a; and committed. KENT ELECTRIC POWER BILL, SOUTH WALES ELECTRICAL POWER DISTRIBUTION BILL. Read 2a, and committed. The Com The same were ordered to lie on the mittees to be proposed by the Committee Table. GREAT NORTHERN AND CITY RAIL WAY BILL [H.L.], of Selection. WEARDALE AND SHILDON DISTRICT NORTH-WEST LONDON RAILWAY BILL NORTHUMBERLAND ELECTRIC TRAM [H.L.], GREAT NORTHERN AND STRAND BAKER STREET AND WATERLOO Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Newton be proposed to the House as a Member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Clanwilliam (E. Clanwilliam); read, and agreed to. DEVONPORT CORPORATION (GENERAL POWERS) BILL [H.L.]. The consent of the Prince of Wales signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments. MIDDLESEX COUNTY COUNCIL TRAMWAYS BILL. WAYS BILL [H.L.]. Read 3, and passed, and sent to the Commons. Reported from the Select Committee, GREAT NORTHERN AND STRAND RAILwith Amendments. VOL. CVII. WAY BILL [H.L.], [FOURTH SERIES.] 2Z {LORDS} BAKER STREET AND WATERLOO RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]. Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl Bathurst be proposed to the House as a Member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Aberdare; read, and agreed to. DUNDEE CORPORATION LIBRARIES ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. Read 3 (according to order), and passed. ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House tomorrow. ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL signed at Washington, 13th January, TRADE REPORTS, ANNUAL SERIES. No. 2786. No. 2787. Morocco (Tangier, etc.). No. 2788. Greece (Cyclades). No. 2789. Japan. MINES AND QUARRIES (GENERAL CENSUS OF ENGLAND AND WALES. Area, houses, and population; also Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table. LUNACY. Report to the Lord Chancellor of the Read 3 (according to order), and number of visits made, patients seen, and passed. PETITIONS. LAND VALUES. Petition for taxation of; of Corporation of Stockport; read, and ordered to lie on the Table. SHOPS (EARLY CLOSING) (No. 2) BILL [H.L.]. Petitions in favour of: of persons signing (2); read, and ordered to lie on the Table. RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. TREATY SERIES, No. 11 (1901). Convention between the United Kingdom and the United States of America, extending the period for accession of British colonies and possessions to the Convention of 2nd March, 1899, relative to the disposal of real and personal property (Treaty Series, No. 17 (1900); Aylesbury Prison, permitting her to be at large on condition that she enter the Elizabeth Fry Refuge, Hackney, E. Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table. THE DISASTER IN THE WEST INDIES. THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: My Lords, I beg to ask the noble Earl the Under Secretary for the Colonies a Question of which I have given him private notice-whether he can give the House any information as to the state of things at St. Vincent, or in the Windward Islands generally, including Mar tinique, for I am sure your Lordships all feel, in common with the people of this country, the deepest sympathy with the French nation in the great calamity which has fallen on them. opposed by the noble Lord who represents the Home Office on the ground that it did not contain the safeguards suggested in your Lordships' Committee of last year by the noble Marquess at the head of the Government. I am sorry if I made a mistake in not inserting them, but I was under the impression that the noble Marquess would prefer his own words, and it was impossible for a private Member to introduce special provisions with reference to expenses which the noble Marquess admits would be necessary; but in moving the Second Reading I stated our readiness to insert any words necessary to carry out the suggestion. The noble Marquess, from a reason which we all regretted, was absent on the occasion, and my noble friend Lord Belper thought it necessary to urge the rejection of the Bill. This caused widespread disappointment through the country, and as the Government were prepared to allow the Bill to pass provided it contained certain provisions, which we on on our part were ready to accept-so that there was really no substantial difference-we have had provisions drawn which I understand satisfy the noble Marquess. The Bill, even without these additional safeguards, carried out the recommendaHouse of Commons. It had passed through two Committees of the House the Report of the Committee of your of Commons; it is in accordance with Lordships' House which sat last year, and is unanimously supported by the Committee. I will not repeat at any length the evidence which I brought so recently before your Lordships. The