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be difordered, and could only be reftored did not pay more than 20,000l. a year, by a new mechanifm. Juft fo the confti and they fent 42 members to parliament. tution, once altered, could never be re One fide of Oxford Street had a right to ftored, without having recourfe to first vote, the other fide had not. He thought principles. Were any one to afk if the it a hard cafe for those who held tenures A grievances complained of were fuch as to for 99 years, to a great amount, thould induce the neceffity of any change, he be excluded from voting, when freehold would honeftly answer, he faw no fuch ers of 40s. a year enjoyed that privilege. neceffity. If, however, he was to give his With regard to the ftory of the man with opinion whether the addition of one more the lame leg, Mr. Byng faid, it bore no knight of the fhire to each county would analogy. The man was a cripple born, be an additional fecurity to the freedom of and confequently was as perfect as ever the fubject, he would as honeftly anfwer g he was in his life, and could not he made B in the affirmative; however, experience, better than he then was; whereas the which is better than all the theories in the conftitution was, in its original ftate, as world, has fhewn, that, though we might perfect as human wisdom could frame it, probably be the better for it, we can cer- but it is now fo deformed and debilitated tainly exift to every good purpofe with- by abufe and ill habits, that it fcarce bears out it. And having now, he said, deli the features of its first deportment. He vered his fentiments on this occafion with was happy, he faid, to get any thing by the fame freedom with which he expref- Cway of reftoring it, though he was afraid fed himself when the fame fubject was laft what was now intended would go but a year under difcuffion, it remained only little way to remove its deformity. for him to declare, as a pledge of his fin- Lord Mulgrave obferved, that before cerity, that, though he boldly profeft to men fhould indulge the vifionary fancies think the burgage tenures in a particular of a perfect conftitution, they fhould be manner the fortreffes against the influence gin with reforming human nature. of minifters, he did moft earnestly intreat an honeft independent member of parliathat he might be permitted to furrenderment, he muft reprobate all ideas of the most precious interefts he poffeffed as patching up the conftitution. If it wants a voluntary facrifice to be offered up at repair, the prefent mode was not the way the thrine of the Conftitution. The pre- to reflore it. Every precaution to precedent, he faid, could affect no one but vent corruption and undue influence, that himself, volenti non fit injuria; and it could be taken, had already been taken. was of little confequence, provided the What law can be devifed more forcible conftitution was confirmed, whether he than that which obliges every member, or his pofterity fhould ever have a feat in who accepts a place, to vacate his teat in that houfe. He added that, fhould a re- this Houle? and yet how few placemen form take place, he fhould prefume fo are excluded by that law! In a free far as to with that those two members country, where every man has a feparate which he was to offer up, might be trans- intereft in view, to expect a perfe& referred to the Bank of England. prefentation of the people is to expect a reprefentation fuch as we fee it. The reprefentatives of the people are not expected to be angels, but men, with paffions like their own. They are fent ro parliament to confult the public intereft, and fo far as that coincides with their own they will pursue it. The propofiGtions go to prevent bribery and corrup tion at elections. But will that be the cafe? Will men, who have finister views in voting for two members, relinquish thofe views becaufe they have three to vote for!? To increase the number of re prefentatives was, in his Lordship's opi nion, the ready way to increase the evil Hit was intended to redrefs; for which reafon he should vote for the order of the day.

Sir G. Savile began to fpeak in favour F of the motion, but finding himself fo ill that he could not proceed, he fat down, to the great difappointment of the Houfe. Mr. Byng took up the argument where the laft fpeaker left it. He contended, that innovations and incroachments had been made on the part of the crown, and that it behoved parliament to bring back the conftitution to its original form. He begged leave to remind the House of a petition prefented by him from the Tower Hamlets, which petition was as ftrong a proof as could be adduced in favour of the refolutions propofed by the hon. member [Mr. W. Pitt] oppofite to him. The eastern part of London, called The Tower Hamlets, paid 34,000l. a year land tax, and they were unreprefented in parliament. The county of Cornwall

