forts of perfons, for all forts of crimes, committed against all forts of perfons. He then confidered the precedents which had been adduced to juftify the prefent bill, and fhewed they did not apply to this cafe :-the first of thefe, that which paffed in the year after the revolution, was rather a confequence of the revolution than an exception to its principles, was of the fame kind as that which had paffed in the reign of Henry the VII. to exculpate those who had fupported the king de jure against the king de facto. To the gentlemen who urged this act as a precedent he would recommend it when they talked of the revolution, to remember what led to that revolu tion-a ftruggle for the difpenfing power in the erown! As little did the precedents drawn from the years 1715, and 1745 apply—for thofe were times when open rebellion was to be oppofed by other measures than the due courfe of law, and could not be compared with a time of partial and doubtful infurrection. It was natural to expect, he faid, that when the neceffity for this meafure was lefs ftrong, the measure itself would have been more moderate-the contrary was the cafe -for the acts of indemnity on those former occafions went only to the arrefting of fufpected perfons, the breaking open of houfes, and the preffing of hortes-the prefent act went to cover the actual tranfportation of men from their native country without form of law, or shadow of trial! Nay it went farther-it covered not only the transportation of men without trial, but the actual taking of men without trial out of the king's prifons, where they were out of the poffibility of being dangerous, and with respect to whom, therefore the plea of expediency did not hold. The bill, it was faid, would only indemnify those whofe motives fhould by a jury be found laudable-true, but it did not make the eceffity of the illegal act a fubject for the jury, and yet in the court of K. B. which generally leaned lightly on its officers, grofs ignorance was confidered as good a caufe for attachment as crime or corruption. It would be well if the bill attended to this principle-for it was no time to give examples of violating the laws. The houfe fhould at least on this evening look cautioufly at the conduct of magiftrates violating the law against the poor, when, by the bill of tomorrow evening the poor would in fome fort be put out of the protection of the law. Sir H. Langrifbe drew an elegant and affecting picture of the deluded mifcréancy of the lower orders of the people in feveral parts of this kingdom, and though doctors had differed as to the caufe and cure, he would beg leave as one of the bumbleft of the college to fay a few words. The exaggerated pictures of popular diftrefs drawn of late in that houfe, were fo overloaded with drapery, by the fanciful hand of the artift, as totally to spoil the likeness and proportion of the original. But if gentlemen instead of teaching the lower orders of the people of Ireland to confider their fituation as the most miferable and degrading of the human race, and thus encou raging to justify their crimes by the parliamentary defeription of their diftreffes, had taught them to confider their fituations as enviable compare with the rest of Europe; had taught them to feel that if they enjoyed the promifing growth of fpring, they enjoyed all the fullness of harveft; that their fituation was hourly and rapidly improving; that they were lefs oppreffed with taxes than any other peafantry in Europe; that their poifon was lately taxed, and their wholefome luxury untaxed, and that not a man in the community fuffered injury and oppreffion, save thofe gentlemen whofe property they had plundered, or whofe lives they had deftroyed, and that there was no country on earth where comforts were fo general and distress fo partial, and that the true fource of their unhappiness, is folely owing to the delufive prevalence of the French principles and the cant of equality; they would be foon taught to feel their real grievances were trivial indeed, however numerous their imaginary ones. Mr. Fitzgerald (knight of Kerry) in a very able fpeech-lamented that any difference in opinion fhould arife on the prefent occafion, left it might be conftrued into any thing of hefitation to support the government in putting down fedition. He should always preter the paffing of acts of indemnity for tranfgreffion of the law, in fupport of the ftate and conftitution, than increafing the penal code. Mr. Brook thought that nothing but a temperate and firm government could fave this country in the prefent crifis; he thought the prefent government to be good-and therefore fhould give it his fupport; he voted for the order of the day. Mr. Weftby was convinced of the neceffity of the bill. He thought the notoriety of the facts justified this bill, too ftrong to require further proofs. He declared that while he fhould always be proud in evincing his good wishes and friendship to the lower orders