leave to offer one or two observations | stituted for the old nominee Council, with reference to the public meeting and Committees of Grievances, territorial petition which have been so often alluded' and general, were appointed, and these to. I will be quite ready to treat every committees had, year after year, urged representation from without with proper their claims for redress in the most respect; but, in considering a petition strenuous terms, vituperating, in fact, the of this sort, it is open to us to consider ministers who turned a deaf ear to their also how its signatures have been pro- applications. The final petition to the cured. And I am credibly informed that Queen for redress was carried by the this petition has been carried for sig- almost unanimous vote of that Council, nature not only into the public-houses of and I maintain that the Bill before the Lower George-street, but to the various House contains, in a condensed shape, shipping offices, where the names of the redress of every one of the grievances sailors, or any other persons who could which have been so long complained of. write, were added to it. (Hear, hear.) (Hear, hear.) There is no deviation exThe mere numbers made up in.this way cept in the hereditary clauses. To show are not entitled to any weight. We how inconsistent is the present outcry, must look to the nature of the petition I will quote from the despatch to the itself, and to the names of the respectable Secretary of State as to what is asked and intelligent persons who have signed for and proposed. The petition, after it, and must give it only such weight as setting out the grievances, proceeds to these may warrant. (Hear, hear.) A declare that, in order to afford no excuse great many gentlemen went to the public for the continuance of these complaints, meeting also, not for the purpose of the Council identifying themselves with what might be then said and done, but for the laudable purpose of hearing both sides of the question, and there were many whose names were included in the list of the self-appointed Committee without their sanction. (Hear, hear.) I know one or two who were not only placed in this position, but who entirely dissented from the opinions which were expressed, and the course which was pursued. (Hear, hear.) When we reflect upon these things, upon the circulation of inflamanatory placards, which have been resorted to, and upon other measures of a similar nature which have been taken, it is quite fair and reasonable to say that respect should be paid now, only to the opinions of such persons as are capable of forming a reasonable judgment, and that time should be given for mature and calm deliberation throughout the whole country before it can be assumed that the popular voice has been heard upon the question. (IIear, hear.) And while the oppositionists out of doors charge the supporters of the Bill with inconsistency, they have been themselves peculiarly inconsistent. In the very first session of this house, when it was sub Are prepared, upon the surrender to the Colonial Legislature of the entire management of all revenues, territorial as well as general, in which we include mines of every description, and upen the establishment of a constitution among us similar in its outline to that of Canada, to assume and provide for the whole cost of our internal government, whether civil or military, the salary of the Governor-General only excepted, and to grant to your Majesty an adequate civil list on the same terms as in Canada, instead of the sums appropriated in the schedules and the Imperial Act 13 and 14 Victoria, cap. 59. And, in conclusion, humbly prays that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to cause such measures to be adopted as may be necessary to give effect to this proposal. I have already in my despatch, No. 69, of the principal points now submitted to her Mathe 12th April, 1850, expressed my opinion on jesty's consideration; but I deem it right to add, that when the motion upon which this petition was adopted was brought before the Council it was carried (after a division which was called for by the Colonial Secretary, on the part of the Government,) by a majority of 21 to 8, the minority consisting entirely of the official nominee members, with the exception of one non-official nominee member, Mr. Parker. Now, I would beg to observe, with reference to the mention of my name in the foregoing paragraph, that the only reason why I did vote with the majority on that occasion was, that I did not at that time think the colony was fitted for Responsible Government. The despatch then goes on to say:— It is also proper that I should state my conviction that the desire to have a Constitution conferred upon the colony, agreeing in its principles with that applied for in the petition, is not coufined to the Legislative Council alone, or to a party in the colony, but that it is supported by the general and deliberate opinion of the most loyal, respectable, and influential members of the community. And further, his Excellency expresses his opinion that such a concession would be considered as a great favour conferred upon the