to be your lordship's obedient humble Right Rev. Dr. P." compliance on my part with the orders orders serv of the propaganda. Saturday was 26th day after I had solicited to be made acquainted with your lordship's pleasure. I cannot imagine to what your The public will see how materially lordship's objection particularly refers the colour of the transactions rebut as I have no reason for clinging to ferred to is heightened by the supor affectionating that particular form of pression of all mention of the above apology, if I can accept the one which letters, and may be induced to susyour lordship has taken the trouble to pen, I shall readily adopt it, and sub-pend its judgment until a detailed stitute it for the other-it being my sin-history of the whole affair, already cere wish to be reconciled, and to seize in a state of preparation, shall be any opportunity of testifying to your published. lordship my humble submission and Ab uno disce omnes." profound respect. I have the honour-re-street, May 7th, 1817. * Delivered at a quarter after three, P. M. PARLIAMENTARY REPORT. CATHOLIC CLAIMS. Mr. GRATTAN rose, and moved that the petition of the Roman catholics of Ireland, presented to the house of com and, therefore, the house must legislate to the best of its judgment, with a view to the ultimate satisfaction of one party, and the immediate relief of another.-I have read which the 26th of April, 1816, be read. the report, which my learned and most mops on It was read accordingly. The honourable Mr. Elliott moved, that the petition of the Roman catholics of England, which was presented to the house on the 21st of May, 1816, be read. This being done, 66 useful friend (Sir J. C. Hippisley), has presented to the house, which has clearly shewn you, that, in all the great countries in Europe, there are a civil and mili tary toleration, incorporation and qualification for all religious sects-that there Mr. GRATTAN then rose, and said- exists a connection between the clergy and Having been applied to by the Roman the government, so as to preclude the dancatholics of Ireland to bring their caseger of foreign influence-and that England under the consideration of the house, I is almost the only country where such an shall now proceed to discharge the duty I arrangement has not yet been made. I have undertaken. But, sir, it is not my beg to observe, that there is now every intention at present to go into this import-reason to hope-that there is no reason to ant question. I shall entreat the indulgence of the house to hear my sentiments fully by way of reply. Upon a question of this sort, which has been debated in this house so often, it would be monstrous presumption in me to expect to be heard twice in the course of one night; I shall, therefore, request the indulgence of the bouse for my reply-and shall now trouble gentlemen but for a very few minutes. The resolution I intend to move is for a Committee to take the laws affecting the Roman catholics into considèration. It is the motion which was carried in 1813- and does nothing more than pledge the house to examine the penal laws, with a view to relieve the catholics-to give every security to the protestant establishment-and, ultimately, to impart satisfaction to all orders of men in the empire. say ultimate satisfaction-because, in such a question as this, the hope of giving immediate satisfaction to every order of men, is a matter of utter impossibility; doubt-but that securities may be had, and such securities as the house will perhaps think desirable. There may be domestic nomination-there may be a veto-there may be both!-Now you may command your own securities-and therefore, let not gentlemen say, "We cannot accede to Catholic Emancipation, because we have no securities. The question is, will you' endanger the safety of your own church, in order to exclude the catholics from the constitution?-You now have securities both for church and state, at your.command. If you exclude the catholics-if you keep from them civil and military rights-will you not say, that you will exclude the protestant church and the protestaut settlement from security? That is to declare, that you will prefer to the securities which your fellow subjects offerand which have so often been represented as necessary to the safety of the church and state-a monopoly-the monopoly of power-the monopoly of seats in parlia So curity of the united kingdom, the stability of the protestant establishment, and the general satisfaction and concord of all classes of his majesty's subjects.", "I beg," continued Mr. Grattan, "just to say this-that my idea is not, in any degree whatever, to put it out of the power of this house, to insist on full satisfaction relative to the proffered securities, before they proceed to legislate; so that nothing that shall occur in the house, either now or at any future period, shall be considered operative, unless the house be perfectly satisfied that the securities offered will in sure the safety of the protestant church and state." The motion, being seconded by Mr. W. Elliott, was then put from the chair. ment—the monopoly of civil and military offices. Is it not to say, that you will prefer this power, not to the freedom of your Roman