of the people, fo long as they maintained obedience and respect to the laws, fo he should be the firft to maintain thofe laws against feditious or refractory conduct on their parts. Mr. Wynne fupported the motion of the attorney general. He expreffed his tribute of gratitude for the exertions of lord Carhampton, which, from refiding within a fhort distance of the noble lord, he had an opportunity of witneffing day and night, and which he declared to be the falvation of this country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, that whatever might be the fate of the right hon. gentleman's motion, he congratulated him upon the refult, and the body of information it had brought forward--and he congratulated the house upon the acquifition of fuch facts as placed the neceffity of the bill beyond the poffibility of doubt. Mr. Egan faid, that though he came down to the house determined to oppose the bill, and to fupport the motion of his right hon. friend, as foon as he heard it—yet when he heard so many refpectable gentlemen on all fides of the houfe, rife in their places, and declare upon their honours, the facts refpecting the situation of their 222 respective refpe&ive counties, he should not feel himself an honeft man if he did not support the right hon. gentleman's motion. Sir L. Parfons thought nothing could be more mifchievous than to make the prefent a queftion of party; but he was for inquiry into the particular conduct of magistrates, in order to fee how far they were juftified by neceffity, before the houfe fhould pafs a bill to indemnify them. Sir W. Gleadowe gave his warmeft fupport to the bill. He declared he had been witness to the impreffing of many perfons charged with defenderism into his majesty's fervice, and he never heard of a fingle one of them alluded to, who was not proper objects of the procedure. Mr. Rochfort was furprised to find any oppofition to the bill-but was fure it would not be op pofed by any gentleman who really knew the ftate of the country. He did not wish to violate the feelings of the house by a detail of the hor rors committed in the county where he refided; fome inftances however deferved mention. In many cafes the mifcreants ftiling themselves defenders attacked people's houfes in the dead hour of the night, tied ropes round their necks to force out their tongues, which they cut off to prevent their informing and in some instances where perfons had been induced to profecute thefe mifcreants, and afterwards fled the county for fear, they were followed to the counties where they bad taken refuge, dragged out of their beds at night, found tied fix together, on a dung hill, and fired at like marks, till fhot to death. With refpect to the conduct of the magiftrates, in fending men on board his majesty's fhips, he utterly denied the facts to have been as ftatedno man was fent away from the county in which he lived, who was not fworn against as a defender, and deemed guilty by the committee of magiftrates (worn to do justice, or who did not afterwards confess his guilt, and went without reluc, tance, thankful for his life being faved. Mr. G. Ponsonby thought it right to go into the inquiry, because no gentleman had yet given the neceffary information to the house. For what had gentlemen related? the disturbances which had exifted in the country, and the barbarity of fome crimes which had been committed. He was forry to find by thefe accounts, that notwithstanding all the strong measures which thofe magistrates had taken, the country was rather in a worfe ftate than it had been; for was not the murder of Mr. Harman the moft atrocious crime which had been committed, and yet he had been murdered fince thofe illegalities of the magiftrates had taken place. He thought thofe illegalities fhould be inquired into before the house paffed an indemnity for them. Some of thefe illegal acts appeared of a very unwarrantab e kind indeed,, In fome counties, it was faid, he knew not with what truth, that men who were in his majesty's jails, legally committed, had, a little time before the affizes, been taken away from the cuftody of the law, without any trial, without any accufation or legal form, without even the form of a sentence, and fent on board his majefty's hips. Had these men been in the act of disturb. ing the peace, or on evidence of their guilt and of their having removed the witnesses who might profecute them, he would think it justifiable, perhaps, fo to difpofe of them; but what reason could there be for taking away a man already fafely lodged in prifon, and waiting the decifion of the law? He would be glad to hear the truth or falsehood of the reports from the judges, and they would be able to give the defired informa tion from the calendar of prifoners which must be returned to them at the affizes, and from their being neceffarily acquainted with the manner in which each of these were difpofed of. If any prifoner fhould be found to have been so