Lord North role, and the Houfe was all attention. He began by paying a very

high compliment to the right hon. mem- ment to discover. To remedy thefe fupber who moved the propofitions. He had pofed grievances, one hundred knights are never liftened, he faid, with fo much care demanded; but I fay, Not fifty! What! to any fpeech, and he must do that Hon. A not fifty! No, not one. I muft, faid his Gent, the juftice to fay, he had never in Lordship, fee better grounds for the dehis life been better paid for his attention. mand before I venture to comply with it. The gentleman had prefaced his motion The favourers of the measure, finding no by expreting the dread he felt in touch- real grounds to fupport it, have been ing fo venerable a fubject as the conftitu- fruitful in imaginary ones. The Ame tion, though for the purpose of amending rican war, with all its horrors and misit. The expreffion was the expreflion of fortunes, have been pathetically dressed found fenfe. The attempt was of the Bup, and laid at the door of a worn-out, moft delicate nature. It was to tamper battered, and enfeebled conftitution. The with that fabric which for ages had flood American, fay they, was the war of the the boaft of Britons, and the envy and Crown. I deny it. It was of Parlia the admiration of all the world befides. ment. It was the war of the people. It And on what ground? Ought not every was undertaken for the exprefs purpose Englishman, blefled with fuch a pre-emi- of maintaining the rights of parliament nent form of government, to paufe a mo- or, in other words, of the people of Greas ment before he proceeded to lay violent C Britain over the dependencies of the em hands on fuch a conftitution, and that on pire. For this reafon, it was popular at no better foundation than the mere fancy its commencement, and eagerly embraced of its being difordered, independent of by the people and parliament. Could the any folid evidence of diftemper? Neither influence of the Crown have produced the right hon. member who made the mo- fuch majorities as went almost to unanition, nor any of those able gentlemen who mity? Or if it could have produced thefe fupported it, had adduced the fmalleft majorities within doors, could it have proof of the existence of the diforder Dproduced the almoft unanimous approwhich they were fo anxious to remedy; bation beftowed upon it without doors? nor did they offer to the Houfe one in- Nor did it cease to be popular till, by a ftance of any originating from a decay of feries of the most unparalleled difafters the conftitution which they affected to to and calamities, the people, wearied out deplore. The force of declamation in- with ill fuccefs and misfortune, began to deed had been tried, to affect the pallions, call out as loudly for peace, as they had by reprefenting evils, misfortunes, and formerly done for war. Had the confticalamities, which had no more to dotution been in fault, how comes it to pafs with the conftitution than the earthquake at Lifbon with the government of the people. The American war, and the caules of it, have long been themes fruitful of invective. As to himfelf, he was free to acknowledge, at all times, the hand which he had in it. [A cry of Hear him! Hear him!] By the cry of Hear him! faid his Lordship, gentlemen feem to think I am going to make a confeffion-they never were more mistaken in their lives. Let guilt confefs; I know of none. An Hon. Gent. near me [Mr. T. Pitt] has faid, that the conftitution is unfound, vibrating to and fro for want of fomething to keep it fteady. He defcribes the Crown, by virtue of its influence, as keeping a wicked miniftry in office against the fenfe of the people; and he defcribes the fame powerful Crown as ftript of all power, and led into captivity. How the Hon. Gent. can reconcile fuch jarring defcriptions is for him to explain; but that neither of them can be true, and that poffibly both of them may be falfe, needs very little difcern

that the voice of the people prevailed a gainst the influence of the Crown? This is a recent tranfaction. The war was the war of the people. The peace has been the peace of the people. Where then is the influence of the Crown, against which fo great a clamour has been raised? Haa it, fince that period, broke beyond its bounds? Not a title of any fuch grounds, is pretended, either by petition or in ar gument. It was faid, when the Rt. Hon. Gent. fit brought forward this business, that the attempt was too precipitate. Les it reft a little. Between that and the fol-. Glowing feffion, the people would have time to reflect, and their fenfe might be then more clearly collected. What has been the refult? Why only fourteen out of forty-two counties have petititioned at all; and of thofe fourteen not a tenth of the freeholders have fubfcribed to the petitions. Upon the whole, there are not more than 20,000 names to all the peti tions; and from this comparatively inconfiderable number we are to collect the fenfe of the people of England, and con