catholic fellow-subjects, but to the security of the protestant church? that it will appear, that, having called for securities, in order to justify you in granting liberty, you now refuse them, when offered, and exclude the catholics, in order to prevent them from participating in that power which they were expected to share. I beg leave to say, that the present question is not about the means by which securities | may be effected. I will not debate that point. The question is whether any securities whatever will be received? Let me tell you why. There is a communication betwen the pope and the catholic clergywhich must end either in incorporation MR. LESLIE FOSTER observed, that with the see of Rome, or connection with the right hon. gentleman had said that the the government of England-and, if the question of the catholic claims was now latter be refused, it will be dangerous to submitted to the consideration of the house the safety of England. You will have the under circumstances in some respects mate catholic clergy incorporated with the seerially different from those of any former of Rome-and the catholic laity discorporated from the people of England.—I | shall go into a committee to move the repeal of the laws that disqualify the catholics from civil, military, and naval power, subject to such arrangements as may be judged necessary for the safety of the protestant religion, the act of settlement, and the government of Great Britain-that is to say, subject to such provisions as you will feel necessary for the security of your church and state. That, if you choose | to adopt the resolution, you may shew to the world, that you have ceased to be the only great country in Europe that withheld | those rights-but that you are ready to give franchises-that you are willing to grant a participation in the benefits of your constitution-to your catholic fellowsubjects. This will acquit you with regard to your having a just idea of the principles of liberty whilst the securities you will receive, will effectually protect your civil aud religious privileges. Give to the catholics all they require, taking care that your church is properly protected. This is the principle on which the question will stand, and the point which you must ultimately concede. With respect to safeguards, I think it is clear, that there is no man, when he procures rights, which he considers inestimable, that ought not to give you those securities, which, while they do not trench on the catholic church, afford strength and safety to the protestant religion. I shall now move "That this house do resolve itself into a committee of the whole house, to take into its most serious consideration the state of the laws affecting his majesty's Roman catholic subjects in Great Britain and Ireland—with a view to such a final and conciliatory adjustment of them, as will be conducive to the peace, strength, and se It period. The house would have the good- history of papal Rome. The protestants had seen He meant no disrespect to the right hon. gentleman by using this expression, which was applicable, not to him, but to the na. ture and character of this proposal. Domestic nomination was no new thing. It offered nothing that was not customary, or that had not been so for ages. It was material however, that the house should be correctly informed of the present manner of nominating catholic bishops in Ireland, in order that they might judge of the value of this offer. He had been told on very good authority, that when an Irish Roman catholic bishop died,a committee of catholic bishops (how they were selected he knew not)was called together which, committee recommended to the see of Rome a successor. It was so much a matter of course that the individual so recommended should be appointed by the pope, that only one or two instances had occurred of any difficulty in the appointment. The committee invariably recommended the coadjutor of the deceased bishop, who was appointed by him in his life time; so that it was evident the appointment of the bishops was nothing more nor less than a devise, and was in no degree dependent on the see of Rome. He had heard that it was proposed to inake some change in the mode of appointment, which was in future to be unbiassed by the predecessor. To the Roman catbolics that might be a material alteration, but to the protestants it was quite indifferent. One mode was just as much domestic nomination as the other. The matter then stood thus, that in cousideration of the protestants revoking the penal code, so much affecting catholics, removing from them all the enactments by which they had been so severely oppressed, and admitting them to an equal participation of all civil privileges, they were to obtain from the catholics in return, nothing, but that matters should stand exactly as they were! The important concession offered by the catholics was, that in times to come Irish catholic bishops should be nominated as they had been in times past! If this was really the state of the case, if nothing new, as he had shown, had been offered, was he not fully justified in characterising that offer as illusory? He would proceed to inquire into the nature of that danger which required restrictions as a