adheres to, and it has animated us in framing the Bill, and I am convinced in so framing it we have been following a wise and statesmanlike policy. Now, I would ask anyone who has listened to this debate whether, if the educational objections to this Bill had been the only objections present, there would have been a division on the Second Reading? I am perfectly certain that there would not. I have admired the ingenuity of those on the other side who claim with justice to be interested in education in finding reasons for voting against the Second Reading. These reasons have been ingenious, but they have not been been ingenious, but they have not been very powerful; and I am pretty certain that if educational interests alone were at

rates to education in his own country, and suddenly has prickings of conscience when he crosses into Northumberland. Every one knows that rates are applied to denominational industrial schools. School Boards themselves apply them in the case of Jews to denominational purposes, and everyone knows that under the Technical Instruction Act denominational schools have been assisted out of the rates. It really is impossible to say that a system of that kind, which has been acquiesced in by Nonconformists, can be a matter of conscience when it is extended, especially when we remember that under this Bill every grievance under which Nonconformists suffer stake, it would not be opposed in the will be largely diminished. Complaint Second Reading. Why is it opposed? was made of the grievance as to the The Bill is opposed principally on account employment of teachers, but I would of the religious difficulty. It is a political remind the House that under this Bill force wielded by Nonconformist bodies it will be in the power of every County who are opposed to the Bill, who are Council to provide educational machinery driving hon. Members into the lobby for the teachers, irrespective of the will against it, not their convictions as to its or wishes of the managers of the voluninefficacy as an educational measure. tary schools.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Monmouthshire, W.): That is not a proper thing to say.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It is a perfectly proper thing to say. I think the House will do me the justice to acknowledge that I am the last man to make light of anything which is regarded as in conscience objectionable by any human being, but, after all, in the name of conscience very many unwise things have been done in the course of human history; and when I am told by correspondence which has reached me in large proportions within the past few days that this Bill is an insult to Nonconformists, that it is cruel to them, that it interferes with religious liberty, I really wonder whether my correspondents or I have lost all sense of the use and proportion of language. In what way can it interfere with conscience? I am told it is because rates are applied to denominational education. Everyone knows that taxes are SO applied. Rates are so applied North of the Tweed, and I can hardly believe that a Presbyterian from Scotland feels no twinges of conscience in applying his Mr. A. J. Balfour.

Again, we are told-I think this is one of the pet phrases of the hon. Member for the Carnarvon

under the

Burghs-that this rivets the clerical
chain round the necks of the people.
I am the last man to deny that in the
of Rome and every other denominational
Church of England, as in the Church
body, there may be, and probably will be,
found men of narrow and bigoted views
who do little honour to the cause in
which they are engaged. It is possible
that there are schools in this country,
management of the clergyman
of the parish, in which things have gone
on which would be as repulsive, I venture
to say, to Members on this side of the
House as to Members on the other. I
have tried to run some of those stories
to ground, but I confess I have failed.
I am not, however, concerned to deny
that such cases may exist, although I
have not come across them. But
so far as the evil exists, it is one
which must be immensely mitigated
by this Bill. What you profess to be
afraid of is clerical tyranny.
point out that the age of one-man
management comes to an end when this
Bill is passed. There must always be

Let me

other members associated with the want? What they want, though they clergyman. In many cases, I am told, do not say so, is slowly to starve the the other two members of the Managing voluntary schools. That does not, and Committee, besides the clergyman and cannot, conduce either to Christian the nominated member, will often be charity or to the education of the non-attendant. But if they take no children. We take a different view. We part in affairs, evidently the manage- build upon the foundations to be found, ment of the school will be equally knowing that they are the only foundadivided between the clergyman and tions available. The voluntary schoolsthe nominated member. But if, on the other hand, these otiose managers do take part in the affairs of the school, is it not evident that this strictly clerical influence will be only one quarter, at the most, of the whole management of the school? This has been made a clerical question. The attack is on the clergy. If the laity are in a majority, I do not believe that any of those errors which have been feared will be committed. If you have this large lay element, and all the publicity which is ensured by the system we propose, I am perfectly certain that all fear may be removed; and if that is not enough, remember what a weapon this power of building a new school puts into your hands. Under the Bill, for the first time, if any managers of a voluntary school so abuse their power as to make themselves

intolerable to the parish in which there is only a solitary school, it is possible, nay, easy, for another school to be built in which their control shall be non

are here, and they must remain. The Cowper-Temple clause--for which I have no especial admiration-is also intended to remain in our system. The common sense of our people, on these two disparate and illogical buttresses, will. found a system of religious and secular education, acceptable to the mass of the people. The difficulties from which we suffer are difficulties in this House; there will be no difficulty in the parishes or in the schools. They are not difficulties in the parish or the school; and if only the professional politician will allow these things to rest, I am. perfectly confident that, not merely as regards secondary education, but also as to primary education, this Bill will work for peace, sound education, and religious harmony.

(11.57.) Question put.

The House divided:-Ayes, 402; Noes,

existent. What do the Nonconformists 165. (Division List No. 166.)