colony. (Hear, hear.) But my honourable and learned friend was not satisfied with this, and he attempted to induce the House to stop the supplies; which was thus noticed in the Governor-General's despatch of the 31st August, 1852 I also transmit a copy of the Sydney Morning Herald of the 26th instant, containing the report of a debate in the Legislative Council on the previous day, on a further motion brought forward by Mr. Wentworth that the Council should pledge itself to refuse to vote the supplies for the year 1854, unless a favourable reply was returned to the above-mentioned petition." And farther on : I have only to add my conviction of the great and growing desire entertained by all classes in this community that this concession should be granted. Now it appears to me that it is impossible any measure could be devised so completely to redress the grievances complained of as the Bill now under the consideration of the House. (Hear, hear.) And considering the length of time during which the public at large have had these matters under consideration, and considering the total silence which has prevailed out of doors, which must be construed into acquiescence, I do think, if the measure be rejected now, the colony will be guilty of the grossest inconsistency. (Cheers.) Sir John Pakington, in his reply to that despatch, Now, I consider that this is as plain as language can possibly be. (Hear, hear.) It clearly sets forth what the colony asks for, and what the Home Government is prepared to accede to. (Hear, hear.) But it is asserted by some honourable members that there is no compact, and that, even if such did exist, there is no guarantee that Her Majesty's Ministers will perform their part. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Thurlow.) But I can really see no grounds for such an argument. If this Bill goes home, and is accepted, the concessions to the colony will be made concurrently with the establishment of the new Constitution. The measure must be passed as a whole or not at all. (Hear, hear.) But it is urged also that the Duke of Newcastle, in his despatch, has opened a doorhas given a certain latitude of discretion; and I find that this is admitted even in the report of the Select Committee. But I confess I cannot discover anything of the kind in the despatch of his Grace. The only part which refers to the subject in any way is the last paragraph but one; which, to say the most, is exceedingly obscure. But even if it is the intention of the Secretary of State to open the door to discussion, still the latitude is explicitly left to this House itself. (Hear, hear, hear.) graph is as follows: The para I am ignorant of the shape which the project under the consideration of the Committee of the Council may eventually assume. The Legislative Council, indeed, in the petition before adverted to, favoured a constitution similar in its outline to that of Canada. It would be premature for me to pass an opinion, without materials for forming a judgement, upon the policy of totally reconstructing the frame of Government recently established; but I may state that I have always thought it probable that the experience and wisdom of the Council would dictate better provisions than Parliament for securing good government in New South Wales, and pronfoting harmony in the connexion subsisting between Great Britain and this important province of the empire. There is no other part of the despatch bearing upon the question; and the decision is clearly left to the Legislative Council. (Hear, hear.) Now it has been charged against my honourable and learned friend the member for Sydney, that he has changed his opinions. But I do not think so. The Bill is a specific confirmation of all that he ever has contended for. Possibly the language he has recently used was more conservative than that which he formerly indulged in (a laugh); But after all, with what grace does such a charge come from hon. members opposite? They are so fond of citing Mr. Lowe! Has not Mr. Lowe changed his opinions? (Hear, hear.) Has not the hon. and learned member for Cumberland changed his mind? Have not many other hon. gentlemen changed their minds? (Laughter and cheers.) They claim that privilege, but they will not allow that time and experience should influence anybody else. (Cheers.) The whole scope of the arguments in the house have been as between the British Constitution and other Constitutions. I have been happy to be instructed by these comparisons, but for my part I do not want to go to America, or to Belgium, or to any other country for a Constitution. (Cheers.) I am satisfied to live under the Constitution of England; and it appears to me that all we have to do is to fall back upon the nearest resemblance to that Constitution which we can devise. (Cheers.) And how it can be argued, that an elective Council would in any way resemble the House of Lords, I am quite at a loss to conceive. In the composition of the House of Lords there is nothing elective: the only approach to it is the case cited, which occurred in the reign of Edward III. But this, which was an election of a peer by peers, was admitted by Hallam to be very