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clude that they are friends to the propof- "wild affertions, that there is no cor* ed reform. But it is not to the paucity"rupt influence in the crown which deof the numbers that he would ground his "ftroys the independence of this House. chief objection; it is to the manner in "There is a bill now printed for the which thofe names were procured; not "ufe of the Houfe, to remedy every from meetings for public utility, but grievance in point of expence and brifrom private cabals. The affizes are held "bery at elections, and on that, ground twice a year, the feffions four times. On "alone I fhould think myfelf juftified all thofe occafions the inhabitants of each "in putting my negative on the propocounty may be faid to meet in the fairest "fitions now under confideration; but and moft indifcriminate manner, at which "when to this circumflance is added the it may in candour be fuppofed the real "want of any proof of diforder in this fenfe of the mafs of the people might beft B" glorious fabrick, as the right hon. be collected. Was this the manner in mover jufly ftyled our conflitution; which the petitions were fet on foot? By "when a remedy is fought for a disease, no means. County meetings, as they are "I know not what; when the puny called, where projectors, with fet fpeeches "voice of a few difcontented people and ready-framed petitions, were there "breaks in upon the tranquillity and reprepared to meet a number of prejudiced "verend filence of the vaft and fatished people, who came incited to fign that which was ready for their fignature. The queftion was begged, or borrowed, or ftolen, hofpitably to accommodate the craving appetites of fuch craving guefts. Thofe who liked neither the invitation, nor the fare, very prudently remained at their own homes. And the queftion

now, in fhort, is, To whom are we to' pay refpect, the few reformers, or the contented multitude? Can this be a ferious queflion? [A cry of Hear him! Hear him!] I perceive, faid his Lordship, it cannot. He then concluded that nothing more was neceffary to convince the Houfe that the fenfe of the people

was against the reform.

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multitude; when the difcontented are "at variance among themfelves with re"fpect to the nature of their grievances, and the modes of their redrefs; when, "I fay, all these things are confidered, a " doubt cannot remain a moment on my "mind of the weak nefs of giving way to this froward humour, this fpirit of perfecution. A gentleman behind me "Mr. T. Pitt] fays, Give the people fifty knights, and then make a stand." I "oppofe this idea: The addition of fifty

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county members would give a decided "fuperiority to the landed interest over "the commercial; and it is the beauty "of the conftitution of the House of

Commons, that, like the general fabric "of the British Conftitution, it provides "for and preferves the due balance be"tween the feveral great interefts of the "empire, the landed, the commercial, "and the monied. Do not, therefore, "let us begin. Principiis obfta. Let us Fact like men. We do not fland here as the deputies, but the reprefentatives, "of the people. We are not to refer to "them before we determine. We stand "here as they would ftand-to use our "own difcretion, without fecking any "other guidance under heaven. Let me

He next adverted to an infinuation thrown out refpecting bad minifters being continued in office against the voice of the people, by the over-ruling influence of the Crown. "This," faid his Lordship, "is not a random ftroke; from "the quarter from whence it comes, it "may be known. I will not affect to "think it is not levelled at me; but I "truft the candid and difcerning part of "the Houfe will fee that the attack is moft unjuft. I was not, when I was "honoured with office, a minister of "chance, or a creature of whom parlia-G" then conjure you to act like men, and "ment had no experience. I was found among you when I was fo honoured. "I had been long known to you. In Confequence I obtained your fupport. "When that fupport was withdrawn, I "ceafed to be a minifter. I was the creature of parliament in my rife; and "when I fell I was it's victim. I have been the creature of your opinion and your power; and the hillory of my political life is one proof, which will ftand against and overturn a thousand

"reject what to adopt muft inevitably "lead to ruin."-He concluded by cor dially voting for the order of the day.