defence against it. It was impossible for the protestants in Ireland to view without apprehension,a population of 4 millions, depending for their education, habits, morals, principles,and attachment to the government of Great Britain,on a numerous body of ecclesiastics, whom the fatal and mistaken policy of our ancestors had treated in such a manner that it was inconsistent with human nature that that body should be otherwise than alienated from that government. We might lament that which was passed, but we could not annul it. The protestants had seen that numerous body so lately proscribed, even for the discovery of any of whom a reward had been offered, who were studiously rendered a severed order, nevertheless exercising more power over the population and feelings of Ireland, than the legislative or executive authority had ever been able to obtain. The protestants had seen this order submitting to a small body of bishops; aud they had seen those catholic bishops acting with au unanimity and a perseverance in furtherance of their common interest, unparalleled, except in the an No Irish catholic bishop. But one misfortune attendant on the measure was, that it would have no effect on the person so nominated after that nomination had been confirmed by the crown. Some obscure individual, of whom the crown could know nothing, might be presented for the confirmation of the crown, and after that come firmation-after having passed through the ordeal -might assist in occasioning all that mischief which the veto was intended to prevent. The only practical security desired by any protestant of Ireland who was disposed to consent to the entire emancipation of the catholics was, some measure that might increase the attachment of the great mass of the Irish population to British con nexion, and their respect for the British religion Lu (he did not mean such a respect as would produce proselytism, but toleration). That was the only real security; and those would be the only salutary measures by which that security could be, accomplished. To him it was evident that the only expectation of achieving this important object was through the operating influence of the Romau catholic clergy upon the people. But it was extremely unnecessary for him to dilate on the veto. Conciliation was what was wanted, and no fact could be better established than that no proposition could be imagined more hateful to the catholics of Ireland of every description than the veto. The discussion of it, instead of tranquillizing Ireland, could only have the opposite effect, and promote disturbance. It was a curious fact, that when that house in a committee expressed an opinion favourable to the catholic claims with the restriction of the veto, a synod of Roman catholic bishops was holding in Dublin; and on the very day which brought to ireland the news of the vote of the house of commons, that synod of catholic bisnops published a declaration that "they would cheerfully lay down their lives rather than submit to such an interference in spiritual matters." what a situation would the country have been, had that proposition of the committee been carried into effect? If parliament had given all, and had afterwards endeavoured to carry the accompanying condition of security into effect, he believed there was no honourable gentleman who could be of opinion that the tranquillity of Ireland could have been maintained by enforcing it with so extensive a martyrdom as the declaration of the synod threatened to render in that case necessary. If such was the opinion of the catholic clergy with respect to the veto, that of the laity went hand in hand with it. At all subsequent meetings, the catholics vied with each other in finding terms sufficiently expressive of their abhorrence of the proposition. He held in his hand some resolutions agreed to at a meeting in the county of Kilkenny, which he selected not by any means as the strongest that could be found, but as affording a fair sample of the whole. These resolutions termed the veto “ja penal law, and a persecution, which, if persisted in, would shake the British empire to its founda. tions."—In the following year, the advocates of the veto in this country, imagined that they had found a powerful aid in the vicegerent of the pope. But the catholic clergy held the re. script in horror. The catholic clergy of the arch. diocese of Dublin expressed their unqualified dissent from it, and spoke of it as calculated to excite the disgust and abhorrence of every catholic. The bishop of Cloyne treated it with the utmost indig. nation, termed it detestable, and declared that were he to stand alone, while he had breath in his body he would resist the authority of such a document. He put it to the right honourable gentleman opposite, and the other friends of catholic emancipation, to say, if they believed that since the occurrence of the circumstances to which he had just adverted, the opinion of the catholic clergy, or of the catholic laity, had changed on the subject of the veto, except indeed that they perhaps regarded it with still deeper detestation? It was impossible, therefore, to consider the veto as a basis for the proposition to the house to re solve itself iuto a committee on