low; but thefe warnings have been treated as the visions of fpeculative men. England, that great and mighty country, now ftaggers under a load of debt; diftreffed and difmembered, her expences overwhelm her: and where is the man who will fay fhe fhall be redeemed? Where is the man who will fay, I will redeem her!' and will fay how? Though every little minifter, or every little man who imagines he is a minifter, is ready to undertake the management of her affairs, where is the man who will fay that Ireland ought to have a peace-establishment of 15,000 men? When the augmentation took place in Lord Townshend's administration, this country was unable to bear it; and fince that day we have been involving her deeper and deeper, becaufe we at firft engaged her in an undertaking beyond her strength. When all the world united against Britain, and she was surrounded with enemies on every fide, we gave way to the feelings of our hearts, and fpared her 4000 men; and, fome time after, in the moment de flagrante bello, we granted her more than half our remaining troops: if then, in time of war, the country could fubfift without troops, will any man fay that in time of profound peace the ought to fupport 15,000 men? No; now is the time for reducing your military establishment. Let your intention be known this day, that the right honourable fecretary may have time to communicate with England. If you neglect the prefent opportunity, no minifter hereafter will have even a pretence for reftoring the finances of this country. I am no partizan, either here or in England; I can gain nothing by it: I am ready in either place, like a man, to fupport minifters, while they are right, and whenever they are wrong to oppofe them, and refift their meafures. At prefent, I hope my honourable friend will allow me to alter his motion, and state a precife idea-I would have it run thus: Refolved, that the condition of this country requires every practicable retrenchment, &c. and that the military eftablishment, in it's prefent

ftate, affords room for effectual res trenchment.' I love the army as a body of brave and worthy men, but I would not facrifice the kingdom to their benefit. Now, Sir, if minifters really mean economy, they will agree with this amendment of mine; if not, they will amufe us with words only.

MR. GEORGE PONSONBY-I wish not, Sir, to speak to the question, but to advert to fome expreffions that fell from the Right Honourable Baronet who made the motion, in which hè glances fome reflection on the perfon who filled that chair before you, whofe conduct, I am certain, will ftand the teft of the most minute enquiry; nor can any hints from a man whofe perfon and opinions I hold in like contempt have weight with me. I know every fuggeftion he can make on that head is falfe. [Mr. Ponsonby then, with a warmth that does honour to his filial piety, entered into a short defence of his father's conduct, (the Right Honourable John Ponsonby, who was alluded to) and ended with an eulogium on the adminiftration here, and in England, hinting that Mr. Flood had fupported the administration of Lord Townshend, when the augmentation of the army took place.]

MR. FLOOD-I fupported not Mr. Ponfonby's intereft, but opposed Lord Townshend's adminiftration. This I fay to exculpate Mr. Ponfonby from the charge of ingratitude; for, when I felt the hand of power, Mr. Ponsonby did not fupport me: but I never look at fuch little things as the interests of particular men or their parties; they appear great, indeed, to the men who are engaged in them, but in the eyes of the man who contemplates the public welfare they vanish into nothing. Had I been his father's fupporter, the honourable gentleman but ill requited me, when in his loudeft tone he cried out to have me difmiffed, and feemed to reproach minifters with pufillanimity for delaying the sentence. He declared, indeed, that he had no perfonal diflike to me, but it was only to oblige one or two particular friends; yet the gentleman boafts of whig principles, whig connections: whig friends

he

he

may juftly boaft, but fuch conduct was a manifestation of whig apoftacy. God and nature have established this limit to power-it cannot long fubfift divefted of rectitude. Do we mean to take up the work of retrenchment ourfelves, or fhall we leave it to others to do it for us? Shall we retrench our own expences, or leave it to others to œconomize for us? If we proceed upon this bufinefs, the people will ftand grateful and admiring fpectators of our progrefs; if not, they may perhaps take it up themfelves. Let us, then, act honeftly; let us tell Great Britain what no man can deny, that the military is the place to make retrenchment. I will fuppofe minifters as good as any man can wish; but it is our duty to give them opportunities of exercifing their honeft intentions.

MR. GEORGE PONSONBY.-I did not call upon adminiftration to turn the right honourable gentleman from his employment; he was then in oppofition; and I faid, that I was not, for my part, afraid to lose a profitable employ

ment.

[The Speaker called the gentlemen to order, and faid no mention could be made in that Houfe of any thing which had paffed formerly.]

MR. BUSHE-The refolution requires time to confider it; it involves much matter. I recollect, indeed, our fending 4000 men to die in the Weft Indies, at a time when we dared not fend a fhroud to bury them in. Why do we appoint a committee of accounts, if we do their business before they meet? MR. PELHAM-I am really an enemy to previous questions, and would rather meet the right honourable baronet's motion itself. The queftion is fuch a one as I would readily accede to, for I am flattered and encouraged by what the right honourable gentleman has faid on the occafion refpecting both kingdoms. But can any harm refult from poffeffing ourselves of every poffible information: you have an advantage in this kingdom we have not in England, of feeing the accounts of the two last years, by which you may with fome degree of certainty be diVOL. III.

rected in your future provifions. Now, Sir, if the right honourable mover will make his motion as an instruction to the committee of accounts, I have no objection to it; and, from the known integrity and experience of the gentlemen who have managed the establish→ ments for the two laft years, I have the moft flattering hope of every requifiteaffiftance in effecting all poffible retrenchments.