Abraham, William (Cork.N. E.)
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel
Aird, Sir John
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden
Ambrose, Robert

AYES.

| Anson, Sir William Reynell
Archdale, Edward Mervyn
Arkwright, John Stanhope
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.
Arrol, Sir William
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Bailey, James (Walworth)
Bain, Colonel James Robert
Baird, John George Alexander
Balcarres, Lord
Baldwin, Alfred

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Balfour,RtHnGerald W. (Leeds
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)
Banbury, Frederick George
Barry, E. (Cork, S.)
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)
Bartley, George C. T.
Beach, Rt.Hn.Sir Michael Hicks
Beckett, Ernest William
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.
Beresford, Lord Chas. William
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.
Bignold, Arthur
Bigwood, James
Bill, Charles

Blundell, Colonel Henry
Boland, John
Bond, Edward

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-
Boulnois, Edmund
Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)
Brassey, Albert

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu
Brotherton, Edward Allen
Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.)
Brymer, William Ernest
Bull, William James
Bullard, Sir Harry

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Burke, E. Haviland

Butcher, John George

Dewar, T. R(T'rH'mlets, S. Geo.
Dickinson, Robert Edmond
Dickson-l'oynder, Sir John P.
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-
Dillon, John

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph
Dixon-Hartland, SirFred Dixon
Doogan, P. C.
Dorington, Sir John Edward
Doughty, George
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Doxford, Sir William Theodore
Duke, Henry Edward
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin
Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Faber, Edmund B. (Hants., W.)
Faber, George Denison (York)
Fardell, Sir T. George
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward
Ffrench, Peter
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r
Field, William

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst
Finch, George H.
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Firbank, Joseph Thomas
Fisher, William Hayes

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Fison, Frederick William

Carew, James Laurence
Carlile, William Walter
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.
Cautley, Henry Strother
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)
Cavendish, V.C. W (Derbyshire
Cayzer, Sir Charles William
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn.J. (Birm.)
Chamberlain,J. Austen (Wore'r
Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry
Chapman, Edward
Charrington, Spencer
Churchill, Winston Spencer
Clancy, John Joseph
Clare, Octavius Leigh
Clive, Captain Percy A.

FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-
Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon
Flavin, Michael Joseph
Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Flower, Ernest
Flynn, James Christopher
Forster, Henry William
Foster, PhilipS(Warwick,S. W.

Gardner, Ernest
Galloway, William Johnson
Garfit, William
Gibbs, HnA. G. H. (City of Lond.
Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)
Gilhooly, James

Godson, SirAugustus Frederick Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'r'ml'ts Gore, HnG. R.C. Ormsby-(Salop Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.)

Coddington, Sir William
Cogan, Denis J.
Coghill, Douglas Harry
Cohen, Benjamin Louis
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse
Colomb,Sir John Charles Ready
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole
Compton, Lord Alwyne
Condon, Thomas Joseph
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge
Cranborne, Viscount
Crean, Eugene
Cripps, Charles Alfred
Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Cust, Henry John C.

Dalrymple, Sir Charles
Davenport, William Bromley-
Delany, William
Denny, Colonel

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim
Goulding, Edward Alfred
Graham, Henry Robert
Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Green, Walford D(Wednesbury
Greene, SirEW(B'rySEdm'nds
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)
Greene, W.Raymond-(Cambs.)
Grenfell, William Henry
Greville, Hon. Ronald
Gretton, John
Groves, James Grimble
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill
Gunter, Sir Robert
Guthrie, Walter Murray
Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.
Hambro, Charles Eric
Hamilton, Rt HnL'rdG(Midd'x
Hamilton, Marq.of(L'nd'nd'rry
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.
Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford

Harris, Frederick Leverton
Haslam, Sir Alfred S.
Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.
Hay, Hon. Claude George
Hayden, John Patrick
Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley
Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.
Heaton, John Henniker
Helder, Augustus
Henderson, Alexander
Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter
Hickman, Sir Alfred
Higginbottom, S. W.
Hill, Arthur

Hoare, Sir Samuel
Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.
Hogg, Lindsay

Hope,J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside
Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Houston, Robert Paterson
Hoult, Joseph
Howard,Jno.(Kent,Faversham
Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil
Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)
Hudson, George Bickersteth
Hutton, John (Yorks. N.R.)
Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton
Johnston, William (Belfast)
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Joyce, Michael

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.
Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)
Keswick, William
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.
Kimber, Henry
Knowles, Lees

Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm.
Laurie, Lieut.-General
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)
Lawrence, Wni. F. (Liverpool)
Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth)
Lawson, John Grant
Leamy, Edmund

Lee, ArthurH(Hants., Fareham
Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.
Lockwood, Lt. Col. A. R.
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham
Long, Rt.Hn. Walter(Bristol,S.
Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Lowe, Francis William
Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)
Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)
Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth
Lundon, W.

Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

Macartney, Rt HnW.G. Ellison
Macdona, John Cumming
MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.
MacIver, David (Liverpool)
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Maconochie, A. W.
MacVeagh, Jeremiah
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
M'Calmont, Col. H. L. B(Cambs.

Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Allen, Charles P. (Glouc.,Stroud | Ashton, Thomas Gair