the catholic claims. He had now endeavoured to show that neither domestic nomination, nor the veto, was such a proposition as ought to induce the house to go into the committee moved for by the right honourable gentleman. He thought he might also assume that the house was not called upon to go into a committee blindly to grope for principles and expe dients. It was incumbent on those who proposed to effect so important a change in the constitution, to point out the geueral principles which might probably satisfy the British protestants, the Irish protestants, and the Irish Roman catholics. It had on a former occasion been said to the house, "Give us a committee, and then you will see we will find securities." The experiment had been tried. The house had gone into a committee to see what could be done. That committee had groped about for principles. The mountain had laboured, and brought forth-the veto, an object at once of protestant ridicule, and of catholic abhorrence. He repeated, that before the house could be fairly called upon to go into a committee, it was iucumbent on the advocates for that committee to hold forth some proposition which there was ground for believing might, by discussion, ultimately satisfy the reasonable expectations of both protestants and catholics. Unless that were done. nothing could be effected. It was evident to him, from all he had seen and read, both of past and present times, that no such principle could now be discovered. What was there that could be discovered? what was there that could even be dreamt of, which could at all accord with the views of the protestants, which would not meet with the most absolute resistance from the catholics? At present, therefore, there could be no hope of that adjustment which the motion flattered the country with; but as the time might come when the catholics would view the subject differently, it might not now be improper to consider if there was any other basis on which the concession could be founded-if there were any other restrictions which the catholics would accept. On this subject he appealed to the universal sentiment of christendom. The house might collect the invariable opinions of all Europe on this head from the report which lay on their table. It was scarcely necessary for him to say, that he adverted to the useful labours of the honourable baronet opposite, (sir J. C. Hippisley). He would merely give a general outline of that report, leaving the details to be filled up, as he had no doubt they would be, by the honourable baronet himself. It was a curious fact, that there were but two states in Europe-Prussia and Great Britain-in which catholic bishops were suffered to exist at all. The example of Prussia, therefore, was very material as bearing on this question. In Prussia-not merely in Silesia, which was catholic, but in Prussia-there were several catholic bishops. The king, however, nominated to all the bishopricks. What was still more surprising was, that there was not a catholic priest in the Prussian dominions who was not appointed by the protestant government. There was no synod allowed to be held until its object. was ascertained, aud until it had received the express sanction of the state. No communication was allowed with the see of Rome but through the bureau of the protestant minister of state. If there was any proposition to put the Irish catholics on this footing, even if he were wild enough to suppose that they might be induced to accede to it, it would by no means be his wish that they should do so. But there were degrees of interference and restriction. Some securities of a similar nature might be devised to which no catholic objection could be made. He had heard it said by some who sought for a distinction be. tween the catholic clergyman in Ireland and the catholic clergymau in Prussia, as oue part dwelt on the fact, that in Prussia a stipend was annexed to all ecclesiastical functions, protestant or catholic. Of this distinction he could get rid in two ways. Ist He was decidedly for allowing the catholic clergy in Ireland stipends, convinced as he was that no possible system of countercheck, such as that in Prussia, could be otherwise established in Ireland. But the second and more substantial answer was, that it was impossible, if the interference of the king of Prussia in the appointment of catholic bishops interfered with the spiritual authority of the pope, that the pope could ever have consented to it. It was said he gave aliquod spirituale pro aliquo temporali; but the fact of his having acquiesced in such a bargain, was a proof that he only gave up a temporal privilege. As to the other protestant states in Europe, Hollaud, Denmark, Sweden, &c. no Roman catholic bishops were permitted to reside, and the inferior catholic clergy were prohibited from holding any intercourse with the see of Rome, except through the respective governments of these states. If, therefore, the parliament consented to grant the full partici. pation of all civil rights on the catholics, it would be to try an experiment which no state in Europe had ever made; and when the right honourable gentlemau (Mr. Grattan) spoke of this country as the only intolerant state in Europe, he should