doubtful, and wrapped in obscurity. At all events, the Commons had nothing to do with the election. But even this was only an exception to the general rule. The House of Lords, in its legislative capacity, is entirely a nominated body; and I know of nothing to prevent the Queen from adding any number of peers by nomination. (Hear, hear.) What, therefore, can be a closer resemblance than a House of Nominees appointed by the representative of the Crown? (Hear, hear.) But though this is quite clear, I think it still desirable to satisfy all reasonable doubts, and I would offer one or two other observations. If we trace the history of the Commons, we shall find that they are absolutely supreme as regards the power of taxation (hear, hear); and with that power neither of the other branches of the legislature can interfere. There is all the difference between the power of taxation and the power of legislation, without representation. The house of Lords can only assent or dissent in the case of money bills, but cannot alter them; but in respect to all other legislation it has equal powers with the other two estates. This absolute power over taxation possessed by the Commons, as representatives of the people, is expressly acknowledged in various ways. Queen, in opening the session of Parliament, always addresses the Commons separately on the subject of the finances of the nation, and the preamble of the Annual Appropriation Bill is differently drawn from that of all other bills, expressly acknowledging that grants of money are of the Commons alone. And the royal assent is also given to money bills in a different form from that which applies to all others. Instead of the words La Royne le veult, the formula used is La Royne remercie ses bons sijets, accepte leur benevolence, et ainsi le veult. Now I think, that all reasonable persons ought to be satisfied with this supremacy which resides in the people's The And yet we have the most ample experience that this anomalous construction is found to be perfectly compatible with the purest liberty, with national prosperity, and national greatness. (Cheers.) Now I appeal to these figures to show that population is not, and ought not to be, the basis of representation. But if the meeting which is to be held on Monday will be satisfied, if Sydney will be pacified by a small concession, I have no objection whatever that her share in the representation should be somewhat increased. (Cheers.) Mr. BERRY: In rising to express my entire concurrence with the great principles of the Bill, I request the indulgence of the Council on the ground of a very severe hoarseness under which I am labouring, and which I fear will render my few remarks but imperfectly understood. With respect to minor details of the Bill, and also as regards the schedules, I do not intend to refer at this stage of the proceedings, as they can be far inore appropriately discussed in Committee. With reference to the great point, the institution of two Houses of Parliament, it appears that all parties are agreed: but with this wide difference representatives with respect to money | only a portion of the electorai body, and bills; and I contend that, with a system represents only a minority of those who of responsible government, no reasonable are entrusted with the franchise! man will be dissatisfied. (Hear, hear.) I will say no more on this particular point, but will only address a few observations to the house on the subject of the electoral districts. Additional representation is claimed for Sydney. (Hear, hear.) Now I have analysed the returns in Parliament under the general election of 1852, and will beg to trouble the house with a few strange anomalies, in regard to the representation of the people of England. For instance: the cities and boroughs of England (excluding the universities) elect 319 members, and they contain a population of 7,140,241; the remainder of the population, 20,310,621, elect 339 members, -a minority of the people, electing a majority of the Parliament. The nine counties (or portions of counties) of Rutland, Westmoreland, Sussex (West), Huntingdon, Worcester (West), Cumberland (West), Northumberland (North), Salop (South), and Nottingham (South), having a population, exclusive of towns in them represented, of 514,783, with 30,647 voters, and rated to the poor at £2,855,452, send 18 members, while the West Riding of Yorkshire, with a larger population (794,779)-electors 37,319-and rated to the poor at £2,405,871, sends only 2-the mode of returning the members. members! The Tower Hamlets, with a That party which support the Bill before population of 539,111, registered elec- the Council advocate a nominee Upper, tors 23,534, property rated £1,373,052, and an elective Lower Chamber. returns only two members; whereas the opponents of the Bill contend that both Borough of Honiton also returns two, Chambers should be elective. Then the but with a population of only 3,427, first party are stanch advocates for moregistered electors 278, and property narchical principles; the second vehe£9,924. Each has the same legislative ment clamorers for republicanism. (Loud power, yet one has 157 times