removed as he had stated, would the mover of the bill indemnify the magiftrate who should have so acted? But there was another report, that certain magiftrates had privately conferred together, and without any information on oath, or good evidence of any kind, did, at heir own pleasure, and without obferving any form of law whatever, lay hands on feveral of their useful and laborious fellow fubjects, and tranfport them! Would any man juftify this conduct? [A cry of yes from a member.] I am forry faid Mr. Ponfonby, that there is one fuch man in the house; but I am fure this hon. gentleman ftands alone in this fentiment. [A cry of no! no!] I lament it then extremely, faid he, that there fhould be a number of men in this affembly, who, from paffion or any caufe, fhould fo totally forget the first princ ples of justice. How would gentlemen like to be themselves in this fituation, obnoxious to the malice or pique of every enemy, and liable, at the capricious will of a neighbour, to be tranfported for life? Let gentlemen confider this fubject seriously; the time may not be far dif tant, when the rule which is now applied to the poor man with impunity, may be applied to those who move in a much higher fphere. Mr. Curran strongly fupported the motion for the inquiry. Some exceffes he believed had taken place which no friend to his country could fee without the deepest concern. But it was not from hearsay that the belief of a general confede racy against the flate should be adopted-it should not be a belief founded on a mere hatred of the lower orders. Of bills of indemnity he admitted the principle, that was the breach of the law for the fafety of the state. Was it fo in the last year? that was the purpofe of the inquiry. It was to fee if fuch neceffity exifted, whether fuch breach, and to fuch a degree was neceffary. He knew from public evidence on oath that most flagrant oppreflion had been practiced upon some poor people by magiftrates; taken from their beds, at midnight, and tranfported no man knew whither, without the colour of accufation, or form of trial. No fuch acts were done in England at any of the times alluded to, nor does any act of in demnity there extend to any arbitrary fentence or execution of any man, or any thing not inevita ble at times of convulfion. Nothing was done to feparate the rich from the poor, and to make wealth a proof of innocence, and poverty itself a crime. He wished to have the report of the judges on the ftate of the country, and the general conduct of the magistrates. They must have obferved coolly; they had the best means of ob ferving i ferving; they could not be misled by the malignity of panic. He appealed to the candour of gentlemen themselves, whether they did not feel fome warmth on this fubject? and whether men who had the power of judging in their own ears ought alfo to pronounce on their own evidence against those who could not fpeak for themselves? As to himself he abhorred outrages as much as any man, he with no for delay, but he wifhed for information for temper, and therefore for inquiry. Mr. Prime Serjeant wished to call the recollection of gentlemen to the principle of the bill, which by no means went to indemnify any man upon any other principle but that of trial by jury. As the law now ftood, courts of juftice were bound to maintain them inviolate; and juries were bound by their oaths, however reluctant their feelings, to fupport thofe laws: but the prefent bill went to enlarge the power of courts and juries, and leave them a difcretion in favour of men who had acted with pure motives for the 1 public good. Mr. Hardy faid he had always felt a pride in vating with his hon. friend (Mr. Grattan), but he could ot on the prefent occafion; but must unequivocally support the principle of the bill, and agreed to the neceffity of adopting it without delay. Would gentlemen reflect on the confequence that might refult from delay. Would they look to the character and tyranny of Robefpierre? There were in this country hundreds of men anxious to pluck the diadem from the temples of royalty, in order to inveft themfelves with fomething like the tway of Robespierre. Lord Maxwell lamented that fince exertion on the part of the gentlemen of the country in putting down defende ifm ceased, that fanguinary fpirit was become now almost as bad as ever. Nothing was heard of there but conspiracy, burglary, plunder, and maffacre. Mr. Grattan now replied to the feveral gentlemen who spoke against his motion. However he honoured the fuggeftions of country gentlemen, he thought that something more than fuggeftions were neceffary in making laws fuch as that before the house. He was the more confirmed in this, because in England inquiry always preceded acts of this nature, and he mentioned as an inftance the committee which had been appointed to inquire into the neceffity of fufpending the habeas corpus act on a late occafion. He was confirmed in his opinion that inquiry fhould