Mr. T. Pitt, to explain, faid, That when he hypothetically flated two oppofite extremes under the fame form of goHvernment, he could not be fuppofed to maintain their exiftence at the fame time, and in the fame circumftances. Though, were he to apply what the noble Lord in. the blue ribband could not conceive poffible in matters of ftate, to what was now

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to be feen with refpect to individuals, it would not be found impoffible to reconcile the most glaring contradictions, and the moft oppofite extremes.

merchant more than his gains, and swell the weekly lift of the unfortunate; they never would have confented to impofitions fo grievous that the country gentleMr. Beaufoy rofe, for the first time, man finds his tenants are beggars, and A and addreffed the Houfe in a moft able that his rental is little less than a register and eloquent fpeech. If, he faid, the of hopeless debts. The noble Lord has noble Lord who fpoke laft thought it alledged, that the plan which the Right neceffary to apologize for having tref- Hon. Gent. has propofed to the Houfe is paffed on the indulgence of the House, it not confonant to the petitions of the peomight be thought prefumption in him, ple. The petitions of the people propoffeffed of little information, and unac pofe a variety of plans; that of the Right quainted with the forms of the Houfe, to B Hon. Gent. coincides with the object of venture to deliver his fentiments on a them all. That object is the establishing fubject fo delicate and fo important as a fameness of intereft between the repre that now under confideration. But, as an fentatives of the people and the people at Hon. Gent. [Mr. T. Pitt] has well ob- large. To obtain that object, it is proferved, that to reject, on one hand, all pofed to make a large addition to that reformation, would be to treat with con- clafs of the people's reprefentatives, of tempt the numerous petitions of the peo- whom it cannot indeed be faid that they ple; fo, he thought, on the other, to never will mistake the national intereft, adopt an inadequate expedient would be but of whom, with truth it may be faid, to expofe to hazard the civil and political they can have no temptation to depart bleflings we already enjoy. The peti- from it by defign. An improvement tions on your table, however they may this, which, as it offers no violence to the váry about the remedy, all concur in rights of any defcription of men, it was this, That the reprefentation of the peo- reafonable to conclude, would have been ple is partial and inadequate. To this liable to no objection, yet the noble Lord defect, not the petitioners alone, as theD has objected: he has oppofed it as an innoble Lord in the blue ribband would novation, and, in his opinion, all inno. have us believe, but the whole nation, are vations are dangerous; but that they are perfuaded the evils of the prefent times not dangerous, the advantages, civil and are to be imputed. To this caufe, what political, which the people of England ever the noble Lord may infinuate, the at this hour enjoy, are an incontrovertipeople afcribe the commencement and ble truth; for the noble Lord will not continuance of a conteft in which lofs E be hardy enough to affirm that the many was certain, advantage impoffible-the improvements made, and the changes fyftematic extravagance with which, for that have happened for the better, were a fertes of years, the expenditure of the the immediate effects of the ancient Bripublic money has been conducted - the tifh conftitution. In ancient times the exorbitant premiums that have been towns and cities were built on the degiven on the public loans and the mefne lands of the king, or fome poweralarming increafe of the national debt, F ful baron, and the lord had a right to now rendered irredeemable by fifty mil- confer upon his town the privileges of a lions of money being added to that debt, borough. In ancient times the fovereigns more than the nation had received. The of Britain had the right of increasing, at people know that in private life the man pleasure, the number of boroughs fend who fhould borrow on the fame terms as ing reprefentatives to parliament. In an the nation has borrowed, muft either bor- cient times, the fovereign frequently dirow but little, or his circumstances, what- rected the principal manufacturing towns to fend reprefentatives to the Council of Trade. This council was not the fame with that affembly which granted sup. plies to his Majefty; and it was not till the reign of the third Edward, that the Houfe of Commons itself affumed the power of rejecting laws to which they had not exprefsly given their confent. [Here Mr. B. enumerated the feveral changes the British conftitution had undergone, from the Saxon times till the establiment of Magna Charta, and from

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ever his income, muft foon become def-G
perate. The people know too that the pre-
fent ftate of their reprefentation is radical
ly defective. There is not a man within
doors or without who has not acknowledg
ed as much. Had it been otherwife, their
reprefentatives never would have con-
fented to that additional load of taxesH
that weighs down the utmost induftry of
the manufacturer; they never would
have confented to thofe ruinous extremes
of legal extortion which force from the