as much po- cheers.) I will remind the Council that, pulation, 82 times as many electors, and agreeably to the principle of the British has property rated to the poor 132 times Constitution, the House of Lords is comgreater than the other. These illustra-posed of nominees, whilst the Americans, tions, showing conclusively that population is not the basis of representation, are only a few of those which might be taken from the eccentric anomalies in the representation of England-the majority are excluded from the representation, the majority of the electors are out-voted by a minority. Parliament is elected by The when they first shaped their constitution, had no remedy but to resort to elective councils, for they were all rebels. (Hear, hear.) They might have had great cause to rebel; but they nevertheless were rebels in the eyes of the law. (Hear, hear.) Thank God, Australia has not come to that pass, and I hope and believe and carried back to their abode of misery. (Hear.) Their only place of refuge is on the ground of British America, upon which, when they place their feet, they, by the law of England, are at once free. (Cheers.) That the Constitution Bill before the Council will have to be improved and modified, as the colony in she never will. (Loud cheers.) Indeed I should be extremely puzzled to know what the colonists can possibly have to rebel about. (Renewed cheers.) We have no grievances, no taxes, nothing on earth to complain about; we have liberty of the press; and God knows we have freedom of speech enough: for if such rampant speeches as were uttered at the Vic-creases in wealth, population, and imtoria Theatre the other day, had been portance, there can be no doubt. The spoken in any of the countries of Conti- British Constitution is the result of six nental Europe or America, the speakers or eight hundred years' experience; and would have been liable to incarceration, the great great grandson of the first if in foreign lands, or Judge Lynch's Norwegian pirate who landed on Englaw in the States of the Union. (Hear.) land's shore, never could have dreamed Now, I prefer a monarchy to a republic. of the future glory of the land his anIndependently of my love for the noble cestors came to ravage. The attacks of institutions of the mother country, as hon. members on pastoral and other rural those under which I have been born, I occupations, I can afford to smile at. love them for their intrinsic value, for I These attacks are so easily and so condo not hesitate to declare my full and stantly made, when solid argument is not unqualified belief that Great Britain and forthcoming, that it is really a waste of her magnificent colouies are the only strength to repel them. (Hear.) As to countries in the world where free consti- vague but dark hints thrown out by agitutions exist. (Loud cries of hear.) Talk tators, that the example of America of the liberty of the model republic in- might soon be followed here, in so far as deed! Can that land be said to be free throwing off the yoke went, I would where, in its slave States, one-third of only remind these revolutionary gentry, the population form the goods and chat- that all that America asked for-nay, tels of others?-where, in what were much more than she asked for when mockingly styled the free States, every she quarrelled with the mother country, man was the slave of the mob, who re- is now cordially offered to her Australasorted to Judge Lynch if he dared to re- sian colonies. (Loud cheers.) I assert, sist its power? (Hear, hear.) In Eng- that no colonist of New South Wales land, or in this colony, who dare oppress has any just reason to predict its separathe meanest person in violation of the tion from England; we had far better, law of the land? No man. And I de- from every motive of love, duty, and our clare before God, that for myself I can own great advantage, teach our children see no blemish in the British Constitu- to hope for, and to bid our descendants Lion; but, on the contrary, can only see also to hope, an eternal alliance with the that which this great and rapidly rising greatest and most prosperous empire of colony will do wisely and well to follow. the earth. (Prolonged cheers.) To ano(Cheers.) All that can be said in favour ther point I would briefly allude, namely, of America is, that there, as in Aus- the desire expressed by certain of the tralia, the hard-working industrious man Northern settlements for separation from is sure to find constant work and fair New South Wales. I deeply deplore the remuneration. (Hear.) (Hear.) But here all infatuation of these people, and depremen are free; whilst in America there cate the miserable example they want to are fifteen slave states, whence, if any set. If they succeed we shall next have slaves escaped, they were hunted like St. Vincent, Northumberland, and other wild dogs by their savage masters, and if of our districts, praying to be allowed to they reach any of the free states they, set up for themselves; and then what a under the infamous Fugitive Slave Law, pretty prospect of being cut up into riare at once given up to their pursuers, diculously petty and republican States |