be had, because notwithstanding the trong measures of the magiftracy, the country yet remained in a state of fuppreffed infurrection. The motion he was convinced was therefore proper, and it would not be wife in the house if they rejected the prefent inquiry to look into the ftate of the country before the expiration of the fefLion. Delay could not be objected to the motion, for the inquiry proposed might be had in 24 hours; and as to the argument that the information fought was unneceffary, he must fay that how ever unneceffary it might be to thofe gentlemen who were converfant in the convulfed counties, to others it was not unneceffary. He granted that when magiftrates profeffing the public fafety as their object violated the law, the prefumption fhould be in favour of the magiftrates; but prefumption alone should not be fufficient for the house to act on; something more should be looked for. As to what had been faid to this fubject by the country gentlemen he fhould only obferve that were he a country gentleman he should have voted for the inquiry, however full his own information might be; because not to do fo would be to vote an indemnity to himself, being in the magiftracy, without fuffering the public to know whether he was guilty or innocent. Befides in the fubject of the difturbances the paffions of: gentlemen were engaged, and they were not wife counsellors to take in legislation, With refpect to the inability of the judges to give fatisfactory information, he would ask were they not intelligent obfervers of facts, and of the conduct of the magiftrates? Muft not govern ment have confulted them before they brought forward this measure? and if they could give fatisfactory information to government, why not to the house? If, however, notwithstanding these reafons, the houfe fhould think proper to reject the inquiry, he must acquiefce; he still, how ever, retained a full conviction of its neceffity. The question on the order of the day being put, it paffed without a divifion. The indemnity bill was then read a fecond time and committed for to-morrow. Feb. 4.] The Attorney General moved the order of the day. The house, according to order, refolved itself into a committee of the whole house, to take into confideration the bill for indemnifying fuch perfons as have acted fince the first day of January, 1795, for the prefervation of the pub. lic peace, and fuppreffion of the inferrections prevailing in some parts of this kingdom," Mr. Burgh in the chair. After fome progrefs had been made, Mr. M. Beresford, with a view of fending a meffage to the lords moved, that the chairman do report progress and ask leave to fit again in a quarter of an hour, which was agreed to; and on the house being resumed, Mr. Burgh reported progrefs, and got leave to fit again in a quarter of an hour. Sir John Tydd brought up the report from the felect committee appointed to inquire into the high price of corn, which is as follows: Rem folved, that it is expedient to prevent the expor tation of corn, malt, flour, bifcuit, bread, and potatoes from this kingdom for a limited time." The report was agreed to by the house. Mr. Sec. Pelham moved, that an humble addrefs be prefented to his excellency the lord lieutenant, praying, that pursuant to the faid refolution, his excellency will take fuch measures as he shall think expedient; which was agreed to. Ordered, that Mr. Pelham and the Chancellor of the exchequer do carry up the faid refolution to the lords, and defire their concurrence thereto. Went again into committee on the indemnity bill. After a conversation between the Attorney General General, the Prime Serjeant, fir L. Parfons, Mr. Igan, Mr. Stuart, Mr. Curran, fir.J. Blaquiere, and Mr. Hoare, the bill was gone through with fome amendments, and a claufe was introduced, at the fuggeftion of Mr. Egan, that any perfon who might think himself aggrieved by being fent out of the kingdom by a magiftrate, and if he fhould be abfent for three years, might within fix months after his return be at liberty to bring his action, provided he could fhew that from diftance, fickness, or other inevitable neceflity, he could not return to this kingdom fooner. On the house being refumed, ordered, that the report be received to-morrow. A message from the lords, by two of the mafters in chancery, that the lords had agreed to the refolution fent up by this houfe. Read a fecond time, the bill for the more effectually preventing infurrections, tumults and riots, by perfons ftiling themfelves defenders, and other diforderly perfons." After a short converfation, between fir L. Parfons and Mr. Egan, who ftated, that fome parts of the bill were exceptionable, and the Attorney General, who faid, that in order to give gentlemen a full opportunity to confider the bill, he fhould move that the bill be committed for Wed. mefday next. Moved accordingly, and the bill ftands committed for that day. 5.] The house resolved into a committee of fupply. The right hon. Mr. Mason in the chair. The Chancellor of the Ex hequer proceeded to fate the estimates for the public expences of the enfuing year. The three firft eftimates included the expences of the army, the total of which was 637,2921. . 