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Magna Charta to the prefent time. But traced, and his Ldp may allude to that the Noble Lord is not the first who loud- conftitution established by Magna Charta. ly announced the dangers of innovation But have no improvements been made in England. When the followers of fince? or does his Ldp think that all Wickliffe maintained the cause of reason those innovations have been for the against that of fuperftition, "No innova- worfe? Here Mr. B. recapitulated the tion" was the cry; and the fires of perfecu- A feveral ftatutes in favour of freedom; and tion blazed in different parts of the king- concluded with obferving, that they dom. At a later period, when the King were all deviations from that ancient was declared fupreme head of the church, venerable fabric fo highly extolled by the and the ecclefiaftical power of the Pope noble Lord, and confequently innova was transferred to him, the change was tions, as much as the propofitions now called a "portentous innovation," that goffered by the Right Hon. Gent. who would inevitably lead to the ruin of moved them. The truth is, he said, government. When he heard this that our conftitution is lefs defective at maxim of "no innovation" delivered prefent than at any former period; but by the Noble Lord, his mind, he faid, it is equally true, that it is far from per overborne by the weight of his authority, fection. Liberty was always the informwas involved for a moment in fufpence ing principle of the Englifi conftitution, and doubt; but when he recollected that C and time and experience have given to the fame maxims had been delivered and that principle an extenfive but not a commaintained by the fervile advocates for plete operation. No conflitution can arbitrary power, whenever a regulation long remain unaltered that is not adapted favourable to the rights of mankind was propofed; that it was the maxim which religious zeal inferibed upon her banners when the fummoned her votaries to deeds of blood; he no longer hefitated to reprobate a maxim fo void of foundation, and fo incompatible with every improve ment, political, civil, and religious.

to the circumftances of the times and

the general difpofition of the people; for, Din proportion as the people improve in the knowledge of the means and ends of Government, improvements in the confti tution will be demanded, and cannot be long refufed. When the Stewarts afcend ed the throne, the circumstances of the times and the difpofitions of the people required improvement in the conftitu

It was the misfortune of that family not to difcern what was for their good. The noble Lord now diffuades us from a compliance with the prayers of the people. The noble Lord has long oppofed the wishes of the people, and the Fruin that has fucceeded has marked his administration. Very different from his were the fentiments of the greatest statef man this kingdom has ever produced, a ftatefman ftill warm in your affections, who advised the very improvement now propofed; advised it as the only means Gof invigorating a conftitution notoriously debilitated. He advifed it as the only feeurity that could be obtained against the pro fligacy of the times, the corruption of the people, and the ambition of the crown.

When the Noble Lord talked of the folly of difturbing the harmony, and de- F facing the beauty, of the venerable fabriction. of the ancient conftitution, his expreffions feemed to import (for what elfe could they mean?) that, at fome period of our hiftory, the British conftitution had attained to fuch a degree of excellence as neither required nor admitted of any farther improvement. He wished to be informed to what happy period his Ldp alluded. Surely his Lelp did not mean to refer us to the Saxon times. We know fo little of thofe times, that it is fcarcely poffible to fay what the Saxon conftitution was; but this we know, that, fo far from being fufficient for the protection of his fubjects, it was unable to preferve the life of the Sovereign. One of their Kings was murdered publicly at his own table, by an out-lawed robber; and another was unable to protect his Queen from the torture, tho' guilt lefs and unaccufed. A conftitution that cannot protect the weak, and restrain the injuftice of the ftrong, can never be that perfect conftitution to which his Ldp afcribed unimprovable excellence. In the Norman conftitution, indeed, fome thing like ariftocratical freedom is to be GENT. MAG, O&, 1783,

Mr. Sec. Fox affured the House, that he moft heartily concurred with the Rt. Hon. Gent. who made the motion. He H knew that it was the popular notion that our conftitution was beautiful in theory, but all corrupt in practice. Singular as his opinion may be, he made no feruple to avow, that he took the very reverse to be the truth. He thought it admirable in practice, but faulty in theory. The

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