Committee state, as a result of the inquiries, that in many places the shopkeepers and shop assistants are working from eighty to ninety hours a week, hours which are, of course, grievously injurious to health. The medical evidence, indeed, was very tions of an unanimous Resolution of the SHOPS EARLY CLOSING (No. 2) BILL weighty, and, as the Committee observes— [H.L] [SECOND READING.] "Such serious warnings from the heads of the medical profession cannot safely be disre Order of Day for the Second Reading garded." read. *LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, at an earlier period in the session I submitted to your Lordships a Bill to provide for the early closing of shops. This was In factories the hours are now fifty-six and a half, so that shop assistants are actually working thirty hours a week more than factory operatives. We have had Bill after Bill, Act after Act, dealing with factories and workshops, and I have stringent. I should like, if it were in order, to read to your Lordships the Reports of the two Committees - the Committee of the House of Commons and the Committee of your Lordships' House. My last argument is derived from a Paper issued to your Lordships by my noble friend Lord Wemyss. It is a statement against an eight hours Bill. This is, however, a twelve or fourteen hours Bill *THE EARL OF WEMYSS: The prin ciple is the same. never been able to understand why Councils of England, Scotland, and Ireland nothing should be done for shops. all support the measure, which, indeed, see made more Now, what are the provisions of this they would wish to Bill Firstly, two-thirds of the shopkeepers must memorialise the local authority. The local authority may then, if they think fit, pass a regulation for the closing of shops at the hour suggested by the shopkeepers themselves not, however, earlier than seven o'clock on five days and one o'clock on one day in the week. We had thought that these safeguards were ample, but the noble Marquess insists on, and we have inserted, provisions that, in addition, the consent of the Home Office must be obtained; and finally, the orders must be submitted to Parliament. Before anything is done, therefore, the shopkeepers must propose, and the local authority, the Home Office, and Parliament must assent. Many of the shop assistants are, I know, afraid that a Bill so hedged round with precautions will effect little; but, knowing the strong feeling of the shopkeepers, and having confidence in the local authorities, we take a more sanguine view. Moreover, in many cases the wishes of the great majority of shopkeepers are at present set at defiance by a minute minority, and the very existence of this Act, the knowledge that a power exists which can be called into operation if necessary, will no doubt in many cases be sufficient. My Lords, I have told you the long-the terribly long-hours which prevail in many places. Let me give you *LORD AVEBURY: In matters of this kind we must look to the way in which the principle is to be carried out. The noble Earl's Paper contains a passing reference to this Bill, evidently written by some one who had not seen it, or at any rate who quite misunderstood it. But I wish specially to point out that none of those who signed have any special concern in the matter. We all know my noble friend's energy, his perseverance, his enthusiasm, his persuasiveness. He has succeeded in obtaining a certain number of signatures of manufacturers, ship builders, mine owners, and others- a mere handful out of the innumerable companies and firms engaged in the commerce of the country. But he has not Mr. Wollauer, who represents been able to obtain the support of one the London Master Bakers Society-some single Shopkeepers' Association. I appeal 6,000 to 7,000 employers-told the Com-, to this House in the name of over 300 mittee that he and his colleagues employ Shopkeepers' Associations. In moving between them from 18,000 to 20,000 the Second Reading of this Bill, I do so women, of whom nine-tenths are now in the name of the Trade Unions, of working 90 hours a week. His Society supports the Bill, because, he says one case. 66 These hours are unnecessarily long and exceedingly cruel, and it is white slavery for the 18,000 to 20,000 females to whom I refer in our own trade." Happily, in the case of this measure, there is no conflict between class and class, between employers and employed. I speak for over 300 Shopkeepers' Associations, representing all trades and all parts of the country, all of whom support our Bill, while, as far as we know, only two oppose it. Your Committee also point out that in such a matter the Trades, Unions may fairly be considered to represent the working classes. The Trades Lord Avebury. the shop assistants, of the Shopkeepers' Associations all over the country, and of the medical profession. The Associations I represent are not confined to any one part of the country. They represent the shopkeepers in every great city and town. in England, Scotland, and Ireland, in the North and South and the East and West; and in their name I implore you to pass this Bill, and thus give effect to the unanimous Report of the Committee whom you yourselves appointed. Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a.*** (Lord Avebury.) *THE EARL OF WEMYSS: My Lords, of the kind have been taken. I I think that many of your Lordships have received a number of other letters will share my surprise at the un- on the subject, all of which go to show expected re-appearance of this Jack-in- that the Bill will be the ruin of small the-box Bill, which I thought, and I am traders and a great inconvenience to sure many of your Lordships thought, working men, many of whom can only we had put comfortably to rest for the trade after the hour at which it is proremainder of the session, when on posed to close these shops. If 100 per February 18th the Second Reading of cent. of the employers and 100 per this Bill No. 1 was rejected by a con- cent. of the employed were in favour of siderable majority, but has again the Bill, that would, in my mind, in no been sprung upon us and calls way affect the vital principle of the Bill itself No. 2. This No. 2 Bill is in-namely, the interference with trade by principle absolutely the same measure. the regulation of the labour f adult The only distinction is a slight difference in procedure. Under the first Bill, local authorities were given power, where two-thirds of the shopkeepers agreed, to close shops on certain days and hours, and thereby oppress the remaining third. But under this Bill this can only be done by a Provisional Order, which has to come before Parliament. That is almosta distinction without a differenceat any rate, the difference is only a slight one of procedure. My noble friend stated that I had been unable to collect any evidence against this Bill. The memorial to which he referred had nothing to do with this Bill, the evidence it contained having been collected from another purpose; but I used it to show the feeling which exists with regard to this matter. men. That is the broad principle at stake. If the principle were admitted in this case, do your Lordships think it would stop here? It would go on to everything; it would go even into my noble friend's house, for I doubt whether there is any house in which servants do not work pretty well up to twelve or fourteen hours a day. The Table of the House of Commons groans under Bills which constitute an interference with liberty in every direction. There is the Shops Bill, which vides that no one is to work more than regulates the hours for meals, and prosixty hours a week. Then there is the Wages Boards Bill, which seeks to fix the minimum wages to be received in certain trades. That, to my mind, is going back in legislation to the Dark Ages. The Mines (Eight Hours) Bill was lost by one vote, but the House of Commons had no guidance from the Government as to how to vote upon that measure. Again, there are the Coal Mines (Employment) Bill, which provides that a person shall not be employed in any mine unless he has taken up mining as a profession and been so employed before he has reached the age of eighteen years; the Shop Clubs Bill, which interferes with arrangements between employers and employed as to membership of shop clubs; the Home Industries Bill, which places those who carry on work in their homes under the Factory Legislation; and, Mr. Harris, the Secretary of the Traders' Defence Association, writing to me with reference to the Memorandum on my noble friend's Bill-this Memorandum, by the way, is identical with the Memorandum on No. 1 Bill-says that, whereas it is there stated that the shopkeepers are warm supporters of the Bill, in reality 90 per cent. of them are opposed to it. My noble friend speaks of the number of meetings that have been held in favour of this Bill, and says none in opposition to it have been held in London; but this gentleman informs me that three large meetings-one at the Cannon Street Hotel-have opposed it. There is another statement in the Memorandum, finally, the Trades Union and Trades namely- "As regards London, a petition in its favour has been signed by more than half the shopkeepers affected." Disputes Bills. Your Lordships' House, as the highest Court of Appeal, gave a most admirable judgment recently in favour of justice and liberty, but that judgthis as a ment was hateful to trade unionists, who steps have introduced the two latter Bills in order Mr. Harris characterises monstrous statement, for no |