9d. which made a decrease from the expences of the prefent year on this head of 4,4421. In the current year Ireland furnished to the army abroad but 19,095 men; but in the next year he would have to furnish her full number, agreeably to the compact formed in the adminiftration of lord Townshend, viz. 3235-and in time of war it was but fair we should furnish our full quota; fo that in the augmentation of the army at home there was a decrease, on comparing the expences of the current and the estimate of the future year, of £27,953 And in the difference of pay to our army abroad next year, an increafed expence of 17,848 And the decreafe made on the three heads was 8,842 The next head was alfo for military purposes, amount of which was 437,414 which is 75,00ol. more than last year. Thefe comprehend the whole of the military charges, excepting militia. In this increafe there was the fum of 5,7671. for additional staff officers to manage an increased army, which would of course be reduced at the reduction of the army itself.There was also an allowance of 30,000l. for the recruiting fervice. The reafon of this is, that the recruiting fervice of the current year was principally carried on by the fale of commiflions; but as it would not be expedient to go on increafing the number of the regiments, fome other fund must be provided for that purpofe. The expence of forage, owing to the rife on hay and corn, would be increased from 59,000l. te 74,000l. The next head for increased expence of the royal hofpital of Kilmainham £21,977 But this in reality, was not an increafe in fact upon the general expenditure; it was in lieu of the fum heretofore paid by foldiers to the support of that hospital, but which was afterwards repaid to them in another way; but the military now by another arrangement received their full pay; which while it was the very fame thing to the expence of the country, was much more fatisfactory to the foldier who heretofore imagined, because his daily advance was less than his nominal pay, that he was unfairly dealt by. The faving, on the expences under the head of ordnance in this eftimate, compared with the preceding year would be 26,1711. This owing to a ftore of mufquetry and powder being pur chafed in the present year. Having stated thofe particulars as the only ones that feemed to him material; he referred gentlemen who wish to be more minutely in formed to the estimates on the table; from which it appeared that the expences of the prefent year were £.1,996,323 1,989,399 7,424 And the estimate for the future He had alfo brought into the estimate the arrears due on the 25th of March, 1795, of 97,8911. in order that there might be legal authority for the payment thereof. But an inftance of this kind, must occur every year, for it does not be come due until the quarter expires; for instance many of thofe expences under the head of bar racks and ordnance are due in the courfe of the year, and not paid. In addition to the expences he had stated, there were other claims on the treasury, created by laws which had paffed in that houfe; for instance thofe for infirmaries and police. But the prin cipal head, under which the increase of expenditure would appear moft extraordinary, was the conveyance of military baggage from one part of the country to another. Formerly the price allowed to the carriers was but three pence per mile, but in the last feffion of parliament, the rate was, perhaps improvidently increased to 78. per mile. Any regulation neceffary on this head might be fettled by the houfe, when the mutiny bill came before them. The expence in the former year was 35,000l. but he would not now state it lefs than 75,000l. This would make the total charges for the year 2,171,3231. He then recapitulated the estimates, extraordinaries exclufive of the civil lift, and penfions as amounting to £1,996,323 Parliamentary payments, 75,000 Arrears, 100,000 Revenue, after providing for civil Bonus on lottery, To be provided by loan, from thence ready made. This would produce 962,704 3000). 65,000 He would produce a regulation as to franking, 6,080 which would produce 200cl. Some regulations and additions on the tax of £1,497,678 hair powder would be adopted. 