THE PRIME SERJEANT declared his difapprobation of the motion, as premature; the committee of accounts not having as yet entered upon bufinefs.

MR. GRATTAN-f fhall not trouble you long, nor take up the time of. the House by apologizing for bodily infirmity, or the affectation of infirmi ty. Ifhall not speak of myself, or enter into a defence of my character, hav ing never apoftatized. I think it not neceffary for the Houfe now to inve ftigate what we know to be a fact. I think it would be better to go into the business, as the House did upon another occafion, without waiting the formality of the committee's report. As to myfelf, the honourable reward that a grateful nation has bestowed upon me, for ever binds me to make every return in my power, and particularly to oppofe every unneceffary expence. I am far from thinking with the honourable gentleman, as to the fpeech; and I believe he will find inftances where œconomy has been recommended from the throne, but prodigality practifed. This was the cafe in Lord Harcourt's administrationan administration which had the fupport of the honourable gentleman; and therefore he, of all men, cannot be at a lofs to reject that illufory œconomy which has fo often appeared in the fpeeches of lord-lieutenants. With refpect to the Genevefe, I never could have thought it poffible to give the fpeech fuch a bias as has been mentioned; and people will be deceived, if they give credit to any declamation that infers from the words of the fpeech any thing but an honeft economy in applying the public money fairly to their ufe. The nation has derived 2. N

great

both; you tell the nation it is ruined by other men, when it is fold by you -you fled from the Embargo-you fled from the Mutiny-bill-you fled from the Sugar-bill. I therefore tell you, in the face of your country, before all the world, and in your very beard-you are not an honeft man!' MR. FLOOD-I have heard a very extraordinary harangue indeed, and I challenge any man to fay that any thing half fo unwarrantable was ever uttered in the Houfe. The right honourable gentleman fet out with declaring, he did not wish to ufe perfonality, and no fooner has he opened his mouth, than forth iffues all the venom that ingenuity and difappointed vanity, for two years brooding over corruption, has produced-but it cannot taint my public character: four and twenty years employed in your fervice has established that; and, as to my private, let that be learned from my tenants, from my friends, from thofe under my own roof-to thofe I appeal, and this appeal I boldly make, with utter contempt of infinuations, falfe as they are illiberal! The whole force of what has been faid refts upon this, that I once accepted an office, and this is called apoftacy; but is a man the lefs a patriot for being an honeft fervant of the Crown? As to me, I took as great a part with the first office of the ftate at my back, as ever the right honourable gentleman did with mendicancy behind him!

Mr. Flood rofe again, and was proceeding when the Speaker at laft rofe, and called for the support of the Houfe, to keep the gentlemen in order; and, on Mr. John Burke's moving, that the gentlemen might be made to promise that nothing farther fhould pafs between them, the Houfe was cleared; during which, Mr. Flood and Mr. Grattan difappeared.

After fome farther debate on the motion then under the confideration of the Houfe, the general fenfe of the members appearing to be against it, it was negatived without a divifion.

At eleven o'clock the queftion of adjournment was agreed to; when Mr. Fofter called the attention of the

Houfe, by informing the Speaker, that he thought it would be proper for the prefervation of the peace, and to prevent any mifchief that might enfue from the unhappy difference that arofe between two members of that House, as alfo for the dignity of the House, that a mode fhould be ftruck out for taking them into cuftody, either by the Serjeant at Arms, the sheriffs of the city, or fome other perfons appointed for that purpofe; which being fettled, (after the Provost, Mr. Bennet, Mr. Gardiner, the Recorder, and fome other members had fpoke to the bufinefs) the Speaker, attended by se. veral members, moft patiently waited a full hour, when General Luttrell in formed the Speaker, that a magiftrate (Alderman Exfhaw) who had taken one of the members (Mr. Flood) into cuf, tody, was then at the bar, and requested he would lay his commands on him, to have the faid member forth-coming in the morning, and to use his belt endeavours for taking the other into cuftody. The Recorder, likewise, by confent of the Houfe, iffued a warrant for that purpose; after which the House adjourned.

This morning Mr. Flood and Mr. Grattan were brought before Lord Chief Juftice Annaly; the former by Alderman Exfhaw, and the latter by Sheriff Kirkpatrick. His lordship, after fevere, but friendly reprimands, and official admonitions, bound them both over to the peace, in recognizances of 20,000l. each.

It appears that Mr. Flood and Mr. Grattan, attended by their refpective friends, had almoft reached the ground appointed for a ferious interview, when they were taken into fafe cuftody, through the vigilance of the magiftrates, before they arrived at Ballybough Bridge.

Mr. Flood has afferted that, previous to the commencement of this feffion, he fent a friend to Mr. Grattan, defiring that all perfonal animofity might ceafe, and that their former differences of opinion might not be brought in any manner before the

Houfe;