have also added, that if it adopted the course Dow recommended, it would be the only protestaut government which ever veutured such a trial. In Russia, the catholic bishop was appointed by the' emperor; but it was said in a work of great authority on the question (the Edinburgh Review) that there was less difference between the Greek church and the catholics than between the catholics and protestants. This was not the fact, as the Greek church differed from the Romish in all the points at issue between the latter and the western reformers, aud besides esteemed the pope and his adherents madmen, schismatics. But notwithstanding this, when the empress of Russia proposed to give a stipend to the catholic archbishop of Mohilew, and to appoint that officer, the proposal was gladly accepted by the see of Rome. A regulation which the pope could accept under a Greek emperor, he could not object to under a protestant king of Great Britain, on any religious principle; and if the objection was merely political, he should on that account be more disposed to insist on the enforcement. Thus much as to the states which dissented from the church of Rome. As to the catholic states, there were none, great or small, enlightened or ignorant, which permitted any communication between their clergy and the sée of Rome, except with their own privity; and in all states, with some inconsiderable exceptions, in the case of a few sees in Naples, the bishops were appointed by the sovereigns of the respective countries and not by the pope. In Spain, where it would be expected there would be the most superstitious attachment to the see of Rome, auy communication between a clergyman "and that see was punished by deprivation and imprisonment in Africa. Even the attoruies, who were the parties' in such a transaction, were punished by ten year's imprisonment in Africa. The free communication with Rome, which the catholic clergy were to enjoy in this country, while the laity possessed all civil rights, was a perfectly novel experiment.Indeed, all countries in Europe, catholic as well as protestant, had carefully shut out the doctrines propagated by the court of Rome for its own power and interest. These tenets, kuown by the name of Transalpine doctrines, were excluded from all Europe, excepting two spots-the one was the Vatican, the other the college of Maynooth. The reason these doctrines had obtained footing in the British dominiobs was, that instead of regulating the catholic religion, which was possible, we had attempted to exterminate it, which was impossible. As to the dogmas of the Roman church, he did not attach so much importance to them as many persons. He had calculated much on the effect which the illumination of the age would have on the catholic hierarchy; but circumstances had occurred which had driven him from that idea.→→→ The order of the jesuits had been re-established, which had before been driven from every kingdom of Europe with the detestation of the human race. There was one point in which he had given the see of Rome some credit-its tacit permission of the circulation of the holy scriptures, by that noble society which, like the angel in the Revelations, bore the Gospel through the world. This approbation he was now unfortunately compelled to retract. The pope had addressed a bull to the primate of Poland, which contained these words: "We have been truly shocked at this most crafty device, by which the very foundations of religion are undermined; and having, because of the great importance of the subject, conferred in council with our venerable brethren, the cardinals of the holy roman church, we have, with the utmost care and attention, deliberated upon the measures proper to be adopted by our pontifical authority, in order to remedy and abolish the pestilence as far as possible. In the mean time, we heartily congratulate you, venerable brother, and we commend you again and again in the Lord, as it is fit we should, upon the singular seal you have displayed under circumstances so dangerous to christianity, in having denounced to the apostolic see, this defilement of the faith, so imminently dangerous to souls, And although we perceive that it is not at all necessary to excite him to acți, vity who is making haste, since of your own accord you have already shown au ardent desire to detect and overthrow the impious machinations of these innovators; yet, in conformity with our office, we again and again exhort you, that whatever you can achieve by power, provide for by counsel, or effect by authority, you will daily execute with the ut most earnestness, placing yourself as a wall for the house of Israel." These sentiments from a modern pope did not fall short of any thing which the reformers had ob. jected to the catholics in their worst times. There was another document he should refer to, which he thought was entitled to some weight. It was the work of a catholic clergymau iu this country, Mr. Gandolphy, but the circumstances under which it was published gave it importance. It had been printed in this country, and professed to contain a clear exposition of the catholic religion. It was seen by Dr. Poynter, and by him suppressed as uufit for circulation. Mr. Gandolphy submitted, |