673,645 £2,171,323 The Chancellor of the Exchequer here congratulated the committee on the state of the coun try, and the conduct which had been fhewn in the management of its revenues, whereby government were enabled to bring forward a faving of 463,8941. and only to afk a loan for the expences of the year of 674,000l.; whereas in the laft year government was obliged to afk a loan of 1,341,666. He hoped that a diminution of demand, amounting to 599,5861. would be felt in its due light by the public, and that credit would be given to the profperity of the country, and the Conduct of government, by which the fame exertions could be fupported with fo great a dimiaution of demand; and he fhewed how much on the one hand was to be attributed to the increafed revenues of the country; and on the other, to the integrity of administration, which was industrious to bring every poffible faving to the credit of the public. The Chancellor of the Exchequer then ftated the fums neceffary to be borrowed, for replacing wreafury bills due, which exceeded 500,000l.; but on this fubject he no further defcanted than so fay, that in replacing those sums, fome addisional intereft would accrue in proportion to the present state of the market. After having thus mentioned the general extent of his demands, exclufive of fome items, which he reserved for a future day, he went on briefly to mention the objects on which he meant to propofe additional taxation; and in this he should comply as well with the recommendation in the fpeech of his excellency the ford lieutenant from the throne, as with the wishes of gentlemen on the other fide of the house, in taking care to lay no burthens to affect the poor. A tax on wines feemed little likely to affect them--and therefore he propofed to lay a tax of 61. per ton on Portugal wines and according to the condition of the Methuen treaty, a tax of a third more, or gl. per ton, on French wines. This, reckoning on our ordinary imports, would make 37,000l.-but as there was an extraordinary importation of wine in the prefent year, it could not be expected it would be fo much in the enfuing year, and therefore he would reckon it but 30,000l. The next was a duty of three balfpence per bufhel, on white falt imported into this kingdom; but this though it would produce fomething confiderable was only a regulating duty, and calculated to benefit the falt manufacture of Ireland, as in England a duty of one penny per buhel was laid on the exportation of rock falt, which while it enhanced the raw material to this country, fecured the manufacture of white falt to England, and obliged us to import our falt The next was an affimilation of the ftamp du ties on bills, notes, and receipts in Ireland, to the principle adopted in England, by extending the duty to bills and receipts fo low as for fums of 49s. this he fuppofed would produce 5000l. There was another principle on which he could not calculate, it was a tax on fucceffions fimilar to that lately adopted in England; and he should first wait to fee the English bill before he brought forward any regulation on this head. There was another ground on which it was neceffery fomething fhould be done in order to fatisfy the public mind. It was on the subject of the gold found in the county of Wicklow; it was neceffary to fatisfy the public mind, whether this matter was really of fo much importance as generally reprefented or not. The intention of government was that fome experiments should be made there at an expence of about 50ol. in order to try how far the discovery was valuable, it was understood that all fuch mines were of royal property; if so, and that this appeared of any importance it should be turned to national advantage, and an at paffed for that purpose: but in this, care fhould be taken to fecure private property fo far as juftice required. There was another ground of claim on the pub lic account; it was on the governors of the bank of Ireland, whofe charter expired. On account of their inftitution new officers and other arrangements had been created, at very confidera ble expence to government, which he thought they ought to pay before the charter was to be renewed. There were fome other claims upon the trea fury, which it would be neceffary to provide, if the house should think fit. One was a charge of 1100l. a year for the fupport of decayed military gentlemen, heretofore paid under the head of military contingencies, and which, if withdrawn from them, they must be left to ftarve. He alfo fuggefted, that it would be neceffary to increase the number of the treasury board. There were but four members who could fit, and three were necessary to make a quorum. He, himself, had hitherto always attended, but public duty would neceffarily require his abfence in England, and the board being a check on public expendi ture, its operations could not be long suspended confiftently with the interest of the public. There was another branch of expence for the confideration of the houfe, and it would be difcre tionary to adopt or reject it. The rank of colonel had been given to the lieutenant-colonels of militia, and thofe gentlemen were taught to expect the pay alfo. This, therefore, was for the house to direct. Having now gone through his state. ment, he would anticipate a question which had frequently been asked in the course of debate, what retrenchments were "intended to be made?" To this he would answer, that the civil list had already |